‘Muslamic Ray Guns’ – the Downfall parody


by Sunny
7th April, 2011 at 6:52 pm    

Hah! If you don’t know what he’s referring to, see this post.
via @everythingEDL


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  1. sunny hundal

    Blogged: : 'Muslimic Ray Guns' – the Downfall parody http://bit.ly/h0hGR7


  2. Furqan Naeem

    RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : 'Muslimic Ray Guns' – the Downfall parody http://bit.ly/h0hGR7


  3. Amber of the Island

    RT @sunny_hundal: 'Muslamic Ray Guns' – the Downfall parody http://bit.ly/h0hGR7 < Funny as fuck :)


  4. David Levene

    RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : 'Muslimic Ray Guns' – the Downfall parody http://bit.ly/h0hGR7


  5. CathElliott

    RT @sunny_hundal: 'Muslamic Ray Guns' – the Downfall parody http://bit.ly/h0hGR7


  6. Hannah B

    RT @CathElliott: RT @sunny_hundal: 'Muslamic Ray Guns' – the Downfall parody http://bit.ly/h0hGR7


  7. Nemesis Republic

    Pickled Politics & Muslamic Rayguns: the Downfall Parody Thanks to @sunny_hundal http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/12336 #EDL


  8. Nemesis Republic

    @wearethebritish The biggest piece of Malware on Twitter is you. http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/12336 #EDL nutjobs


  9. Nemesis Republic

    Pickled Politics & Muslamic Rayguns: the Downfall Parody Thanks to @sunny_hundal http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/12336 #EDL


  10. Nemesis Republic

    @wearethebritish Never said I was an architect, fake troll. http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/12336 #EDL


  11. sunny hundal

    @oliverburkeman have you seen the downfall parody? ;) http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/12336




  1. damon — on 8th April, 2011 at 12:10 am  

    Is this true?

    …. the ‘Muslamic Ray Gun’ video clip is a kind of porn for liberals. It bolsters their smug sense of superiority, allowing them to dismiss the EDL as a joke, a grouping of the confused and the thick which means it simply isn’t worth engaging with.

    http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10375/

    I said I thought the guy was of very low inteligence a couple of weeks ago. And easy to mock for that.
    But matbe taking that view is just being contrarian.

  2. Sunny — on 8th April, 2011 at 1:02 am  

    *sigh*

    Spiked online in ‘liberals hate the working class’ shocker! well colour me surprised…

  3. earwicga — on 8th April, 2011 at 2:14 am  

    For the first time ever I agree with something damon has quoted from Spiked. Beam me up Scotty.

    This video is a step beyond that though. It’s fucking genius and I love it :)

  4. Refresh — on 8th April, 2011 at 3:09 am  

    I do believe you can hold both thoughts. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

    And if EDL seek to recruit and brainwash the ill-informed then that has to be brought out into the open as graphically as possible.

    The issue is the EDL and not this person specifically.

    The brainwashing is not irreversible. We need a deck of cards, a bit like the US Army in Iraq, only more benign. High profile targets for counselling – with this individual as the ace of spades. Now that really would be a coup. Then he can learn who really stuffed the working class (white and non-white).

    I’ve only ever bought one single in my entire life, but if the muslamic ray gun rap was released I am sure it would be my second such purchase. And it makes an excellent ringtone.

  5. Boyo — on 8th April, 2011 at 6:11 am  

    This made me laugh…

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12900460

    Where there’s muck, there’s brass…

  6. Boyo — on 8th April, 2011 at 6:23 am  

    Very funny. “It’s okay Anna, Rochdale is a shithole”.

    Also reminds me what a fab film Downfall was.

    Not sure about the Newsnight jibe though – I thought the consensus was he knocked Paxo for six…

  7. MaidMarian — on 8th April, 2011 at 9:00 am  

    Thing is though Sunny that Spiked were not entirely wrong on this one – really it isn’t that funny.

    I like a good sneer as much as the next man, and certainly yes, someone getting it all off their chest in a pretty incoherent way makes for an easy target. But somehow the way this has been pounced on seems a bit wrong.

  8. damon — on 8th April, 2011 at 9:26 am  

    So we have Sunny .. and we have Earwicga. Who is better?

    I thought it was at least worth taking into consideration. There really is such a stark divide – leaving the politics aside, between these kinds of people who turn up at EDL marches, and their opposite numbers who turn out for UKuncut demonstrations for example. It’s like chalk and cheese.

    That’s why I’ve said more than once, that I find UAF chanting ”fascist scum” at them a bit off putting.
    I have wondered if their ”otherness” made it easier to despise them.

  9. Jai — on 8th April, 2011 at 9:30 am  

    Not sure about the Newsnight jibe though – I thought the consensus was he knocked Paxo for six…

    Not necessarily. Stephen Yaxley Lennon/”Tommy Robinson” publicly sabotaged the EDL’s official claim to be opposed “only to militant Islam” by emphatically stating that he is vehemently hostile towards Islam full-stop, not just extremist interpretations of the faith (ie. “militant Islam”).

    Jeremy Paxman promptly mentioned Lennon/Robinson’s previous claims of hostility solely towards “militant Islam”; Lennon/Robinson responded by repeating the fact that, despite his earlier claims, this isn’t the case and he is now completely opposed to Islam in general.

  10. Ravi Naik — on 8th April, 2011 at 11:31 am  

    The online mockery of a young EDL member speaks volumes about liberals’ contempt for the white working classes.

