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  • Technorati: graph / links

    Trouble in Punjab


    by Sunny on 18th May, 2007 at 4:00 am    

    Forget Russia, what the hell is going on in Punjab? This is what I can make out: A state-wide emergency has been declared in the state following clashes between Sikh groups and one man is now dead. The controversy has arise over some preacher called Baba Gurmit Singh Ram Rahim who runs a Dera (like an extended religious compound) in the state of Haryana called Dera Sacha Sauda. As it is, the Sikh officialdom are usually paranoid about such cults because they see them as subverting Sikh teachings. There’s a whole level of stupidity in such a stance but I won’t go into it for now.

    This Baba (teacher) was apparently wearing attire similar to Guru Gobind Singh Ji, the tenth and final Sikh Guru (teacher, not God), and the Sikh clergy have taken it as an insult to the Guru. Apparently there will be “dire consequences” if the Baba is not arrested and his organisation banned because he has “hurt Sikh sentiment”. So now people are trying to kill each other and the army has been called in. 15 others are in hospital from gunshot wounds. Around 20,000 Sikh youths have been seen going on a rampage.

    About time the Indian government started locking up religious “leaders” for suggesting “dire consequences” every time they are annoyed. This is the sad state Sikhs have been reduced to now, killing people over some cult leader. What a farce.
    [hat tip: Rumbold]



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    66 Comments below   |  

    1. Desi Baba — on 18th May, 2007 at 7:47 am  

      So it shows that not only Muslim radicals are extremists in the world with crazy ideas. Other religions have psychopathic religious idiots. Good article.

    2. Desiboy579 — on 18th May, 2007 at 8:18 am  

      As you sad, what a sad state for Sikhism. As for his attire, it’ll be interesting to know what he was actually wearing. As far as I know, we were ‘given’ the turban, not just as one of the five K’s, but also to remind us that we should be living a life in accordance to the Guru’s teachings, so in a sense, we all wear the Guru’s attire. Maybe one day, someone will burn as effigy of me.

    3. ChrisC — on 18th May, 2007 at 9:08 am  

      “About time the Indian government started locking up religious “leaders” for suggesting “dire consequences” every time they are annoyed.”

      Will you passing that idea on to John Reid?!

      (Although I guess he’s almost at that point himself…)

    4. raz — on 18th May, 2007 at 9:47 am  

      Where is Naxal1849, I’d like to see his comments on this :)

    5. curious? — on 18th May, 2007 at 9:49 am  

      The news reports, particularly from ibn and samachar are biased as they are favouring the dera and portraying the Sikhs as fanatics.
      The guy dressed up as Guru Gobind Singh and the photos were published in papers and pee’d alot of Sikhs off. The Sikh community demanded his arrest and launched a day of peaceful protest in Bathinda(dera stronghold)and elsewhere. Effigies of the baba were burned by Sikhs. The dera gangs in their thousands armed with lathi’s and swords attacked the protestors and turned on the police. The situation, already tense, quickly escalated and spread across punjab and into parts of haryana, rajasthan and west delhi. The Akal Takht held a Sarbat Khalsa in DamDama Sahib y,day attended by 300,000 armed Sikhs and demanded the arrest of the baba within 3 days. On the same day in talwandi dera supporters attacked Sikhs in Talwandi and one person was killed. Armed Sikhs have taken to the streets and surrounded the dera’s in punjab. The border with haryana is now sealed. Paramilitary forces are being sent to ‘restore’ order and will arrive in punjab by sunday.
      The baba is already under investigation by the cbi, click on the following link to learn more.

      http://www.sikhsundesh.net/sacha_sauda.htm

    6. Kulvinder — on 18th May, 2007 at 9:55 am  

      The guy dressed up as Guru Gobind Singh and the photos were published in papers and pee’d alot of Sikhs off.

      Man doesn’t infringe on the liberty of anyone

      The Sikh community demanded his arrest and launched a day of peaceful protest in Bathinda(dera stronghold)and elsewhere.

      Fascists demand action.

    7. curious? — on 18th May, 2007 at 10:01 am  

      kulvinder,

      I’ve only given a factual account.
      If you can call Sikhs who have pyaar for GurSikhi and are willing to stand up when someone mocks Maharaaj fascists then so be it.
      In that case I’m a fascist too :)

    8. Joe_Singh — on 18th May, 2007 at 10:09 am  

      Sunny you’ve forgot to mention the fact that this baba has claimed to BE Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

      That is what has pissed many off.

