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	<title>Comments on: Well I never&#8230;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151</link>
	<description>Current affairs for a progressive generation</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Saqib</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65923</link>
		<dc:creator>Saqib</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 17:11:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65923</guid>
		<description>Sonia,

I can see that these topics are popular here...hey i&#039;m all for banter and quick witted responses as opposed to...well... half witted psuedo-intellectuals.

I appreciate your point about coming from a Muslim  country...and yes i am British born and bred, so i am not as personally affected by the political happenings in other countries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sonia,</p>
<p>I can see that these topics are popular here&#8230;hey i&#8217;m all for banter and quick witted responses as opposed to&#8230;well&#8230; half witted psuedo-intellectuals.</p>
<p>I appreciate your point about coming from a Muslim  country&#8230;and yes i am British born and bred, so i am not as personally affected by the political happenings in other countries.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Saqib</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65901</link>
		<dc:creator>Saqib</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 16:17:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65901</guid>
		<description>William,

Thank you very much for wishing me luck...so many people on this forum have wished me well on them, and, finally it seems to have worked...did very well today, mind you only started revising last night about one question.

I wrote about an Italian gentleman by the name of Beccaria, who is credited with ushering in a new approach to the European penal system. I would love to read and study more of his work and the reforms he forwarded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>William,</p>
<p>Thank you very much for wishing me luck&#8230;so many people on this forum have wished me well on them, and, finally it seems to have worked&#8230;did very well today, mind you only started revising last night about one question.</p>
<p>I wrote about an Italian gentleman by the name of Beccaria, who is credited with ushering in a new approach to the European penal system. I would love to read and study more of his work and the reforms he forwarded.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: douglas clark</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65792</link>
		<dc:creator>douglas clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 22:22:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65792</guid>
		<description>William,

I think we are on to something. I seem to remember that the Kirk, in my case, considered women to be, how can I put this, something less than men. Adams rib, maybe.

The question that arises is, given that women do better than men educationally, why would they accept that? It is, I would argue, the Achilles heel of all organised religions. Maybe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>William,</p>
<p>I think we are on to something. I seem to remember that the Kirk, in my case, considered women to be, how can I put this, something less than men. Adams rib, maybe.</p>
<p>The question that arises is, given that women do better than men educationally, why would they accept that? It is, I would argue, the Achilles heel of all organised religions. Maybe.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65790</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 22:12:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65790</guid>
		<description>Last year at an Inter Faith meeting a prominent Muslim man from Leicester (forgot his name) told a
group of us that Islam has been constantly reforming
itself for hundreds of years. Not sure what he means
with my limited knowledge of Islam.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Last year at an Inter Faith meeting a prominent Muslim man from Leicester (forgot his name) told a<br />
group of us that Islam has been constantly reforming<br />
itself for hundreds of years. Not sure what he means<br />
with my limited knowledge of Islam.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: douglas clark</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65789</link>
		<dc:creator>douglas clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 22:09:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65789</guid>
		<description>Saqib,

Sleep tight, and best of luck in the exams. Look forward to continuing this somewhere. Though hopefully not in 2050. I&#039;d be 102!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Saqib,</p>
<p>Sleep tight, and best of luck in the exams. Look forward to continuing this somewhere. Though hopefully not in 2050. I&#8217;d be 102!</p>
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	</item>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65788</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 22:07:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65788</guid>
		<description>Saqib

Good luck with your exams. 

If they are anything like History exams I remember them as being like slow torture for about 4 weeks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Saqib</p>
<p>Good luck with your exams. </p>
<p>If they are anything like History exams I remember them as being like slow torture for about 4 weeks.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: douglas clark</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65787</link>
		<dc:creator>douglas clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 22:03:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65787</guid>
		<description>William,

Thanks. I agree with you. Your point reminds me of just how insidious the Catholic Church was in Ireland, what was the name of that movie?

It is only after the current consensus has been overturned that people realise that the sky has not fallen. There would have been folk back then that argued for continued incarceration in Bedlam. Damn strong pillars of the community they would have been too :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>William,</p>
<p>Thanks. I agree with you. Your point reminds me of just how insidious the Catholic Church was in Ireland, what was the name of that movie?</p>
<p>It is only after the current consensus has been overturned that people realise that the sky has not fallen. There would have been folk back then that argued for continued incarceration in Bedlam. Damn strong pillars of the community they would have been too <img src='http://www.pickledpolitics.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Saqib</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65786</link>
		<dc:creator>Saqib</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 21:59:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65786</guid>
		<description>zinzin I take back my words...I stand corrected and ready to eat humble pie...as long as it&#039;s halal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>zinzin I take back my words&#8230;I stand corrected and ready to eat humble pie&#8230;as long as it&#8217;s halal.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Saqib</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65785</link>
		<dc:creator>Saqib</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 21:55:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65785</guid>
		<description>thanks douglas 

Likewise you make good points in this post...interesting prediction of 2050...I&#039;m 28 now so I may just be able to witness for myself the picture...who knows we might even have Khilafah...well if I were a betting man I might have fancied a flutter, i&#039;m sure the odds would be extremely lengthy! 