    I think the irony is that this spiked article assumes that EDL and this guy somehow represent working class, and by making fun of those xenophobe inbreeds, you are making fun of white working class in general. Talk about contempt.

  11. Sunny — on 8th April, 2011 at 6:34 pm  

    I think the irony is that this spiked article assumes that EDL and this guy somehow represent working class, and by making fun of those xenophobe inbreeds, you are making fun of white working class in general. Talk about contempt.

    Not just that – I find it hilarious a bunch of middle-class twats who spend most of their time writing articles denying global warming, or complaining about the left know ANYTHING about what working class issues.

    Apparently working class people are all EDL members, and making fun of one of them means you’re dissing all of them.

  12. damon — on 8th April, 2011 at 6:45 pm  

    Ravi – OK, but the term ”white working class” is too broad then. Many of these UKuncut people protesting in Top Shop and chanting ”pay your tax” could be WWC too, but they just don’t seem to fit the profile of what is usually meant by white working class.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffYlE0lLBbI

    Sure, many WWC might be Guardian readers, members of unions etc – the kind of people who attend the Tolpuddle Martyrs Festival in Dorset every year ..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFVYS_FU4tM

    …. but even though there may be lots of trades unionists at that event, it smacks of being a very (white) middle class gathering too. Certainly not what we are talking about here.

    With the front page of The Times yesterday having the sensationalist story about Blackpool kebab shops being centres of sexual exploitation of under age girls, these stories are dificult to ”manage”.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1374443/Police-hid-abuse-60-girls-Asian-takeaway-workers-linked-Charlene-Downes-murder.html

  13. KB Player — on 8th April, 2011 at 10:17 pm  

    Ravi Naik@10 & Sunny@11

    Yeah, to say that the EDL is “representative” of the white working class is like saying that football hooligans are, or teddy boys in the 1950s.

    Linking my own links, but a few months ago I suggested that Spiked would use liberals’ fear of and contempt for the EDL as a stick to beat liberals with. I meant it as a joke, but it’s what Spiked does after all.

    http://shirazsocialist.wordpress.com/2011/04/08/you-can-bet-on-some-things/

  14. damon — on 9th April, 2011 at 12:58 am  

    KB Player, I think they mean that section of of the white working class that gets defined as such.
    It’s very important to get this clear one way or the other. You might say the traditional WWC.

    The ones that you would have seen on the terraces of Millwall FC after the war. Their descendants, who have retained much of the traditional socially conservative outlook.
    So much so have many retained this traditional outlook … that the other day on Rod Liddle’s Millwall fan site, someone mentioned that a remake of the 70s police show The Sweeney would have the white rapper ‘Plan B’ playing the role of Carter … and someone said he (Plan B) talked like ”a c*nt.”

    Plan B is a Londoner who speaks in the affected street accent that is common today amongst young Londoners, and the Millwall fans think that’s not on.

    That white working class.

    While I take on board many of the things that were said on your blog KB Player, and the links on it, I thought you spoliled it right at the end with the picture of the ”Nazi” giving a fascist salute.

    The EDL were fighting amongst themselves in Blackburn it was reported. And from what I read from their websight just now, it was the mainstream EDL fighting with known fascists who had turned up. Whether you believe them or not is another thing, and I have no clue other than what they say about it:
    http://theenglishdefenceleagueextra.blogspot.com/2011/04/those-who-tried-to-ruin-blackburn-edl.html

    So lets say, that as backward and Islamophobic as they are, there are tensions within the group/movement, and all isn’t so black and white as some would like to paint it.

    The Spiked people did give lots of actual examples for what they were arguing in that piece. This for example was on the highly respected Lancaster Unity site on the Muslamic Ray Guns youtube:

    At the risk of making this thick EDL bastard even more famous than he already is, I felt I had to post this classic conversion from a twat being interviewed to a piece of decent music. Listen – you’ll love it. And major congrats to whoever translated this into a decent tune.

    And yes he is a ”thick bastard”. Jeremy Kyle material. I even have seen a suggestion that he’s been on the JC show since. Is it ok to pour scorn on the people who appear on (and watch) the Jeremy Kyle show?

    There is a class thing going on here IMO. Respectable people are horrified by that kind of person. Not just when they are politiscised in this EDL way, but at football matches, and when they sit in cafes having their fry ups whist perusing the Daily Star. Let’s be clear; that’s who the Spiked people are talking about. The chavs.

    Spiked haven’t been outstanding in the three articles they’ve done on the EDL perhaps, but at least they have tried to place them in some context and have a look into the background of what brought them into being. I had hoped that Sunny would have expanded on that day he went to Luton and spoke with some of them.

  15. KB Player — on 9th April, 2011 at 10:25 am  

    I think it’s fine to pour scorn on anyone who acts like a dick. Joining the EDL who have a history of terrorising Asians is joining a party of dicks. Some of them may have not intended to become BNP Mark 2, but that’s what is happening and there doesn’t seem to be any way round it. If you march up and down in front of mosques you frighten ordinary people.

    Some people thought Nick Griffin was hard done by because he was so humiliated on that Newsnight programme or whatever it was. Well, he deserved it.

