Sikh counter-EDL protests


by Rumbold
7th February, 2011 at 8:17 am    

At the recent EDL march (ably covered by Rowenna Davis and Matthew Taylor), a Sikh anti-EDL contingent was out in force, building on the recent joint statement from a number of Hindu and Sikh organisations condemning the EDL’s anti-Muslim bigotry. Rowenna Davis and Matthew Taylor, reporting at the march, noted that:

The EDL and police had predicted a turnout of between 5,000 and 7,000, but as the marchers arrived in St George’s Square in the town centre just after 1pm, it appeared that no more than 3,000 had turned out. Despite the smaller numbers there were minor scuffles at the train station as anti-racist protesters tried to prevent EDL supporters getting off trains.

More than 2,000 police officers from forces across the south of England escorted the EDL march from the station into the centre of Luton. Some fireworks and bottles were thrown, shops and businesses in the town were closed and petrol stations had been boarded up in what one resident compared to a “war zone”.

The Sikh contingent was part of a large group organised by UAF:

The farcical Islam4UK, led by Anjem Choudary promised a radical counter protest, but failed to turn up after the group’s robin reliant broke down on the way.

(Via Varinder Singh)


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  1. Shamit — on 7th February, 2011 at 11:11 am  

    While I welcome this very much – I am also very supportive of the Prime Minister’s speech at Munich.

    I disagree with Sunny on this strongly – because I do believe that there are far too many organisations within the UK who challenge our basic values of democracy, rule of law and equality between sexes.

    One of the reasons why organisations such as the EDL has flourished is due to the lack of any dialogue on these key issues in the political sphere.

    Pushing it under the carpet and claiming Islamophobia has stifled actual debate – I still don’t understand why is it politically acceptable for some idiotic Muslims to call others “Kuffir” and if challenged then the “freedom of expression” line is belted out by so many.

    However, when one questions Mohammed’s judgement about having sexual intercourse with a child – then one is accused of hurting religious sentiments. Every day, including yesterday, other religions are condemned to paganism on BBC1 however, then no one worries about hurting Hindus, Jain’s or Buddhist setiments. Because there would not be violent repurcussions.

    But the fear of violent repurcussions have made us bite our tongue and given free rein to too many “preachers of hate” in our mosques.

    Sadiq Khan, with his idiotic reponse to the Prime Minister’s speech shows how many in the political class hate having this debate – in fact a much junior MP Chuka Umunna probably provided the best response when he said the speech was well balanced and he pointed out the differenc between “integration” and “assimilation”. That is a nunanced approach.

    In his speech, the Prime Minister categorically pointed out that those who preach extremism are not being Islamic – they are arguing for a far different ideology which radicalises some of our youth who then embrace violence.

    And as usual the response from the so called left has been idiotic at worse and blind at best. We do face a huge problem of home grown terrorism – and senior members (ie who have actually served in governmet) from both parties actually admit it.

    The Prime Minister deserves credit for bringing this up and not be showered with idiotic responses from the so called liberal left who would be the first to accuse the governmnet of failing to tackle extremism, if something (God forbid) happens in the UK.

  2. douglas clark — on 7th February, 2011 at 11:35 am  

    Shamit,

    And as usual the response from the so called left has been idiotic at worse and blind at best. We do face a huge problem of home grown terrorism – and senior members (ie who have actually served in governmet) from both parties actually admit it.

    But where is the evidence? Let us see that shamit, let you and me browse over the facts and discuss it in a free and informed manner.

    Until our security state releases that to us – the folk that they claim to protect – well, I don’t know. And neither do you.

    My base line assumption is that jobs depend on these sort of lies.

    But I could be wrong. Where is your evidence, shamit?

  3. Shamit — on 7th February, 2011 at 11:48 am  

    Save for one, all the people who took part in 7/7 were home grown terrorists and those that tried the re-run on 21/7 were also home grown.

    The shoe bomber was home grown as well and there are many other examples including the fact that some of the people killed in drone attacks in terrorist camps in pakistan have been home grown.

    Aside from the fact that over since 9/11 more than 200 individuals have been convicted in the U.K. on terrorism and terror-related charges. And the majority are home grown.

    And anyone who denies that people like the hook have not radicalised some sections of our youth is being blind.

