Now Christians protect Muslims in Egypt


by Rumbold
4th February, 2011 at 2:11 pm    

After the uplifting scenes in Egypt during Coptic Christmas, when Muslims formed human shields to protect their Christian brethren at mass after terror attacks on Copts, Christians have returned the favour during prayers, protecting Muslim protestors who were worried about attacks from pro-Mubarak thugs.

(Via: Maylor)


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Filed in: Middle East,Muslim,Religion






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  1. bronxbombermike

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  6. paxdemocratica

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  7. yorkierosie

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  8. yorkierosie

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  9. Tim Hardy

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  10. Tim Hardy

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  11. TeresaMary

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  12. TeresaMary

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  14. Hannah M

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  15. Sylv

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  16. Moenan Moenamania

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  17. Lisa Appignanesi

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  18. Lisa Appignanesi

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  19. Jack Palmer

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  20. Jack Palmer

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  21. Nemesis Republic

    RT @bc_tmh: Restore your faith in humanity–> RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : Now Christians protect Muslims in Egypt http://bit.ly/exJGZY #EDL


  22. Nemesis Republic

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  23. Sarb M

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  24. Emma Gray

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  25. Press Not Sorry

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  26. Spir.Sotiropoulou

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  27. Broken OfBritain

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  28. Sari B

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  1. platinum786 — on 4th February, 2011 at 7:38 pm  

    It happened last friday as well. I hope one day we can see the same unity in Pakistan.

  2. cronou81 — on 4th February, 2011 at 8:22 pm  

    @platinum786

    “It happened last friday as well. I hope one day we can see the same unity in Pakistan.”

    Given that 80-90% of Pakistan’s population has become religiously insane. I would not hold my breath.

  3. Don — on 4th February, 2011 at 10:13 pm  

    That was encouraging news. Any chance we can focus on that?

    cronou81.

    I’m calling troll on this one.

  4. damon — on 4th February, 2011 at 11:37 pm  

    Jai closed down his EDL/Sikh thread.
    This one seems like a poor replacement.

  5. Don — on 5th February, 2011 at 12:41 am  

    damon,

    There will be worthwhile comments. But I’m off to bed.

  6. Salman — on 5th February, 2011 at 2:05 am  

    Damon it’s a great story about tolerance vs. intolerance (EDL)

  7. damon — on 5th February, 2011 at 3:06 am  

    I hope Don is having sweet dreams as I write.

    This thing is a power struggle. And may be like Iraq.
    People who have power and wealth are not going to be turned over like patsies. If ten per cent of the population control the majority of the power and wealth, their influence runs deep in society.
    People who prosper by ill-gotten gains are always going to resent reform.

  8. Khalil M. Shams — on 5th February, 2011 at 5:14 am  

    I hope to see the same unity in Nigeria one day! God help us all.

  9. Paul — on 5th February, 2011 at 10:02 am  

    I note the Daily Mail coverage, which is fine in itself, has no reader comments.

  10. cronous81 — on 5th February, 2011 at 3:24 pm  

    @Don

    “I’m calling troll on this one.”

    Provocative? Maybe. True? Absolutely. Just goes to show the depths to which hyper-religiosity can take you.

    The thread also rolls over the fact that Copts face significant discrimination in Egypt and are often the target of attack by Islamic militants. Citing a few incidents of community cohesion does not change that. What Egypt needs is a Turkey like setup with an army that enforces secularism.

  11. Don — on 5th February, 2011 at 4:51 pm  

    Attempt to derail topic? Definitely.

  12. cronous81 — on 5th February, 2011 at 5:18 pm  

    “Attempt to derail topic? Definitely.”

    Comical considering I was merely responding to a previous poster.

  13. Sarah AB — on 5th February, 2011 at 5:52 pm  

    Cronous – did you see the bit in this (short) post which referred to ‘terror attack on Copts’?

  14. Otto — on 5th February, 2011 at 6:54 pm  

    How touching.

    And while this was going on, 11 Copts, including several young children, were murdered( Feb. 3rd) in Upper Egypt by rabid islamists.

    That kind of shit happens all the time to the various religious minorities in muslim-majority countries.

    That should be news, of course, but it isn’t.

  15. Don — on 5th February, 2011 at 7:36 pm  

    Of course there is intolerance, bigotry and oppression. If all were sweetness and light it would scarcely be worth noticing when christians and moslems decide to cover one another’s backs in the face of violence and oppression. It would be unremarkable that hundreds of thousands of Egyptians have chosen to place the desire for freedom and justice which unites them above the religions and dogmas which divide them.