  16. damon — on 9th April, 2011 at 12:19 pm  

    The EDL have much in common with these Millwall supporters. They are surely of the ”I’m not a racist but …” variety, as you can see here when they discuss the lack of black Millwall fans today compared to how it was twenty and thirty years ago.

    http://www.millwall.vitalfootball.co.uk/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=60111&start=1

    Just like the EDL, they don’t have a problem with ethnic minority people particularly, but will only deal with them on their own terms. If a black guy turned up at Millwall and fitted in, and showed a bit of passion and that he was one of them … then apart for hard core racists amongst them – he was accepted.

    And KP Player, I’ve got no problem with pouring scorn on dickhead people. I am just mindful of the liberal – ”traditional WWC” divide.

    I’m off to a football match in a minute (Linfield v Glentoran in Belfast)… and to be honest, I’d rather be there amongst those fans, than be at a UKuncut rally.
    I don’t really care for the kind of people who turn out for UKuncut – even if I think they have a point politically.

    It’s one of those things that are difficult to pin down – but are quite obvious when you see them.
    I’ll see it in a minute when I walk into the club’s bar for a pre-match drink.

  17. Boyo — on 9th April, 2011 at 1:14 pm  

    “Some of them may have not intended to become BNP Mark 2, but that’s what is happening and there doesn’t seem to be any way round it.”

    From its very conception EDL has been branded BNP by the entire left spectrum (well, HP to PP), as well as the right. The only people worried about this, apart from some of those in the EDL plainly, were the BNP. Trouble is, it seems that even the BNP has now adopted “can’t beat em…” and indeed they increasingly reflect something more like the 70s NF I recall.

    All this is very well, but it doesn’t make the conclusions of the Spiked article any less relevant. My own feeling (from encounters with the WWC, ie “my people”) is that the EDL reflect their views probably to much the same extent as Muslim extremists reflect the views of the wider Muslim population – ie both not very much, but also probably more than many people might be comfortable with.

    What is depressing is the almost triumphant loathing the liberal elite feel happy to express for the extremist voice of one community, while at the same time often palling up with (or trying to “understand the concerns”) of the other.

  18. douglas clark — on 9th April, 2011 at 2:48 pm  

    damon,

    Why do you keep going on about Millwall supporters? They appear to play to crowds of around 10,000 out of a London population of, what, 9 million?

    On that I agree with boyo, perhaps they do resonate a little, but not a lot.

    On his latter point, I’ll stand corrected, but I do not recall PP (editorially) ever standing up for violent Islamist extremists.

  19. AbuF — on 9th April, 2011 at 3:36 pm  

    Spiked/RCP have always been a bunch of poseurs, engaging in the tiresome politics of “offensiveness” and iconoclasm for the sake of it.

    There is a technical term, drawn from very academic political science, for such beings:

    Utter tossers.

  20. Ravi Naik — on 9th April, 2011 at 4:09 pm  

    All this is very well, but it doesn’t make the conclusions of the Spiked article any less relevant. My own feeling (from encounters with the WWC, ie “my people”) is that the EDL reflect their views probably to much the same extent as Muslim extremists reflect the views of the wider Muslim population – ie both not very much, but also probably more than many people might be comfortable with.

    One thing you often do is to contradict yourself. If, as you say, EDL represents a small slice of extremism in WWC, then it can hardly be used as a representation of WWC in general. That is in fact the premise of the article, and if it is wrong as you state, then the conclusion has to be wrong. Nobody here maligns EDL because of class – it is because they are a bunch of bigots. Isn’t that good enough reason?

    Mind you, Nick Griffin is not part of WWC, and yet he is ridiculed for the same reason. So, I have to say the article is still rubbish.

  21. AbuF — on 9th April, 2011 at 4:52 pm  

    I must admit I find the division of the working class into “White”, “Black”, whatever, very, very disappointing.

    As a socialist I am disposed to think of the working class as class of global significance and relevance – and its stratifications in terms of socio-economic, rather than ethnic, dimensions.

    The notion of a “White Working Class” is part and parcel of exactly the sort of obsfucating, reactionary nonsense that workers should everywhere oppose.

  22. Boyo — on 9th April, 2011 at 6:02 pm  

    @18 not PP, more Madeline Bunting et al…

    @20 am I contradicting myself? I don’t mean to (although as we know, life is full of contradictions). I thought my point –

    “… reflect their views probably to much the same extent as Muslim extremists reflect the views of the wider Muslim population – ie both not very much, but also probably more than many people might be comfortable with.”

    was quite clear and not contradictory – ie, that the EDL were at one extreme of a continuum? I’m happy to be challenged about contradictions, because as much as I like a discussion, I am genuinely interested in “the truth”, such as it is.

    @21 as a socialist, I share your disappointment. But however much one may like to ignore the reality, it nonetheless exists. Certainly there is a black, white, yellow, etc WC, and vast stratas of our society, regardless of their cultural background, belong to it, but, as I argued on the thread re multiculturalism, the WWC have essentially been boxed into this position not by choice, but by the kind of identity politics prosecuted by the elite. It would be truly ironic to even deny them their identity, although certainly part of a trend… Ironically, I do not think the EDL regard themselves as WWC, but WC, if anything at all.

  23. damon — on 9th April, 2011 at 6:31 pm  

    Dear me Douglas. So you’ve noted I’ve mentioned the Millwall fans a few times – but say nothing about the point I was making by using them as an example.