    What further evidence do you want Douglas? I guess once there is a Mumbai style attack on Oxford Street, Reading, Cardiff and Glasgow on the same day – only those who accuse the Prime Minister of pandering to the far right would buy the fact there is home grown terrorism.

    What evidence do you need Mr. Clark? Questioning the government’s motives is healthy and our responsibility but taking it to the point of being fanatic undermines our own system of governance.

    The Prime Minister raised some serious but not palatable truths – and I stand by my comments and I find Sadiq Khan’s comments ludicrous while I applaud Umunna’s comments.

    Shows that Brown’s Children really haven’t learnt much except to backstab and fight with each other – and I almost fell of the chair when Douglas Alexander suddenly remembered Tony Blair. Wow.

  4. MaidMarian — on 7th February, 2011 at 12:02 pm  

    Shamit – I think you have got this right, but with one pretty big but….

    I don’t like these arguments about, ‘radicalisation.’ This is to imply that muslims have some switch in their heads that, when flicked, makes them want to strap bombs to themselves and head for a train. This is no better than the EDL’s view. To talk of radicalisation is to talk of symptom not cause.

    But worse, to talk of people who are radicalised is not far away from saying that their actions are legitimate or understandable. They are not. The point about multiculturalism is that it has gone beyond what it was meant to be. Discourse is no longer about providing substantive help to those facing material disadvantage due to a priori moral condemnation – what my grandad fought for in the unions. Now it is seen (rightly or wrongly) as being about preferencing identity groups, even to the extent of demanding that radicalisation somehow be rationalised.

    That’s wrong.

  5. Shamit — on 7th February, 2011 at 12:12 pm  

    Stifling the debate and pushing things under the carpet has led us to this:

    http://www.egovmonitor.com/node/40613

    where we have started distructing immigrants in general and far more than our mainland European counterparts – questioning our leaders about opening up floodgates make us bigots and anyone who does not see a corelation between the stifling of the debate in the political landscape and the rise of thugs such as the EDL is being blind.

    **********************************

    I hate the bloody EDL and I am completely opposed to any Hindus and Sikhs supporting these bunch of thugs but many do, unfortunately, although behind close doors. That should be challenged and publicly – but we must have a public debate and not try to paint everyone as an Islamophobe or racist.
    **********************************

    The terrorism problem affects us all and hurts our national cohesiveness and we must tackle it publicly and condemn any behaviour or speech that encourages extremism in our society. Blair challenged it and so does Cameron. He deserves respect and not brick bats

  6. MaidMarian — on 7th February, 2011 at 12:24 pm  

    Shamit – Some of what Cameron said was certainly not wrong. Certainly this line of argument about ‘state sponsored multiculturalism,’ has some resonance. My problem was more that he did conflate some issues rather unwisely – worse, the way he conflated things did rather detract from his better points.

    But I will here jump on one of my hobby horses. In the last ten years, there has been an influx of mainly white East Europeans. Some of them from countries that have had poor relations with Britain. Yet the institutions and media of multiculturalism have had almost nothing to say about the East Europeans who have by and large got on with the business of living in the UK. Cameron can’t say this, I suspect because it would carry with it an inference about Europe that is intolerable to the Conservative right. But is it a disappointment that others have not said anything.

  7. douglas clark — on 7th February, 2011 at 12:24 pm  

    shamit,

    Well said.

    And anyone who denies that people like the hook have not radicalised some sections of our youth is being blind.

    Agreed.

    What further evidence do you want Douglas? I guess once there is a Mumbai style attack on Oxford Street, Reading, Cardiff and Glasgow on the same day – only those who accuse the Prime Minister of pandering to the far right would buy the fact there is home grown terrorism.

    Obviously.

    Questioning the government’s motives is healthy and our responsibility but taking it to the point of being fanatic undermines our own system of governance.

    That is what I do. I am not convinced that we are as threatened as you say we are. It is a self fullfilling idea that you buy into. It seems to me that the ‘threat level’ is through the stratosphere and there are folk that like it that way. Perhaps you like the idea that we should be perpetually threatened?

    Perhaps we are, but that is no new thing. What is new is the frankly disgusting idea of a ‘muslim offence meter”. It is disgusting because some muslims would probably subscribe to it.

    Well, stuff them too.