I will fire away on this after the exams...for now I need some sleep</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanks douglas </p>
<p>Likewise you make good points in this post&#8230;interesting prediction of 2050&#8230;I&#8217;m 28 now so I may just be able to witness for myself the picture&#8230;who knows we might even have Khilafah&#8230;well if I were a betting man I might have fancied a flutter, i&#8217;m sure the odds would be extremely lengthy! </p>
<p>I will fire away on this after the exams&#8230;for now I need some sleep</p>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65784</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 21:52:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65784</guid>
		<description>Things change and they should

In the 1950&#039;s in this country a young woman could be contained in a mental institution for becoming pregnant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Things change and they should</p>
<p>In the 1950&#8242;s in this country a young woman could be contained in a mental institution for becoming pregnant.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: douglas clark</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65783</link>
		<dc:creator>douglas clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 21:52:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65783</guid>
		<description>Anas,

Are you lurking? ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anas,</p>
<p>Are you lurking? <img src='http://www.pickledpolitics.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: ZinZin</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65782</link>
		<dc:creator>ZinZin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 21:49:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65782</guid>
		<description>Saqib you don&#039;t know who Anas is do you? If you did you would not make such an idiotic comment.

Anas is an I/P obsessive and a believer in the islamophobia myth. He is also a good blogger and a great lad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Saqib you don&#8217;t know who Anas is do you? If you did you would not make such an idiotic comment.</p>
<p>Anas is an I/P obsessive and a believer in the islamophobia myth. He is also a good blogger and a great lad.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Saqib</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65781</link>
		<dc:creator>Saqib</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 21:43:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65781</guid>
		<description>&#039;Where is Anas? when you need him? This debate is shaping up perfectly for him.&#039;

wow...you actually need reinforcements.

I really feel quite flatterd!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;Where is Anas? when you need him? This debate is shaping up perfectly for him.&#8217;</p>
<p>wow&#8230;you actually need reinforcements.</p>
<p>I really feel quite flatterd!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: douglas clark</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65780</link>
		<dc:creator>douglas clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 21:43:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65780</guid>
		<description>Saqib,

Interesting post, as usual. Could I take a shot at it?

The problem with any absolute belief system is just that, it is absolute. It is also prescriptive in it&#039;s belief that what was good for the fathers is good for the sons, and so on ad infinitum. Daughters don&#039;t get a look in. By it&#039;s nature, it resists change. It is, in effect the drag factor on a society, much as the Catholic Church - the only church - was prior to the Reformation.

It has a particularily rosy view of the past. It takes no account of the undoubted squalor of these times. It gives to itself the political without a corresponding link to the practical. It holds assent to a political belief system, for that is what it is, above all else. It is apparent that people who cannot succeed in other spheres can succeed as censors, thought police, etc, etc. If this reminds you of anything - perhaps the Soviet regieme, with added God - then we would be on a 
course to mutual understanding.

It is a recipe for a static society, while the rest of the world moves forward. Did I mention that a static society is a dead society? No? Well I will now.

So, the question everyone should be entitled to ask is whether that is a system of government they approve of, are happy with, gives them liberty, equality and support. And for their children, and their childrens children. If you opt for religious dictatorship, now, then you are storing up resentment and wars later. Life does not go on in the vacuum that marginal political theorists occupy.

It is a dynamic thing. Things change. Folk get educated, fathers are dead chuffed when their daughters do well at uni, and can&#039;t hack it in a debate with said daughter when she asks the &#039;why&#039; question. People are entitled to change, to question. They are not sheep. A religiously structured society does everything in it&#039;s power to suppress that.

For instance, when I was young; long, long, ago, women had to give up work if they &#039;fell pregnant&#039;. UK, 1960s.

I would not assume that anything, much, can stand up to the maelstorm of change. Only those that adapt to it will succeed. The more ridiculous adherents will push the more sensible away. It was ever thus. Expect to see a whole lot of Muslim apostates by the 2050s. Perhaps the majority of the so-called Ummah.