    Did you never go to the old Hampden Park when England came up, or to an Old Firm game? I was at Hampden in the late 70s when England were there. It was packed out, and not one Englishman to be seen in the vast crowd. Before the game kicked off the whole ground resonated with the sung words ”We hate Jimmy Hill … he’s a poof – he’s a poof” – over and over.

    Not Millwall fans Douglas, but your countrymen. Nearly 100,000 of them. A pretty similar mindset though I think. The ‘traditional’ white working class.
    Do you understand me now?
    I know trying to talk about things like this on PP is like pulling teeth, but this is about the EDL.
    And they are a type of working class.
    I was at a match just two hours ago and the fans were singing ”The Billy Boys” song, about being up to their knees in ”fenian blood”. Dads and kids together. Not the type of ”working class” people who go on UKuncut protests.
    A different type. This type:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q08f0FNw6w&feature=related

    AbuF, you’ve said nothing really. Your comment about Spiked was a platitude. It’s so easy to say ”X, Y and Z is all rubbish” and then give no proper reason why.
    And I don’t say this to be rude. But on a debating forum, the point is to give a little more, and say something.

    Maybe PP and Liberal Conspiracy are just not the type of forums that will do that with anything like the kinds of arguments Spiked puts foreward.

    They say, (for example), that all these climate activist groups who like to do stunts and flash-mob type protests, are pretty stupid – and I think they have good reason to say that – but because Sunny’s websites actively support such actions, no analysis as to why those stunts are pointless (and middle class) ever happens.

    There’s a big gulf between how things are seen and so it’s easy for a type of liberal left to just dismiss everything they say. Even when they make good points.
    And they do quite regularly IMO.

  24. AbuF — on 9th April, 2011 at 9:14 pm  

    Damon

    If I said nothing of import, then you certainly spent an awful lot of energy dismissing the same.

    Yep, let’s take seriously idiots from Spiked/RCP who variously have denied Rwandan genocide, supported Serbian genocide, denied the existence of a connection between HIV and AIDS and supported every cranky, weird, contrarian position they can lay their well-manicured fingers on.

    Wankers.

  25. douglas clark — on 9th April, 2011 at 9:32 pm  

    damon,

    The chant I recall was:

    “Bobby Moore,
    Superstar,
    Walks like a woman,
    And he wears a bra.”

    I thought it was quite funny, but he actually played very well.

    I have sat in the stand at Hampden besides respectable – for a given value of the word respectable – Scots that have shouted far worse than that. And on the following Monday they go back to their law chambers and accountancy practices and suchlike and forget it.

    Whilst either of these chants, the one you quote or the one I quote may be homophobic or anti-transvestism, neither is, reasonably, racist.

    I did comment on the point you were making. Mainly to the effect that you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

    If there is anything whatsoever to be learned about football fans it is that football clubs like to have a USP. And fans buy into that. Usually it is territorial rivalry, sometimes it has a religious tinge and AFAIK only a fringe of Millwall supporters are out and out racists.

    Finally, the idea that football supporters are working class any more is ludicrous. At the prices being charged you need a heck of a good income to be able to afford to go regularly any more. AbuF and Boyo appear to me to be closer to the reality than you do.

  26. damon — on 9th April, 2011 at 10:20 pm  

    As a socialist I am disposed to think of the working class as class of global significance and relevance – and its stratifications in terms of socio-economic, rather than ethnic, dimensions.

    The notion of a “White Working Class” is part and parcel of exactly the sort of obsfucating, reactionary nonsense that workers should everywhere oppose.

    So what class do the EDL and the football hooligans belong to AbuF? And how about the ”NEDS” of Scotland?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr7Opycx_yY

    If you are going to call the greater part of society working class, then you really have to make some distinctions within in. Is it right to talk of the ”lumpen working class” to describe the people above? Is that what the Loyalist working class in Northern Ireland would be described as? They can hardly be considered part of a class of ”global significance and relevance”.

    If we can’t even sort these simple things out early on, there’s not much point continuing.
    Also, there is no point discussing the Spiked group as a whole and defending or attacking them wholesale.
    You might as well so the same with Pickled Politics.
    The thread titled ”The BNP and the killer questions” is considered one of PPs best, but I thought it was one of its poorest … in the same way that Spiked would have. You either get why that is, or you don’t … as trying to discuss that with people who take the other view is (it seems) impossible.

    In a previous article on the EDL, Spiked said this:

    New Labour is no longer interested in representing workers’ interests and instead attempts to remould them into ‘acceptable’ citizens, pressuring them to eat healthy food, cut down on smoking and boozing, and to become cultured through, among many other things, the social engineering that is immigration policy.

    Which is true I would say. And this too?

    Today, any disgruntlement among the working classes is seen as the ‘bigoted’ response of a class going the way of the dodo, that ought to be silenced and re-educated through diversity-awareness classes and other such initiatives. At the last General Election in 2010, discussion of immigration was treated as taboo, with politicians even agreeing to sign pledges promising they wouldn’t mention the ‘I’ word when electioneering lest it stoke racial tensions and awaken the inner fascistic tendencies presumed to lie barely dormant in the white working classes.

    http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10208/

    Again, I think it is at least a good starting point for a discussion – but AbuF, I don’t think you’re interested. Because of Bosnia, Rwanda and global warming etc. I think that’s a pity, because otherwise we’re just back at square one, just laughing at the Muslamic Ray Guns idiot, and shouting ”Fascist scum, off our streets” at the EDL whenever they show up.