    I frankly don’t live in a world where muslims are a problem. The one’s I meet and know OK guys and gals.

    I’m saying that most muslims are harmless, unless stung. I am saying that that is pretty well typical of all mad and daft religious freaks.

    muslims are however, especially daft when it comes to cartoons.

    Seems to me.

  8. Nadeem — on 7th February, 2011 at 12:39 pm  

    this is tokenism, just like it always is with these “lovely” posts that appear on PP with increasing frequency.

  9. KJB — on 7th February, 2011 at 1:21 pm  

    Now this actually counts for something… good! Glad to see young Sikhs living up to the principles of the religion.

  10. Shamit — on 7th February, 2011 at 2:05 pm  

    I don’t find this post “tokenism” just like I thought Jai’s post a couple of days ago was very apt.

    We must debate these issues but we must acknowledge when good work is being done. There were some who urged that while acknowledging this good work we must not be hiding other prejudices under the carpet.

    That’s not entirely wrong although a couple of lines praising the interfaith effort would have been more appropriate.

    We must all take pride in what these guys did by marching against the EDL thugs and the interfaith letter – and those who question the supposed hypocricy may be they have overlooked this.

    Isn’t it a sign of progress that even though those who might be very parochial in their views are openly condemning the EDL thugs – that by in itself is an admission of what is acceptable and what is not.

    Their conscience or political acumen is telling them is its important to change with times – because times have changed.

    But we Asians while very welcoming about societal changes are often a bit too much parochial when those changes happen close to home. In the process we end up hurting people who we want o hurt the least.

    To eradicate that completely would take some time – after all some them still bear real scars from division of the Indian sub continent.

    We must challenge those parochial views publicly and privately but we must also acknowledge that the interfaith letter as a gesture shows how far we have come.

    So I could not figure out what the fuss was all about.

  11. douglas clark — on 7th February, 2011 at 2:21 pm  

    Nadeem @ 8,

    this is tokenism, just like it always is with these “lovely” posts that appear on PP with increasing frequency.

    Are you looking at me?

    I can assure you I am not ‘lovely’.

    Just saying…

  12. Rumbold — on 7th February, 2011 at 2:25 pm  

    Nadeem:

    I don’t understand why this is tokenism- it highlights a group of individuals stadnign up to a racist organsiation.

    Thanks KJB.

    Shamit:

    Their conscience or political acumen is telling them is its important to change with times – because times have changed.

    Exactly; and these efforts should be praised. And, as you say, at the same time challenging these “parochial views” publically.

    Heh Douglas (#11)

  13. douglas clark — on 7th February, 2011 at 2:38 pm  

    I refer you to my discussion with my friend shamit @ 1, 2, 3, 5 , 7, 10 & 11.

    Shamit is a very persuasive guy or gal.

    So.

    I have changed my mind. shamit is right, more or less.

    How often do you read that on here?

    It usually takes years :-)

  14. damon — on 7th February, 2011 at 2:46 pm  

    If people want to identify themseves as coming from a particular group on demonstrations like this, then fair enough. I wouldn’t do it myself, as ”Irish origin athiest person against the EDL” might look a bit daft and attention seeking. But if it makes people feel good and have fraternal feeling towards each other, then do it by all means.

    Anyone who falls for the EDL’s way of going about ‘politics’ is obviously a fool, and I doubt many Sikhs are anyway. That’s not to say they might not have an issue with the way that some community relations are.

    I read years ago that Hindus had been leaving Bradford because (said some people) of intimidation by muslim youths in the city. I clearly remember one Hindu or Sikh shopkeeper complaining that his shop was the only one in a parade that got continually vandalised in the evenings when the shops were closed, as the others were all Muslim owned.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1331176.stm

    These allegations of the reasons why non Muslim Asians were leaving Bradford weren’t proved I think, and could just be people moving out to the suburbs because they were doing better, as is normal everywhere.

    Obviously people of an EDL mindset, do not get on with these Muslim young men shown in this video of Bury Park Luton on saturday.
    https://theislamicstandard.wordpress.com/2011/02/05/edls-luton-demo-is-a-flop/

    I don’t know Luton very well. Is it more like a northern town like Oldham, where there are well documented segregation issues? If it is, then it’s something to be discussed – as the EDL could be more of a symptom than the sole problem.