    I don’t think we need to be told that religion has the power to turn ordinary people into monsters who will tear at their neighbours. We do need to be aware that there are very many who will place themselves in harm’s way to protect those neighbours.

    Of course if you have already decided that it is axiomatic that muslim = murder and hatred of the kuffar then anything which does not feed into that must be met with a sneer.

  16. Salman — on 6th February, 2011 at 3:25 am  

    Yes Otto Christians never kill Muslims

  17. Boyo — on 6th February, 2011 at 8:35 am  

    “What Egypt needs is a Turkey like setup with an army that enforces secularism.”

    This Pew survey is quite interesting – on the surface it appears to support the “dose of secularism” argument (if you are a democrat). But it’s notable that Lebanon (even where only Muslims are surveyed) is actually equal or more progressive than Turkey.

    I don’t know why – maybe it is that Lebanon’s history, along with its multi-confessional mix – promotes tolerance?

    http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1874/egypt-protests-democracy-islam-influence-politics-islamic-extremism

  18. jamal — on 6th February, 2011 at 11:13 am  

    cronou81

    how did you possibly conclude 80-90% of Pakistan’s population has become religiously insane do you have the medical records of 170 million people to back up your claim? didn’t think so.

    maybe you failed to notice the news in past 3 weeks the dictators and tyrants you wish for are on their way out!

  19. jamal — on 6th February, 2011 at 11:19 am  

    otto

    what happened with your racist edl marchers in luton pretty crap turn out in the end 1500 protestors??? when it was billed as the mother of all protests pathetic.

  20. Hermes — on 6th February, 2011 at 12:03 pm  

    Jamal

    This is the sort of Sharia law insanity that even you cant defend:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12344959

  21. jamal — on 6th February, 2011 at 2:10 pm  

    hermes

    what has that got to do with egypt?

    what i know of islamic law if a state implements it completely there is due process, a court case, witnesses,evidence and then a judgment.

    In the story you have linked we have the state of bangledesh whose judicial laws look similar to our own in england. Then you have cases like this where villages meet out their own horrific unaccountable justice.

    according to news reports

    “Village elders found both cousins guilty.”

    where was the due process,court case, evidence in this incident?

    that’s a bit like me saying liberal democracy being responsible for this
    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3378445/SEX-beast-who-attacked-brothers-in-a-McDonalds-is-jailed.html

    yes random but then again you started it.

  22. cronous81 — on 7th February, 2011 at 11:58 am  
  23. John — on 7th February, 2011 at 12:58 pm  

    Islamist action from largest Muslim country Indonesia;
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgY6N6Qe5EA

    Don’t assume this will not happen in Egypt.

  24. dfdd — on 9th February, 2011 at 6:59 am  

    @John:

    Shut the fuck up, where are you EDL rats coming from?

  25. Sarah AB — on 9th February, 2011 at 7:45 am  

    dfdd – don’t object much to that comment (yours I mean, not John’s unhelpful point) but you did seem to use ‘white’ as a term of abuse on the other thread yourself just now.

  26. Sarah AB — on 9th February, 2011 at 8:04 am  

    Sorry – just realized you said ‘white supremacist’ not just ‘white’ – though I still don’t agree with your analysis- though Douglas Murray’s certainly said some objectionable things in the past.

  27. Cauldron — on 9th February, 2011 at 8:36 am  

    @17. My guess is that at some level you’d find a correlation between political moderation and (a)high female literacy rates; (b) slightly older median population age and (c) higher levels of urbanisation. Turkey and Lebanon score well on the first two. Not sure how urbanised Turkey is though.

  28. Abu Faris — on 9th February, 2011 at 1:20 pm  

    I suspect that quote a few of the posters here preaching that Islamism is about to take over Egypt are the same as those posting much (if not in some cases identically the same posts) over on Harry’s Place at the moment.

    I have broken with HP precisely because of the encouragement above the line in some salient OPs of exactly this sort of batshit crazy, paranoid, and fundamentally unpleasant support for Mubarak and other dictators in the Arab world.

    Exactly what sort of credence we should give to a site that effectively promotes (by default, if not design) such vile and untrue views as the following: “democracy in Egypt would lead to the rule of the Muslim Brotherhood” (despite *all evidence to the contrary*)? Or, repeatedly from two posters, nuclear attacks would teach the Arabs the values of democratic and secular society (these were not flame-bait, incidentally – they meant it)? Arab culture is a “cesspool culture”?