My best shot. Fire away! After your bloody exams.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Saqib,</p>
<p>Interesting post, as usual. Could I take a shot at it?</p>
<p>The problem with any absolute belief system is just that, it is absolute. It is also prescriptive in it&#8217;s belief that what was good for the fathers is good for the sons, and so on ad infinitum. Daughters don&#8217;t get a look in. By it&#8217;s nature, it resists change. It is, in effect the drag factor on a society, much as the Catholic Church &#8211; the only church &#8211; was prior to the Reformation.</p>
<p>It has a particularily rosy view of the past. It takes no account of the undoubted squalor of these times. It gives to itself the political without a corresponding link to the practical. It holds assent to a political belief system, for that is what it is, above all else. It is apparent that people who cannot succeed in other spheres can succeed as censors, thought police, etc, etc. If this reminds you of anything &#8211; perhaps the Soviet regieme, with added God &#8211; then we would be on a<br />
course to mutual understanding.</p>
<p>It is a recipe for a static society, while the rest of the world moves forward. Did I mention that a static society is a dead society? No? Well I will now.</p>
<p>So, the question everyone should be entitled to ask is whether that is a system of government they approve of, are happy with, gives them liberty, equality and support. And for their children, and their childrens children. If you opt for religious dictatorship, now, then you are storing up resentment and wars later. Life does not go on in the vacuum that marginal political theorists occupy.</p>
<p>It is a dynamic thing. Things change. Folk get educated, fathers are dead chuffed when their daughters do well at uni, and can&#8217;t hack it in a debate with said daughter when she asks the &#8216;why&#8217; question. People are entitled to change, to question. They are not sheep. A religiously structured society does everything in it&#8217;s power to suppress that.</p>
<p>For instance, when I was young; long, long, ago, women had to give up work if they &#8216;fell pregnant&#8217;. UK, 1960s.</p>
<p>I would not assume that anything, much, can stand up to the maelstorm of change. Only those that adapt to it will succeed. The more ridiculous adherents will push the more sensible away. It was ever thus. Expect to see a whole lot of Muslim apostates by the 2050s. Perhaps the majority of the so-called Ummah.</p>
<p>My best shot. Fire away! After your bloody exams.</p>
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		<title>By: ZinZin</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65776</link>
		<dc:creator>ZinZin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 21:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65776</guid>
		<description>Where is Anas? when you need him? This debate is shaping up perfectly for him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where is Anas? when you need him? This debate is shaping up perfectly for him.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jagdeep</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65775</link>
		<dc:creator>Jagdeep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 21:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65775</guid>
		<description>What are you talking about sonia?? Muslims in Britain are oppressed, persecuted, repressed, persecuted, oppressed and.....ummmm.....persecuted and stuff.....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What are you talking about sonia?? Muslims in Britain are oppressed, persecuted, repressed, persecuted, oppressed and&#8230;..ummmm&#8230;..persecuted and stuff&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: sonia</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65774</link>
		<dc:creator>sonia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 21:15:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65774</guid>
		<description>its all right for you british muslims sitting here nice and tight - got your maroon passports, you can run back here, isn&#039;t it. not left to the mercy of the Mullahs at the end of the day - so yeah -theoretical debate - for you I understand. For a female from a Muslim country - well my friend, it&#039;s different.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>its all right for you british muslims sitting here nice and tight &#8211; got your maroon passports, you can run back here, isn&#8217;t it. not left to the mercy of the Mullahs at the end of the day &#8211; so yeah -theoretical debate &#8211; for you I understand. For a female from a Muslim country &#8211; well my friend, it&#8217;s different.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: sonia</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65773</link>
		<dc:creator>sonia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 21:13:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65773</guid>
		<description>interesting saqib. i think you&#039;ll find lots of people love talking about islam the caliphate and the ummah round here - ha ha. there was this whole thread elsewhere..can&#039;t remember now. we went on and on and on.arif asked some sensible questions and a lot of us had fun having a go at each other ( as we do :-)))

dunno where you grew up though, for some of us there is far more reality to this &#039;ummah&#039; and sharia business than &#039;debate&#039;. like can i just say i found out - very naive of me not to know - that i cannot initiate a divorce in my own country -isn&#039;t that nice? f**ckng mullahs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>interesting saqib. i think you&#8217;ll find lots of people love talking about islam the caliphate and the ummah round here &#8211; ha ha. there was this whole thread elsewhere..can&#8217;t remember now. we went on and on and on.arif asked some sensible questions and a lot of us had fun having a go at each other ( as we do <img src='http://www.pickledpolitics.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> ))</p>
<p>dunno where you grew up though, for some of us there is far more reality to this &#8216;ummah&#8217; and sharia business than &#8216;debate&#8217;. like can i just say i found out &#8211; very naive of me not to know &#8211; that i cannot initiate a divorce in my own country -isn&#8217;t that nice? f**ckng mullahs.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jagdeep</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65771</link>
		<dc:creator>Jagdeep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 21:02:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65771</guid>
		<description>Oh yes, Muslims need a special conceptual framework from everyone else, because they are exceptional, just like cheese and onion crisps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh yes, Muslims need a special conceptual framework from everyone else, because they are exceptional, just like cheese and onion crisps.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jagdeep</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65770</link>
		<dc:creator>Jagdeep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 21:00:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1151#comment-65770</guid>
		<description>Cheese and Onion Crisps!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cheese and Onion Crisps!</p>
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