    ”Tommy Robinson” said that white guys like him had to put up with a certain amount of intimidation in some places around Luton. I know from white guys I used to know years ago saying similar things about South London. Although there it was with black youth.

    It was a hegemony issue I thought. Swaggering white guys had to watch it around Croydon, Southwark and Lambeth as the demography changed over twenty years.

  15. douglas clark — on 7th February, 2011 at 3:45 pm  

    damon @ 14,

    I wouldn’t do it myself, as ”Irish origin athiest person against the EDL” might look a bit daft and attention seeking

    No, it wouldn’t.

    If that is who you are, you should shout it from the rooftops and stop getting up everyone’s tit’s because we all thought otherwise.

    Jesus, I am a Scottish Nationalist atheist who happens to find most folk around here friends, not enemies.

    I like most of the folk that take the time to share their ideas with me.

    I have enormous respect for most of the authors on here and most of the folk that comment here too. Jai, for instance, has opened my eyes about history I never knew about.

    And Rumbold is a chum and someone I enjoy discussing stuff with, partly because we disagree and get on with each other anyway.

    Sunny is someone I respect and would vote for, despite the fact that he is in the wrong political party.

    KJB keeps me sane.

    I respect the likes of Kismet Hardy because he is funny.

    Just saying.

    The folk that write or comment here are not your enemies. They are, potentially, your friends.

    I have survived a lot of shit being thrown at me. I still love this place and always will. Partly because when I have been attacked, folk I wouldn’t have assumed to be my friends, turn out to be.

    Just saying.

  16. Nadeem — on 7th February, 2011 at 3:54 pm  

    Rumbold
    “It highlights a group of individuals stadnign up to a racist organsiation.”

    Your definition here of the above event does not preclude tokenism.

    Douglas Clark
    I was thinking more along the lines of the “Copts and Muslims are best fwends and love each other vewy vewy much” articles recently. Made me want to vomit blood.

  17. douglas clark — on 7th February, 2011 at 4:10 pm  

    Nadeem @ 16,

    Made me want to vomit blood.

    Well, let it all hang out. Tell us what you really think.

  18. Don — on 7th February, 2011 at 4:22 pm  

    Made me want to vomit blood.

    Don’t let us stop you.

    What I got from those stories was that some people, a significant number, were able to move beyond the narrative that difference must always lead to implacable hatred.

    Why would it bug you that people want to point out a good deed in a weary world? We’re not stupid, we know that for every such moment of common humanity there are a thousand of vile inhumanity. If we condemn the thousand, should we not also value the one?

    Surely all advances in our dealings with people who are superficially different have begun with a few people starting to see things differently, starting to reject the doctrine of hate? We can welcome these fragile beginings, or we can sneer at them.

    Whatever works for you.

  19. Rumbold — on 7th February, 2011 at 5:02 pm  

    Nadeem:

    I was thinking more along the lines of the “Copts and Muslims are best fwends and love each other vewy vewy much” articles recently. Made me want to vomit blood.

    I can’t see how highlighting brave individuals risking their lives for their co-religionists, when the narrative is overwhelmingly one of religious conflict, is ‘sickly’.

  20. Nadeem — on 7th February, 2011 at 5:31 pm  

    Don

    Who is this “We/us” that you speak for?

    Your enthusiasm for this new beginning where human beings reject hatred is touching, it really is. I’m a bit cynical about this new beginning… perhaps you know more than I do about it.

    Your 1/1000 analogy is apt – the “doctrine of hatred” is so pervasive that any departures from it smack of tokenism (to some). So I will continue to sneer, as that is all tokenism deserves.

  21. Don — on 7th February, 2011 at 5:32 pm  

    Non-co-religionists, Rumbold.

  22. Rumbold — on 7th February, 2011 at 5:36 pm  

    Oops. Thanks Don

    Nadeem:

    Your enthusiasm for this new beginning where human beings reject hatred is touching, it really is. I’m a bit cynical about this new beginning… perhaps you know more than I do about it.

    I don’t think everyone rejects hatred. That is why it is important to highlight cases such as the ones in Egypt. I am more than happy to discuss wider trends of violence/hatred, but I can’t see how highlighting such cases is ‘tokenism’, unless I claimed that all Xians and Muslims thought and acted like this, which I didn’t.