    David T and Gene (amongst others) would certainly disassociate themselves from such revolting views; and quite rightly so. However, HP increasingly seems to be beholden above the line to such borderline mentalist cranks for copy. We have Davem, who writes above the line of some vast threat of the Egyptian Revolution being co-opted by Iran; and below the line writes insane comments to the effect that the Egyptian people should, on demonstrations, fly the flags of Western democracies to prove that they are democrats (with the added bonus that no-one would fire on someone holding up the US flag – thus, incidentally, suggesting that davem still has some way to go in his grasp of the political temperature in the region). That the Egyptian people by rising up against a dictator and for democracy may have already demonstrated some commitment to democratic values clearly (and rather conveniently) escapes our Dave.

    Then there is Karl Pfeifer, who writes cogent and enlightening enough stuff exposing the Hungarian government’s adherence to anti-Semitism. Karl is convinced that the economic problems of Egypt have nothing to do with the Mubarak regime’s kleptomaniac tendencies and everything to do with the Egyptians breeding like rats. Of course, given the fact (and it is a fact) that anti-Semitism is a major and crippling issue in the Arab world, Karl also believes that democracy in Egypt would inevitably lead to the rule of clerical fascism in the form of Islamism. Oddly, however, Karl does not seem to believe that because anti-Semitism is also a major problem in Hungarian political culture that therefore Hungary could never, ever be a democracy.

    I personally find this all very sad and disappointing. I have an enormous amount of time and respect for DavidT, Gene and many others (ATL and BTL) on Harry’s Place. However, I cannot be associated with a site that increasingly appears to be dominated by the sort of twitching knee-jerk Right, outright racists and plainly deranged cranks that are rightly despised by anyone truly committed to the values of free speech and democracy.

  29. AbuF — on 9th February, 2011 at 1:20 pm  

    I suspect that quote a few of the posters here preaching that Islamism is about to take over Egypt are the same as those posting much (if not in some cases identically the same posts) over on Harry’s Place at the moment.

    I have broken with HP precisely because of the encouragement above the line in some salient OPs of exactly this sort of batshit crazy, paranoid, and fundamentally unpleasant support for Mubarak and other dictators in the Arab world.

    Exactly what sort of credence we should give to a site that effectively promotes (by default, if not design) such vile and untrue views as the following: “democracy in Egypt would lead to the rule of the Muslim Brotherhood” (despite *all evidence to the contrary*)? Or, repeatedly from two posters, nuclear attacks would teach the Arabs the values of democratic and secular society (these were not flame-bait, incidentally – they meant it)? Arab culture is a “cesspool culture”?

    David T and Gene (amongst others) would certainly disassociate themselves from such revolting views; and quite rightly so. However, HP increasingly seems to be beholden above the line to such borderline mentalist cranks for copy. We have Davem, who writes above the line of some vast threat of the Egyptian Revolution being co-opted by Iran; and below the line writes insane comments to the effect that the Egyptian people should, on demonstrations, fly the flags of Western democracies to prove that they are democrats (with the added bonus that no-one would fire on someone holding up the US flag – thus, incidentally, suggesting that davem still has some way to go in his grasp of the political temperature in the region). That the Egyptian people by rising up against a dictator and for democracy may have already demonstrated some commitment to democratic values clearly (and rather conveniently) escapes our Dave.

    Then there is Karl Pfeifer, who writes cogent and enlightening enough stuff exposing the Hungarian government’s adherence to anti-Semitism. Karl is convinced that the economic problems of Egypt have nothing to do with the Mubarak regime’s kleptomaniac tendencies and everything to do with the Egyptians breeding like rats. Of course, given the fact (and it is a fact) that anti-Semitism is a major and crippling issue in the Arab world, Karl also believes that democracy in Egypt would inevitably lead to the rule of clerical fascism in the form of Islamism. Oddly, however, Karl does not seem to believe that because anti-Semitism is also a major problem in Hungarian political culture that therefore Hungary could never, ever be a democracy; because, of course, Hungary *is* a democracy. Further – and more tellingly – Karl does not assert that Hungary should *not be* a democracy because its political culture is significantly anti-Semitic; however he holds (at least implicitly) *exactly this view* of Egypt!

    I personally find this all very sad and disappointing. I have an enormous amount of time and respect for DavidT, Gene and many others (ATL and BTL) on Harry’s Place. However, I cannot be associated with a site that increasingly appears to be dominated by the sort of twitching knee-jerk Right, outright racists and plainly deranged cranks that are rightly despised by anyone truly committed to the values of free speech and democracy.

  30. Sarah AB — on 9th February, 2011 at 6:53 pm  

    Abu F – I’m sorry you have been so upset by HP and agree with much of the detail of your analysis (some I’m not sure about, perhaps because I missed some of the relevant threads) – and was surprised myself in some instances to read such objectionable stuff from commenters who are normally – I think – more measured.