      I don’t condone the methods used to deal with this guy but it is a serious matter.

    9. Rumbold — on 18th May, 2007 at 10:10 am  

      Curious?

      “The news reports, particularly from ibn and samachar are biased as they are favouring the dera and portraying the Sikhs as fanatics … Armed Sikhs have taken to the streets and surrounded the dera’s in punjab.”

      I am sure that neither side is blameless, but arming yourselves, burning effigies and calling for the arrest of someone because he offended you has a whiff of the fanatical about it.

    10. Kulvinder — on 18th May, 2007 at 10:25 am  

      If you can call Sikhs who have pyaar for GurSikhi and are willing to stand up when someone mocks Maharaaj fascists then so be it.
      In that case I’m a fascist too

      I’m glad you can add the little smiley face at the end of that, clearly declaring yourself a fascist isn’t what it once was.

      You’re a fascist. No different to the totalitarian and authoritarian right.

      Sunny you’ve forgot to mention the fact that this baba has claimed to BE Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

      That is what has pissed many off.

      Yeah but he didn’t put a gun (or should that be sword) to anyones head and demand they listen and/or follow him. But then getting violently angry at what someone says is derigour amongst the insane. Apparently Theo Van Gogh had it coming to him.

    11. Kulvinder — on 18th May, 2007 at 10:30 am  

      nb are [i]your[/i] faith and [i]your[/i] god that insecure that they need to be ‘defended’ with violence when someone (a mortal human noless) says something out of turn??

      If you’re that afraid of this man perhaps there is something to what he says. After all the sikh gurus also had to fight fascism when pracitising something that went against the lunatic reactionary norm of the day, amirite?

    12. Jai on annual leave for a few weeks — on 18th May, 2007 at 10:55 am  

      Hmm, interesting events in my absence here as always. Kudos to Sunny for his article.

      Some thoughts:

      1. Alleged transgression by the Baba or not, Guru Gobind Singh actually gave explicit instructions involving exactly when violence is permitted (and to what extent). This does not include someone dressing up as the Guru, or even claiming to be him.

      2. I’m going to play Devil’s Advocate, so please bear with me…..

      =>”Sunny you’ve forgot to mention the fact that this baba has claimed to BE Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji…..That is what has pissed many off.”

      Understandable if his claim is false. Is it ?

      I’d be interested to hear what proof he has to support his claim. It’s not necessarily beyond the realms of possibility, given our troubled global times. However, I’d need to a) hear exactly what his teachings are, b) see what he’s like in terms of his personality, and c) as mentioned, consider his proof for his alleged identity.

    13. curious? — on 18th May, 2007 at 10:58 am  

      Kulvinder,

      Your ideals are different to mine and you’ll find it difficult to grasp the Sikh perspective in all of this. What this baba did is bang out of order and Sikhs have every right to protest.

      But when protestors are assaulted in planned attacks the situation is bound to escalate and spread.
      Furthermore Sikhs are meant to be shasterdhari so being armed is a requirement of Sikhi, attacking and killing inncoents isn’t.

      It’s nothing about insecurity but about protecting dharam, ideals that our Guru Sahibs taught us.

      If you still don’t understand then try to think outside the box and research about Sikh ideals and hurt sentiments further rather than whinging about something you can’t come to terms with.

      bye

    14. B — on 18th May, 2007 at 11:00 am  

      Kulvinder wrote:
      ‘If you’re that afraid of this man perhaps there is something to what he says.’

      Erm, no, he sounds like a bloody nutcase! He probably needs pyschiatric help.

    15. B — on 18th May, 2007 at 11:01 am  

      psychiatric

    16. Kulvinder — on 18th May, 2007 at 11:09 am  

      If you still don’t understand then try to think outside the box and research about Sikh ideals and hurt sentiments further rather than whinging about something you can’t come to terms with.

      So Sikhs with thin skins have magical powers that makes them hurt more? What exactly are you trying to say? I’d take it as obvious a person said something group (X) found offensive, i don’t need to ‘research more into sikhism’ (whatever that means) to understand that. If theres some magical scripture that makes sikhs particularly vulnerable id appreciate you just telling me.

      As it is you’re quite happily siding - and indeed naming - yourself with the fascists, when infact Guru Nanak and the other Gurus had to endure exactly this type of bigotry and fascism. That man has more in common with what the first sikhs had to go through than the mob that bayes for his blood and the sychophants that snigger on the sidelines.