  27. earwicga — on 9th April, 2011 at 11:14 pm  

    If we can’t even sort these simple things out early on, there’s not much point continuing.

    Don’t then damon. And you still haven’t answered my question above.

  28. damon — on 9th April, 2011 at 11:56 pm  

    I wondered why you asked such a question on the wrong thread Earwicga. I thought I answered on the relevant thread. The one about Camberley mosque.
    We’ll never see eye to eye on just about anything ever though. There’s such a gulf of perception.

    It’s not even possible to define the WWC, working class, or otherwise, fully here it seems. That’s pretty poor.

    If people didn’t drag their feet so much, it would all be quite easy. You’d look at these UKuncut protesters in Top Shop chanting ”pay yout tax”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffYlE0lLBbI

    - and it would be as obvious as night and day, that even if some of the Uncut protesters consider themselves working class too, they are not he same kind of people as the football casuals and the rougher end of the working class. People who are not completely at one with the politics of LBGT for example.
    Or when you have people who watched the programme about the transgendered men (former women) giving birth as men – beards and all – and they don’t get it in the way a paid-up LBGT savy liberal will get it. Because they are more socially conservative.

    But Earwicga’s right. Let’s leave all this out and just mock the ‘ray guns’ idiot.

  29. douglas clark — on 10th April, 2011 at 10:23 am  

    damon,

    You say:

    The thread titled ”The BNP and the killer questions” is considered one of PPs best, but I thought it was one of its poorest … in the same way that Spiked would have. You either get why that is, or you don’t … as trying to discuss that with people who take the other view is (it seems) impossible.

    It was one of the best series of posts and comments that there has ever been on here. It gave a voice to the rejection of something you appear to cherish. Something that made allies out of enemies, something that crystalised many peoples opinions on the mad and bad BNP.

    It was also an opportunity to define who you are. Did you take it? No, damon, not as far as I recall.

    You faff about on here with no clear idea of what you stand for – do you stand for anything? It is all moral relativism with a bias towards NEDS.

    I completely reject your idea of what the working class is, much as I now reject who you think the working class is.

    The working class are not Millwall supporters, neither are they all sweet reason.

    Take a chill pill.

  30. damon — on 10th April, 2011 at 11:09 am  

    It was one of the poorest threads Douglas, because it was much ado about nothing. As worth spending time talking about, as the Church of Scientology, or the white witches of Glastonbury.
    Sort of interesting, but not of much significance.
    Although I wouldn’t expect you to get that Douglas.
    But tell me. When was the last time you actually saw any BNP people?

    For what it’s worth, I think the Spiked people are right to slag off the liberal left of today. As, with all it’s direct action over climate change and UKuncut’s agenda and getting their knickers in a twist over ‘fascists and Nazis’ – it is actually a bit of a joke.
    The EDL are a problem of sorts – and how to tackle them is something that should be of concern. Laughing and mocking them is one way. Organising like UAF do is another. But it seems like that’s the most basic, one dimensional level. At least the three Spiked articles have attempted a bit of background analysis on the EDL.
    I undersatnd that Pickled Politics is not the forum for a discussion in that area though.

    Douglas, do me a favour. Tell me if you would call the people in the last youtube link I did ‘working class’ or not.

  31. Boyo — on 10th April, 2011 at 11:26 am  

    “But tell me. When was the last time you actually saw any BNP people?”

    Kudos ;-)

    I remember getting into hot water for saying if the BNP did not exist, then the “progressive” left would have to invent them. The immediate response to the EDL was certainly along these lines, which is not to say, as I have above, that they are not the extreme end of the spectrum, but their very idiocy is a convenient distraction.

  32. Sarah AB — on 10th April, 2011 at 11:35 am  

    “when was the last time you actually saw any BNP people?”

    Around the time of the election I asked a family connection of mine – upper WWC??? – what party he supported, in the cheerful confidence that I could live with whatever answer he might give.

    This turned out to be a mistake.

  33. Sarah AB — on 10th April, 2011 at 11:44 am  

    Douglas – I really don’t think Damon ‘cherishes’ the EDL or BNP.

  34. douglas clark — on 10th April, 2011 at 11:48 am  

    Dear damon @ 30,

    It was one of the poorest threads Douglas, because it was much ado about nothing.

    According to you.

    Whilst I am willing to accept that extremists are, just that, extremists, you embrace them and give them cuddles, love and kisses.

    I do not believe that most folk have any truck with racist morons like the BNP. You, however pretend – when you are pretending not to care one way or the other – that they are ‘salt of the earth’, ‘reasonable Millwall supporters’ or somesuch pish.

    They are racist scum, and that is my bottom line.

    They do not represent the bulk of the working class, and they certainly don’t represent me.

    You have floated around here without a fucking thought in your head for a long time.

    It is all wishy washy ‘ooh! See the working class, well they don’t think like that’

    When most working class people couldn’t give a shit. It is racists that care, and that is quite another slice through society.

    Do you actually have an opinion that you learned rather than took as inherited nonsense?

  35. douglas clark — on 10th April, 2011 at 11:50 am  

    Sarah AB,

    Douglas – I really don’t think Damon ‘cherishes’ the EDL or BNP.

    Really?

    Well lets hear damon come out and say something about that.

    He pisses around on the margins so much that it is difficult to tell.