    I hope you can be tempted back!

  31. KB Player — on 9th February, 2011 at 8:14 pm  

    AbuF – I was sorry to see some of the exchanges on HP about something which you are passionately engaged in.

    What struck me was that you were there on the ground with an actual physical stake in the outcome. I don’t know if you or your parents are Egyptian but if you/your friends/relations are involved in an uprising which is a matter of life and death (literally) the carping from people who are sitting safely on sofas must make you furious. I would be in your place.

  32. Graham — on 9th February, 2011 at 8:16 pm  

    ‘However, I cannot be associated with a site that increasingly appears to be dominated by the sort of twitching knee-jerk Right, outright racists and plainly deranged cranks that are rightly despised by anyone truly committed to the values of free speech and democracy.’

    Who are we talking about as ‘dominating’ HP Abu?

  33. AbuF — on 9th February, 2011 at 8:54 pm  

    Graham

    Who are we talking about as ‘dominating’ HP Abu?

    I think that is quite clear from my post. A seemingly ever increasing number of posts on HP these days (especially below the line; but increasingly above the line too) fall into one of the categories I mentioned in my previous post. That is a shame.

    I think the issue is how some may have lost sight of the meaning of Orwell’s famous quote that stands as HPs motto. Orwell was writing of uncomfortable (or even offensive to some) *truths* – he certainly did not mean to imply (imho) that the sort of abusive, plain nasty and sometimes frighteningly offensive comments made on HP by an increasingly strident and unpleasant cohort of commentors should be included in the scope of items that were to be counted in any definition of liberty.

    I am not alone (nor am I the first) to argue that these (most often below the line) abusive, disgraceful and truly reactionary comments are coming to represent the majority of comments being made on HP. More thoughtful, reflective and informed comments are becoming not only a minority; but are becoming so because their writers are frequently giving up posting because of the sort of cyber-bullying and violent abuse they are receiving at the keystrokes of those less inclined to argue a rational line and more intent on closing down debate in favour of intolerant, ignorant invective.

    I repeat: I find this a crying shame.

    Many thanks for your comments, Sarah AB and KB Player.

  34. Graham — on 9th February, 2011 at 10:10 pm  

    Ah but who is dominating above the line? (It may surprise you to hear that the below the line commenters are being argued about in much the same way as you outlines behind the scenes at HP right now) but if nobody is prepared to say who the ‘above the line’ people you think are ‘dominating’ are (some will be and it will change to whoever they disagree with) then what can be done about them? Nobody has ‘dominated’ me (chance would be a fine thing.)

  35. Graham — on 9th February, 2011 at 10:19 pm  

    Mind you if DaveM and Karl Pfieffer are ‘dominating’ I wouldn’t know as I have never conversed with either!

  36. AbuF — on 9th February, 2011 at 11:28 pm  

    Graham

    Thanks for your comments. I think you have misunderstood my own comments, however.

    Perhaps it was my use of the verb “dominate”. I simply mean the proliferation of extremely unpleasant, often factually weak (if not plain wrong)comments that have come to take the majority hold over the BLT writing at HP.

    I am concerned that this already quite widely acknowledged phenomenon is starting to emerge ATL as well. This concerns me.

    In all what concerns me is a Rightward tendency in a blog that once was widely regarded as the Left’s water-cooler.

    Again, I would council reflection on the meaning to be attached to the Orwell motto of HP: Liberty being the right to tell people what they do not what to hear is not a free pass for the sort of ill-informed bigotry, chauvinism and, worse, racism that more and more too often is passing for comment at HP – and I would contend is leaking into some of the ATL copy too.

  37. Graham — on 9th February, 2011 at 11:44 pm  

    Well in the five or so years I have known the blog commenters have always produced’unpleasant. factually weak, and often plain wrong’ comments. If you had siad that right-wing commenters are often using such comments to drown out any voice they don’t agree with then I think I would concur.

    But some of us argue and some of us give up and leave.

  38. AbuF — on 9th February, 2011 at 11:56 pm  

    Graham

    some of us argue and some of us give up and leave

    I concur.

    However, I might add that it is rather worthwhile inspecting *why* some people give up and leave. Doing so might begin to address some of the reasons why they feel the need to make such a move.

    It is not simply a matter of “arguing” against such people, Graham – they are either not disposed to reasoned argument of any order; or they are simply trolling; or they are acting out of some sort of animus or spite, against which no argument, however sustained, might prevail.