      But then lets ignore that.

      Erm, no, he sounds like a bloody nutcase! He probably needs pyschiatric help.

      Unlike those that blow up airliners, or cinemas or start calling for the death of those that offend them. Those people aren’t nutcases.

    17. Roger — on 18th May, 2007 at 11:09 am  

      Is religion nothing but an excuse to kill other people and feel good about it?

    18. Kulvinder — on 18th May, 2007 at 11:14 am  

      Is religion nothing but an excuse to kill other people and feel good about it?

      Its a trait common in all philosophies and systems of thought. I doubt those who die for the (abstract) glory of nationalism or patriotism are better off.

    19. Kulvinder — on 18th May, 2007 at 11:20 am  

      Apologies for typos in all of the above.

    20. B — on 18th May, 2007 at 11:33 am  

      “The ultimatum came after Dera chief Baba Gurmeet Ram Rahim posed as Guru Gobind Singh, the Tenth Guru of the Sikhs, and distributing amrit (holy water) to followers in an advertisement.”

      Bloody. Nutcase.

    21. B — on 18th May, 2007 at 11:34 am  

      Kulvinder of course I don’t agree with people who do following:

      ‘blow up airliners, or cinemas or start calling for the death of those that offend them’..

    22. sonia — on 18th May, 2007 at 11:36 am  

      goodness me - craziness indeed. perhaps its something in the water.

    23. sonia — on 18th May, 2007 at 11:38 am  

      kulvinder makes the pertinent point in. no. 18.

      the way i see lots of religions manifesting themselves: it doesn’t seem to be very different to aay a kind of ‘nationalism’ if you will.. with the head of state up in the sky..sending ‘messages’ through the ether..

    24. B — on 18th May, 2007 at 11:44 am  

      Sounds like this Baba guy was deliberately trying to stir up violence…that should be an arrestable offence..and what with his questionable links to the Congress party..dear oh dear me..someone lock him up!

    25. Jazz — on 18th May, 2007 at 12:13 pm  

      Does anyone have a picture of this guy wearing the so-called attire of Guru Gobind Singh?

      I want to see the advert before I say anything further about his portrayal within the media.

      Having said that, the SGPC, Akali Dal, and the Dera Sacha Sauda seem to be equally to blame for the state of affairs in Punjab at the moment. It’s also not surprising that tensions have risen as soon as Akali Dal/BJP swept to power in Punjab…

    26. Jazz — on 18th May, 2007 at 12:25 pm  

      Oh, and in reply to curious?’s comment above:

      Sikhism is a faith which respects all other faith systems, be they offshoots of Sikhism or not.

      Have you forgotten that Guru Tegh Bahadar Ji gave his life for Kashmiri Hindus? He didn’t agree with their religion, but he agreed to their freedom of belief and worship.

      In the same respect, this individual may be hurting Sikh sentiments, but if you find yourself hurt at someone taking an advert out and portraying himself as an historical figure, is your self-confidence and belief in your own faith so weak that you can’t cope with a knock-back now and again?

      The Gurus all went through periods where they were ridiculed and subjected to intolerance in South Asia. The only time the Sikhs resorted to violence was in self-defence, and even then it was to protect others and they were always willing to give their own lives.

      Sikhism in its essence is a religion of live and let live - Guru Nanak’s own children formed religious sects, as did some of those of Guru Arjun Dev Ji and others. Banda Singh Bahadur nominated himself as the Leader of the Sikhs following Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s death, often taking on the same role as the Guru but without the title of Guru and without the religious teachings. The Ravidas sect believes in Bhagat Ravidas as being a Guru, and they have adapted their religion to suit their beliefs. The Namdharis believe that their leader is the current in the long line of Gurus that dates back to the Guruship of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

      Sikhism should be strong enough to be able to cope with the sentiments of a Dera that believes its own leader to be (if he so believes) the reincarnation of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

      If you ask me, this has more to do with the politics of running Punjab than it does with religion. And, according to the Tribune website, the Akali Dal and the SGPC will be in trouble if and when photographic evidence of their leading figures seeking blessings from Baba Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh are released to the media…

    27. Stussy — on 18th May, 2007 at 1:17 pm  

      Today, a bomb went off in a mosque in Hyderabad, killing 5 innocent people.

      Riots in Gujarat claimed thousands of lives and still the perpetrators walk free.

      Last week, 30 innocent people were shot dead in Karachi in fighting between ethnic groups.