  36. damon — on 10th April, 2011 at 1:59 pm  

    I have sat in the stand at Hampden besides respectable – for a given value of the word respectable – Scots that have shouted far worse than that. And on the following Monday they go back to their law chambers and accountancy practices and suchlike and forget it.

    You do make me laugh Douglas. Sitting in the stands with accountants and members of law chambers isn’t exactly what I meant when I was thinking of the decrepit old ”Rangers end” at Hampden with it’s cinder covered terraces, which used to cause a dust cloud to rise up over the terrace when a goal was scored.

    But anyway. I understand that internet forums like this are pretty useless unless you have the right people and there is a willingness to engage with reasonably difficult issues.
    It would be easier at least if people were reading off the same page so to speak. I saw what KB Player had to say. Looked at the links provided, and would have been willing to debate those points.
    I haven’t because I really don’t think this is the place – as the ”slow hand clap” and calls of ”boring” or even accusations of defending the BNP, EDL or whatever would surely follow.

    If someone like Douglas would have a look at some of these articles for example – by the Spiked people, on issues to do with race and the BNP …. after that we could get somewhere, as at least people would know what each other were talking about.
    http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/issues/C44/

    Of course you could dismiss all that with a wave of the hand like AbuF did and just say ”w@*kers” – but then how further on are we?

    About this far.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqeDsskcSVQ&feature=related

    Which is just a silly set piece confrontation between two sides who feed off each other. The EDL are stupid and thuggish – and their ”two minutes silence for our soldiers” is a joke. But I find the woman on the megaphone berating them almost as annoying as the EDL.

    I think it’s a ”class thing”. To me there’s just something off-putting about that kind of leftism/anti-fascism. I can’t join in with it, even though they mean well.

  37. Chris — on 10th April, 2011 at 3:38 pm  

    @ Sarah AB

    “I asked a family connection of mine … in the cheerful confidence that I could live with whatever answer he might give … This turned out to be a mistake.”

    Let’s get obligatory the ‘I am not BNP’ caveat out of the way to preempt the usual torrents of abuse that libertarians receive.

    OK. Right then.

    I would suggest don’t ask people who they intend to vote for if you can’t ‘live’ with the answer.

    This guy didn’t volunteer his politics; you asked for it and then clearly took off on a rant after his answer.

    This guy has every right to vote for whoever and whatever he wants so long as they are standing within the law. I know you will claim that you too have every right to ‘challenge’ that choice, but really what you are doing is no less then old style demand and denounce. If you ‘cant live’ with someone else’s democratic choice, don’t ask.

    I can picture the scene, having seen it done a few times in public: You working your way into an indignant rage, using every ‘ist, ‘ism and emotive motif available, implying the recipient was mentally subnormal, filled with hate and a moral scumbag, and as loud as possible to draw in as many other drones in as possible and put the dissenter firmly on the defensive. Cue much smug back slapping at the end of the denunciation. ‘Fascist outed’.

    Is that how it went, pretty much, Sarah AB? Did you even let him tell you why he chooses to exercise his democratic right the way he did?

    It is so utterly bizarre how so-called anti-fascists are always the biggest proponents for screaming down and silencing dissenters.

    Democracy cannot survive such hubris.

    Tell me Sarah, do you demand to know peoples religions too, and find you ‘cant’ live with a wrong answer? That they have made a ‘big mistake’ in ‘cheerful confidence.’

  38. Sarah AB — on 10th April, 2011 at 3:49 pm  

    I didn’t rant at all – I tend to avoid conflict (outside the blogosphere) and this was a family gathering.

  39. douglas clark — on 10th April, 2011 at 3:50 pm  

    damon,

    Err…

    You do make me laugh Douglas. Sitting in the stands with accountants and members of law chambers isn’t exactly what I meant when I was thinking of the decrepit old ”Rangers end” at Hampden with it’s cinder covered terraces, which used to cause a dust cloud to rise up over the terrace when a goal was scored.

    No damon, I don’t imagine it is what you think it is.

    You are, at best, living in a monochrome past. I am talking about the modern era, y’know after colour TV?

    How long ago are you talking about? Hampden, for all it’s faults, has been an all seater stadium for yonks. It is, frankly, an international stadium built by a girl. But it is nothing like you remember.

    Stop living in the past.

  40. Don — on 10th April, 2011 at 3:51 pm  

    Chris,

    Wow, you actually constructed a script around a comment. Were doors slammed? Were tables thumped? Or was there possibly a private re-assessment of this persons place in one’s regard.

  41. douglas clark — on 10th April, 2011 at 3:56 pm  

    Chris @ 37,

    What a load of pish.

    Are you quite sure you are not BNP?

    For, at the very least of it, you come across as a right wing fruitcake.

    Just saying.

  42. douglas clark — on 10th April, 2011 at 4:02 pm  

    damon,

    See? See who your chums are. Not very nice, are they?

  43. Chris — on 10th April, 2011 at 4:16 pm  

    @ Sarah AB

    ”I didn’t rant at all”

    Then why was his answer ‘a big mistake’? In what way? What did you do to disabuse him of his ‘cheerful confidence’ that he might just be able an extremely personal question with an extremely honest answer?

    “I tend to avoid conflict”

    Really. By arbitrarily asking people who they vote for then and making their answers into a ‘big mistake’?

    So do you ask people for their religion as well, Sarah AB?

    @ Don

    No script needed. It was all there. But do tell me what you think you were supposed to glean from that comment?