    What then? Ignore them? Well, they do *not* go away when this is done. Indeed, they flourish precisely because they are entirely immune to the norms of rational, reasoned debate.

    Simply because one might have a thicker skin, does not mean one may expect everyone to be so leathery. HP *does* have a problem retaining a *growing* body of bloggers and commenters who should be core constituents. That surely must be a worry not dispelled by simply asserting that some people are more immune to the barrage of abuse that passes for comment too often on HP.

  39. Graham — on 10th February, 2011 at 12:18 am  

    Well I think to inspect such reasons you would have to start by thinking that HP had either ‘a line’ or someone dominating what such a line should be. I have faith that when Gene (for instance) finds such a character as you describe he would ban them whilst any of us would do it on our own threads. Personally I find most commenters on blogs rather removed from my own life experiences (take education, which we have discussed, where 85% of people only think of universities and everything else is ignored) so I don’t expect to find agreements or ‘core constituents’ who agree with me – and I don’t think anyone else at HP seems over-worried at ‘retaining’anyone either (in fact I would think I am one of the few who sees any value in the comments at all – most, I’d say, seeing the post as the thing and believing precisely that ‘if you can’t stand the heat’ etc.

  40. AbuF — on 10th February, 2011 at 12:51 am  

    Again, I think you are in danger of misunderstanding my position, Graham – and of underestimating the paradox of a supposedly left-of-centre blog becoming laregly inhabited by extreme, obnoxious contributors and commenters.

    I made no reference to banning, or any of the other devices deployed to police blogs, Graham. These mechanisms do not concern me here, nor are they in any way pertinent to my argument, above.

    What concerns me is the loss of identity of a blog that appears to have lost its way (note, its orientation – not line).

    You assert that this is a matter of not being able to stand the heat – the implication being that any complaints may be reduced to a commentary on the character or personality of the complainant. That is, frankly, not a valuable way of proceeding. It simply rewrites your previous comment about people staying to argue or giving up and leaving. It does not address the issue at all.

  41. Graham — on 10th February, 2011 at 1:08 am  

    ‘What concerns me is the loss of identity of a blog that appears to have lost its way’

    It was always accused of losing its way – Once Harry left is was obviously no longer ‘run’ by one left-winger and was going to change to more diverse viewpoints. As for right-wingers above the line I can’t say I ever really agreed with Wardy or Ven. although I got along well enough with them – however, when they flounced off unhappy with the way the blog was going I don’t remember great fusses to persuade them to change their minds, and can’t see such hapenning for anyone else either!. However, I am here hoping to persuade you to do so.

    You do me a disservice in misunderstanding what I was saying about the heat. I was just letting you into a little secret that most HP posters – being individuals and not subject to any ‘line’ would post their thoughts on a matter and then think that the comments mattered not. As I spend time in the comments (and always have except for recent ill health) I obviously don’t think that and would like you to stay.

  42. anon — on 10th February, 2011 at 1:15 am  

    “left-of-centre blog becoming laregly inhabited by extreme, obnoxious contributors and commenters”

    PP to a T

  43. AbuF — on 10th February, 2011 at 1:36 am  

    I do apologise if you think that I do you a disservice, Graham; that certainly was not my intention.

    And you are right: I do not have the stomach for the sort of appalling comments that are becoming common fare on HP of late. However, I am certainly not flouncing off. Rather, I do not think it politic, nor pleasant to be associated with the sort of things I am reading too much of late on HP.

    So rather than a flounce, more of a sidling away to a different part of the pub – and away from the knuckle-dragging thugs that appear to be propping up the bar, flicking brainlessly through their Daily Hates and regaling all and sundry with their half-baked, malicious views on everything under the sun about which they hold strong prejudices in lieu of intelligent, informed opinion.

    Frankly, I think things could be better. How? – Well that is quite another matter.

  44. Sarah AB — on 10th February, 2011 at 7:04 am  

    Actually Abu F – I thought the comments a year or two ago, say, were in a worse state than they are now. But it’s difficult to be scientific about something so large and fragmented.

    I suppose HP attracts people from the right because it takes positions, not inherently right wing, but nevertheless in quite marked opposition to the positions taken by some (not all) on the left. I think the differences between HP postions and, say, tabloid anti-Muslim bigotry are really crucial and if the issues discussed attract bigots (though they often come to moan about the posts rather than praise them) then commenters with more welcome views are obviously particularly important.

    Personally, I’d be delighted to see more commenters from (to use those rather silly categories) the ‘non-decent’ (as opposed to the absolutely indecent!) left – I certainly feel I would have more in common with such commenters than some (obviously not all) of those who comment on HP.

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