      Across India Naxalite groups fight the state in a guerilla war.

      In Punjab, the Akali Dal panders to Dam Dami Taksal fundamentalists to create trouble. Politics and Religion is the bane of life in India and the subcontinent. The only question now is whether this will lead to a revival of the Khalistan movement, terrorism in Punjab, fundamentalists fighting and killing indiscriminately, sectarian war. That is what people should be worried about.

    28. Stussy — on 18th May, 2007 at 1:23 pm  

      Kulvinder, the DamDami Taksal, spiritual and ideological home of Khalistanism and Bhinderanwala, ideological proponents of Sikh-Taliban philosophy, are at the heart of this flare up. Rather like how when the BJP is in power in Delhi, the RSS and Bajrang Dal become emboldened and feel they can flex their muscles and make demands, and you see a rise in their activities as they feel immune and excitement, so do these feel their time has come with the Akali Dal in power. It is all about politics. You are perfectly right to say that these people are behaving like the tyrants they claim Sikhism opposes.

    29. Stussy — on 18th May, 2007 at 1:29 pm  

      curious says:

      ******If you still don’t understand then try to think outside the box and research about Sikh ideals and hurt sentiments further rather than whinging about something you can’t come to terms with********

      The only whinging comes from those who riot, make death threats, kick and scream like babies because they are too immature to deal with ‘hurt sentiments’ with maturity and without recourse to violence. In other words, you are the whinger.

    30. Jeevan — on 18th May, 2007 at 1:39 pm  

      The Sikhs are evidently, yet again(!) venting their frustrations on each other, and yet again(!) allowing external political elements manipulate them through religion. Why oh why can they not learn from past mistakes - these extremists did this less than two decades ago and look at the thousands who had to pay the price!!

      In-fighting to this degree weakens any faith - the guy is to put it politely, eccentric and should be laughed off, not entertained with bloodshed. The Sikhs are looking like fools, and it’s just so disappointing!!!!!!!!!!!!

      The religion dictates tolerance, the guy is offending but not physically so just let him branch off do his own thing and let his followers go with him. As long as orthodox Sikhs pass the word lightly through Punjab that someone random aligns themselves with the tenth Guruji he will be a laughing stock in no time in the temples.

      Akali Dal do need to maintain good relations with all Sikh sects to represent Sikhs in a positive light, to the rest of India- this is why Hindu Punjabis find it difficult to vote for them- they’re so volatile! Please don’t misunderstand me it doesn’t mean embrace these different beliefs as their own, but show respect for other’s faiths and beliefs.
      After all isn’t this one of the core beliefs that many Sikhs feel makes their beliefs “progressive”? As long as this ‘guru’ doesn’t re-integrate it into the faith then leave him and his minions to play dress up.

      I have to say it once more:DISAPPOINTED it’s quite insulting that Sikhs feel this guy is a threat to the faith. Not sure if it was covered here already, but this issue is also linked to the stabbing that took place at Sikh celebrations in Birmingham in a public park.

      Education, education, education this is severely lacking in temples nationwide across the UK and Punjab. Bhindranwale is considered a hero not the divisive fundamentalist, product of Indhira Gandhi he actually was.
      If humbleness is a positive aspect of being a good Sikh, ignorance is one of our greatest sins.

    31. B — on 18th May, 2007 at 1:58 pm  

      Stussy wrote:

      ‘The only question now is whether this will lead to a revival of the Khalistan movement’.

      And do you know why the demand was made in the first place? The Indian government has a lot to answer for.

      Jeevan, you made some great points. Education, education, education indeed!

    32. Kismet Hardy on laptop with smokes — on 18th May, 2007 at 2:16 pm  

      Punjabis like to drink. David Hasselhoff is famed for his drink also. The government should therefore employ David Hasselhoff to turn this incident into a biopic. Call it Babawatch

    33. Stussy — on 18th May, 2007 at 2:27 pm  

      B — as long as terrorist fascists dont start bombing and murdering and killing in the name of their murderous creed like they used to, I don’t care what their ‘demands’ are. If they want to go down that route again then I do care. Already the vultures are circling.

    34. uk85 — on 18th May, 2007 at 2:44 pm  

      Link 4 the pic which offended:

      http://www.barficulture.com/community/main/topic.php/48085/index.html

      @ Jeevan
      “I have to say it once more:DISAPPOINTED it’s quite insulting that Sikhs feel this guy is a threat to the faith. Not sure if it was covered here already, but this issue is also linked to the stabbing that took place at Sikh celebrations in Birmingham in a public park.”