    As an older gentlemen, I’ve seen this played out many times in many different guises over many years as acceptable views change. Its nothing new, just the religious and hysterical zealousness with which the current states sponsored ‘only legitimate and moral view’ is enforced.

    @ douglas clark

    The caveat was aimed at plain old fruit cakes like you who can broach no disagreement.

    Along with the predicable BNP accusations inevitably come the insults; though never, but never, any cogent points or rationale.

    Of course I have never met Damon or have any remote awareness of who he is. But lets not let the truth get in the way of a good smear.

    Just saying.

  44. douglas clark — on 10th April, 2011 at 4:26 pm  

    Chris,

    Me old mate:

    The caveat was aimed at plain old fruit cakes like you who can broach no disagreement.

    Along with the predicable BNP accusations inevitably come the insults; though never, but never, any cogent points or rationale.

    Of course I have never met Damon or have any remote awareness of who he is. But lets not let the truth get in the way of a good smear.

    Just saying.

    Hmm…

    So you are BNP then?

    Just asking, but let’s not let any evidence get in the road. You are, aren’t you?

  45. Don — on 10th April, 2011 at 4:34 pm  

    …what you think you were supposed to glean…

    Just what I said. That a member of someone’s social circle was looked at in a different light. Why would that be remarkable?

    As an older gentlemen, What point are you making? I am no spring chicken myself.

  46. Sarah AB — on 10th April, 2011 at 4:40 pm  

    Chris – I did respect his straightforwardness, and I don’t actually think his support was driven by crude racism, more likely by economic/cultural anxieties. I didn’t say he’d made a mistake – I meant I had, in assuming his politics were within more mainstream parameters. Actually, I made my point in (oblique) support of Damon, if anything.

  47. damon — on 10th April, 2011 at 4:51 pm  

    This forum can be like a boring game of Chinese whispers dragged out over a couple of days.
    The sad thing is that I’m on here rather than doing something enjoyable or purposeful.

    Sarah AB, I wouldn’t take too much notice of what was said @37.

  48. douglas clark — on 10th April, 2011 at 5:04 pm  

    Damon,

    It is only you that makes this place boring. You haven’t a clue about anything and you drag idiotic people like Chris in on your coat-tails.

    Ta, very much.

    You love Chris @ 37, don’t you?

    Well, at least no-one will have to pretend anymore that you are anything other than a BNP wannabe.

  49. Chris — on 10th April, 2011 at 5:05 pm  

    @ douglas clark

    OK douglas, confirmed now. You are a fruitcake to ignore.

    Thanks. And bye.

    @ Don

    “Just what I said”

    You didn’t actually say anything about it Don, that is why I asked.

    “That a member of someone’s social circle was looked at in a different light. Why would that be remarkable?”

    Not that someone was questioned as to their politics and that in their honesty had a made a big mistake?

    That’s how it comes over it, because that is what it says. However, of course I accept what Sarah has to say about it.

    “As an older gentlemen, What point are you making? I am no spring chicken myself.”

    I made my point comprehensively. Read it again.

    @ Sarah AB

    “I didn’t say he’d made a mistake – I meant I had, in assuming his politics were within more mainstream parameters.”

    Fair enough then; but from the semantics employed, you can perhaps see where I was coming from?

    “I did respect his straightforwardness, and I don’t actually think his support was driven by crude racism, more likely by economic/cultural anxieties”

    Again fair enough.

    OK, anyway, the actual comment I meant to make here was in relation to the post itself not your comments Sarah, but it just got my libertarian radar all fizzled.

    So my point was, hilarious video aside, the guy subjected to this very public mocking has been clearly seriously failed by the state in so many ways, education being just one of them.

    Nonetheless, are we to say that because he had been failed in even basic education and is unable to articulate himself in even a rudimentary fashion, let alone eloquently, that he has no views at all? That he has no legitimacy at all?

    That he is not worthy of holding any opinion and that what would clearly seem to be a deeply held belief is superfluous merely because this guy has problems in elucidation?

    Should we not attempt to right the wrongs of the failings that have led to this, and condemn those who allow our schools to discharge this woeful example as a product?

    I think mocking him in this fashion is extremely smug, cruel and will only lead to more resentment.

  50. douglas clark — on 10th April, 2011 at 5:19 pm  

    Chris,

    OK douglas, confirmed now. You are a fruitcake to ignore.

    Thanks. And bye.

    Really?

    The only idiots around here are you and your new best friend damon.

    Are you BNP or suchlike?

    I think we should be told.

  51. Ravi Naik — on 10th April, 2011 at 5:30 pm  

    Nonetheless, are we to say that because he had been failed in even basic education and is unable to articulate himself in even a rudimentary fashion, let alone eloquently, that he has no views at all? That he has no legitimacy at all?

    I think mocking him in this fashion is extremely smug, cruel and will only lead to more resentment.

    The issue is not his eloquence or class, but rather his belief system, which reflects a dystopic view of society. I guess we can treat him as an average human being and mock him for his views, or someone with mental retardation and not do that, because it would be indeed cruel. Except that he parrots what the EDL says, so that says a lot.

    I guess we have the right to empathise with people. Damon for instance, disagrees with EDL but it is clear he empathises and understands where this guy is coming from. To me the cruel part is what the EDL does – which is to terrorise and demonise people for their religious beliefs. I empathise with the latter.