  23. Don — on 7th February, 2011 at 5:52 pm  

    ‘We# refers to the general concensus on this blog that these are positive events. Nothing further reaching than that.

    Your enthusiasm for this new beginning

    It’s not that new. I accept that we still live in a world where the worst very often set the agenda but we have made some advances and not just recently. For example, most of us nowadays would see genocide as a crime against humanity and a really bad thing. Back in the day it was business as usual.

    … where human beings reject hatred is touching, it really is. Why, thank you.

    I’m a bit cynical … Well done you. You have got the hang of cynicism. Do you see that as a starting point or an end point in your engagement with events?

    perhaps you know more than I do about it.

    Nope.

    Your 1/1000 analogy is apt Thanks again.


    the “doctrine of hatred” is so pervasive that any departures from it smack of tokenism (to some).

    Sorry, you’ve lost me. Why is deviation from a pervasive norm tokenism? Why is a rejection of the ‘doctrine of hate’ at risk of life tokenism? Could you join the dots for me on that? It seems to me the tokenists you are sneering at are very often getting their heads stove in for their pains while you preen yourself on your cynicism.

    So, as I said, whatever works for you. Sneer away.

  24. Refresh — on 7th February, 2011 at 6:30 pm  

    ‘Their conscience or political acumen is telling them is its important to change with times – because times have changed.’

    ‘Exactly; and these efforts should be praised. And, as you say, at the same time challenging these “parochial views” publically.’

    I believe you are all missing the point of this public show of rejection of the EDL doctrine. The point is it is NOT new and it is a reminder to everyone that its the same enemies as it was the last time, with some neo-con opportunists. Its the NF,BNP,C18 and Robert Spencer, Daniel Pipes, Gert Wilder, Douglas Murray rolled into one.

    From the links in the OP:

    ‘ People are waking up to the dangers of the racist poison that is being spread by the EDL and they will no longer fall for their ‘divide & rule’ tactics.”

    He further added:”In the ‘70s and ‘80s, whether we were Sikhs, Hindus or Muslim, we were all united against the racists and fascists of the National Front and the BNP. We now have to show the same unity again if we are going to halt this tide of racist hatred by the EDL.” ‘

  25. Refresh — on 7th February, 2011 at 6:31 pm  

    ‘Made me want to vomit blood.’

    I’d get that looked at.

  26. Nadeem — on 7th February, 2011 at 6:34 pm  

    Guys,
    My comment was in the interests of clarity – but has wound a lot of people up and has taken us off-topic.

    We’ll probably discuss this again, the next time I see an article that feeds into my cynicism and Don’s/ Rumbold’s vision of a new common humanity.

    Maybe you guys are right, but I’ll remain a cynic for the moment.

  27. joe90 — on 7th February, 2011 at 7:24 pm  

    Lady Eliza Manningham-Buller former head of Mi5 told Chilcot enquiry that iraq invasion increased terrorist threat and radicalised young British Muslims

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jul/20/chilcot-mi5-boss-iraq-war

    when the Neo cons keep peddling the lie muslims are all terrorists and no other community is violent i would just point them to this:

    http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not-all-terrorists-are-muslims/

    Anyone who thinks muslims community is not scrutinized is peddling a blatant lie. If certain politicians are not having a go then Pick up one of the daily rags or switch on the tv news to see another piece of hype or scare story about muslims. If it’s true story or not, is irrelevant as long as the propaganda achieves its objective of demonizing a community.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1322435/Cafe-owner-ordered-remove-extractor-fan-case-smell-frying-bacon-offends-passing-Muslims.html

    Cameron is an expert on racist propaganda, reading today’s independent it reminds us he was the project manager for a disgraceful anti immigration campaign in michael howards conservative party back in 2005.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/frontpage/4458925.stm

    In a week where we have former UK prime ministers hiding from the fact, they have been supporting brutal dictators of the middle east for decades. Regimes who would pull peoples finger nails out for fun, or make people disappear. We have cameron now becoming the spokesman for the edl, and dictating to muslims on how to live their lives!

  28. damon — on 7th February, 2011 at 9:24 pm  

    This was an interesting PP thread about Sikhs and Muslims in Britain after 7/7.
    http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/16

    The linked Guardian article does show how convoluted community relations can get. It’s no wonder that thick people from the EDL can’t get their heads around it.