  52. damon — on 10th April, 2011 at 5:31 pm  

    Ha Dougie. You remind me of Manuel from Fawlty Towers.
    Would you even understand an article like this one about Nick Griffin appearing on Question Time?
    http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/7611/

    Not necessarily agree with it, just understand the point it was making?
    That’s a simple question I’m asking you Douglas.
    You either do or you don’t. A lot of people don’t get views like that at all, and think that if you don’t support ”Unite Against Fascism” for example …. you must therefore be ”a fascist”.

    There is a dumb, carrot crunching kind of logic in that. The kind of logic that was shown by villagers in Monty Python and the Holy Grail when they found a witch. :)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sglyFwTjfDU

  53. Chris — on 10th April, 2011 at 5:41 pm  

    @ Ravi

    I agree with you to a certain degree, but let’s be clear, this guy was not parroting the official EDL line by any means. He was embarrassing himself with a completely fuddled and addled rendition.

    I am not sure where he hails from, but clearly the north, and I do know that there is disaffection in many northern towns between the white working class and the new muslim population, so to say that he has no point whatsoever is patently false.

    What has gone wrong here, I think, is that because he is utterly unable to articulate his concerns he has to blend with a group that he thinks can, and because of his lack of even basic education he is unable to grasp, let alone question, the validity of the world view he aspires to follow as an answer to his concerns.

  54. Boyo — on 11th April, 2011 at 5:29 am  

    Let’s face it, lots of extremist Muslims say equally crazy things – many of which are far more offensive to women, gays, Jews, and the rest of us “kuffar” – and who number more than the EDL could muster in their wildest dreams, but I have yet to see a clever piss take on You Tube accompanied by Liberal haw-haws.

    Why?

  55. Sarah AB — on 11th April, 2011 at 7:03 am  

    Thanks Chris.

    Boyo – fair point – but there was 4 Lions?

  56. Ravi Naik — on 11th April, 2011 at 10:17 am  

    What has gone wrong here, I think, is that because he is utterly unable to articulate his concerns he has to blend with a group that he thinks can, and because of his lack of even basic education he is unable to grasp, let alone question, the validity of the world view he aspires to follow as an answer to his concerns.

    Fair point.

    Let’s face it, lots of extremist Muslims say equally crazy things – many of which are far more offensive to women, gays, Jews, and the rest of us “kuffar” – and who number more than the EDL could muster in their wildest dreams, but I have yet to see a clever piss take on You Tube accompanied by Liberal haw-haws. Why?

    I wonder if you, Damon or Chris are willing to understand why young Muslims get into extremist groups with the same passion as you defend this EDL guy. I guess it is not very different.

  57. damon — on 11th April, 2011 at 11:03 am  

    Ravi – I wasn’t defending the guy. I have no problem if someone kicks his head in. That’s his lookout.

    And of course I can understand why people get involved in all sorts of groups, including islamic extremists.

    The reason I moved to Northern Ireland was to try to get to understand what had gone on here and still goes on in a much lesser way. Why people felt so strongly on either side. For example, I took a trip to Portadown on friday and walked the route of the hugely contentious Drumcree orange parade. From the town up to the church just outside, and back again. This July I will go there for the actual parade itself.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drumcree_conflict

    And I think the Orange Order is/has been bigoted and reactionary in the extreme. But as some of my neighbours are no doubt members of it, it’s worth at least trying to understand them.

    I would put trying to understand the EDL on a par with trying to understand the Orange Order or violent Irish Republicans.
    You can condemn them all and call them fascists if you like, but there is a bit more to them than that too.
    And that’s all I tried to do with the EDL.

  58. Boyo — on 11th April, 2011 at 8:28 pm  

    “I wonder if you, Damon or Chris are willing to understand why young Muslims get into extremist groups with the same passion as you defend this EDL guy.”

    Er… sorry, can you point me to where I was defending “this EDL guy”?

    It’s odd that you twist my observation about the double-standards of a section of the left into a defence of a pseudo-fascist organisation.

  59. douglas clark — on 12th April, 2011 at 6:35 am  

    damon @ 57,

    I would put trying to understand the EDL on a par with trying to understand the Orange Order or violent Irish Republicans.
    You can condemn them all and call them fascists if you like, but there is a bit more to them than that too.
    And that’s all I tried to do with the EDL.

    No. You are a complete utter numpty. You are happy to compare evil with evil. There is nothing redemptive about any of the shits you favour.

    Grow up.

  60. damon — on 12th April, 2011 at 9:14 am  

    Douglas, I know you can’t help it. If this forum is therapy for you, then that’s fine. I don’t mind.

  61. Kismet Hardy — on 12th April, 2011 at 2:07 pm  

    mutter mutter it’s muslamic re-gimes mutter mutter

  62. jamal — on 12th April, 2011 at 3:37 pm  

    calling black people the N word is racist calling asians the P word is racist.

    edl are just replacement for bnp because muslims are easy target and calling them names is not illegal at the moment!

    this is what edl represent:

    http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/8933786.GANTS_HILL__Racist_attack_on_mosque/

  63. douglas clark — on 12th April, 2011 at 4:05 pm  

    cheers damon @ 60,

    You prove my point.

    If this is therapy for you, in the sense that you need therapy, then obviously whatever you need is good.

    The treatment you get here is probably best in attempting to save your soul.

    I am doing my best with no obvious result. You are as incorrigible as ever. Perhaps other folk can work on your stupidity.

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