    There obviously is a lot of identity politics around today.
    The VHP sound like a right wing Hindu party, so this list of allegations of attacks on their community in Bradford may be lies or exaggerated, but I found it quite startling all the same. I’m sure they are incidents that could be verified (or not) and put in some perspective.
    http://www.hvk.org/articles/1002/122.html

    It may be exaggerated, and some of it may be true.
    I found this clear anaysis from an online Muslim youth magazine to sound quite plausable – and a bit sad too, as it can show how things can go in a bad direction in some areas, just as at the same time they get better in others.
    http://www.therevival.co.uk/static/news/raceriots.php

    By the 1990s, a new generation of young Asians was coming of age in the northern towns, born and bred in Britain, and unwilling to accept the second-class status foisted on their elders. When racists came to their streets looking for a fight, they would meet violence with violence. And with the continuing failure of the police to tackle racist gangs, violent confrontations between groups of whites and Asians became more common.

    And Douglas – what are you on about? I just made some points on a talkboard @14. It’s what it’s for isn’t it?

    My opinion is that the EDL aren’t a big threat if people don’t rise to their bate and react to them.
    They can cause trouble for a day, and stir things up, but I don’t think they need to be faced by these demonstrations that actually try to confront them as they arrive at the railway station for one of their rallies. It only gets them excited .. and they’ll probably pick on some poor unfortunate on their way home when there are no police around.

  29. Wibble — on 8th February, 2011 at 10:35 am  

    All these Sikhs needed to do was to say that”my enemy’s enemy is not my friend”. So credit must be given for the stand they took.

    Regarding Cameron:

    1. As joe90 pointed out, he was manager of Howard’s election campaign so he has form.

    2. He’s probably closely aligned with folks like Michael Gove.

    3. He’s got to sound “tough” in light of the immigration survey that Shamit referred to.

    “The VHP sound like a right wing Hindu party” – absolutely!

  30. Kismet Hardy — on 9th February, 2011 at 10:45 am  

    “I guess once there is a Mumbai style attack on Oxford Street, Reading, Cardiff and Glasgow on the same day…”

    I hate it when people spout this shit.

    I guess once I publish a bestseller, release a number one album, win a nobel prize and have ten supermodels lining up to suck my knob on the same day you’ll all take me seriously

    Spunk covered bollocks

  31. damon — on 9th February, 2011 at 3:33 pm  

    I hate it when people spout this shit.

    Agreed.

    Btw, for anyone who missed it on Saturday (and I only just saw it) this was an interesting article on the EDL by Suzanne Moore in the Guardian.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/05/suzanne-moore-english-defence-league

    Also, Sunny was there at Luton amongst the EDL people, but never really said much about it on Liberal Conspiracy. Which is a pity I thought. It was a great opportunity to give an assessment of them in more detail.

  32. nobodys hero — on 9th February, 2011 at 6:35 pm  

    its all safe in our middle class affluent world. I dont see a white baby explosion which will be demanding a christian biblical world order and imposing a non beleiver tax on us pagans But i do with islam.The sikh drummers can make as much noise they like but they can drown the cries of the sikhs forced to convert in the swat valley 2011

  33. anon — on 9th February, 2011 at 11:32 pm  

    27. joe90 — on 7th February, 2011 at 7:24 pm
    “…when the Neo cons keep peddling the lie muslims are all terrorists and no other community is violent i would just point them to this…”

    I’ve never heard ‘the Neo cons’ keep peddling the lie that ‘muslims are all terrorists’. That in itself is a lie peddled by people like you.

    I do however keep hearing lefties and Islamicists continuously banging on about how it’s not the number of attacks that count it is the number of fatalaties that are all important. Perhaps Joe, you could go back to your link and tell me how many people have been killed/injured between 1980 and 2005 by ‘other’ terrorist groups and the total of killed/injured by Islamic terrorists.

    And it’s the same in the UK; the number of terrorist incidents commited by animal rights activists, eco warriors, anti-abortionists etc outnumber by far those perpetrated by the IRA and Islamic terrorsts however the ALF etc don’t aim to murder as many innocent civilians as they possibly can.

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