      1st No Sikh feels threatened, this is a simple matter of dis-respect. As shown in the above link he is clearly seens distrbuting / sitting over ‘amrit’(holy water).

      2nd Birmingham incidents are not connected, stop talking S*hit u know nutting about. That was all to do with a certain Sikh temple in the area and it’s committee.

      And finally do you know anything about this sect?

      http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1926/stories/20030103003404000.htm

      NOW I WOULD NEWER WANT THIS ‘BABA’ assosiated with Sikhi let alone precalime to be Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji

    35. B — on 18th May, 2007 at 2:46 pm  

      Stussy wrote:

      ‘I don’t care what their ‘demands’ are’.

      I’m sure you don’t. Nor did the Indian government- and look what happened in 1984. You can’t treat the symptoms without addressing the cause.

      Common sense that the Indian government has failed- time and time again- to take on board.

    36. Stussy — on 18th May, 2007 at 3:20 pm  

      B —- demands demands demands demands — everyone can make demands. When they ally it to a fascist ideology and decide to kill innocent people in their fascist sectarian campaign I reject their right to couple ‘demands’ with terrorism. That’s the simple thing I’, saying. Act with maturity, not like violent children.

      1st No Sikh feels threatened, this is a simple matter of dis-respect.

      So it’s quite similar to the riots at the Birmingham Rep after some hotheads felt ‘disrespect’ and decided to go on a rampage. How immature and pathetic.

    37. Stussy — on 18th May, 2007 at 3:22 pm  

      uk85 — the fact that the Dera is obviously head deep in corruption, with charges pending, makes it obvious that this baba would have gone down through the criminal courts soon. These protests have only served to divert from that. Another example of Sikhs shooting themselves in the foot again.

    38. Jeevan — on 18th May, 2007 at 3:52 pm  

      UK85 - i found my information on http://www.sikhsangat.com - if my information was incorrect I do apologise, thank you for your eloquent response to my comment.

      What the Baba did was disrespectful, and as Stussy has pointed out if you are unable to have the maturity to take sentiments that are disrespectful - do you think people should be killed for the event that took place? - Or could the Sikhs simply distance themselves away from him and the Deras.

      As for Khalistan, B i agree the Indian government have a lot to answer for but how long is Punjabi politics going to be pre occupied with this cause? - and not tackling the corruption and the inequalities that are visibly having an impact on everyday life on all Punjabis.

    39. Jai — on 18th May, 2007 at 3:59 pm  

      Has anyone actually asked the Baba exactly why he dressed up specifically as Guru Gobind Singh ?

    40. Anas — on 18th May, 2007 at 4:19 pm  

      What does ‘Baba’ mean in this context?

    41. raz — on 18th May, 2007 at 4:42 pm  

      Terrorists bomb mosque in Hydrabad:

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6668695.stm

      Despicable.

    42. Jai — on 18th May, 2007 at 5:00 pm  

      =>”What does ‘Baba’ mean in this context?”

      Religious teacher, eg. guru (not in the sense of Guru Nanak, though), pir, saint, etc etc.

    43. Sunny — on 18th May, 2007 at 5:21 pm  

      Some typical comments here above. Look, a nutcase can dress up as whatever he wants to, it only becomes important if you give him credence. And that’s exactly what has happened here. It pains me to see Sikhs going around obsessing more about random babas and teachers than asking: “are we failing to provide spiritual upliftment to these people ourselves?”

      Frankly, if people want to pray to a baba dressed up as a donkey, let them. If they want to pray to some idiot pretending to be Guru Gobind Singh Ji - let them. For these people to demand he be arrested, when there’s no criminal offence involved, and the Dera be shut down, is an attack on other people’s freedom to practice what they want to. That is exactly what the Gurujis stood against.

      All this irony escapes the AKJ and Tat Khalsa idiots who like to pretend that the only true Sikh is someone who follows their views. Typical authoritarian fascism, as Kulvinder pointed out.

    44. lithcol — on 18th May, 2007 at 8:47 pm  

      “All this irony escapes the AKJ and Tat Khalsa idiots who like to pretend that the only true Sikh is someone who follows their views. Typical authoritarian fascism, as Kulvinder pointed out.’

      Not typical authoritarian fascism unfortunately, just an extreme lack of tolerance towards those who deviate from the true way. All belief systems, secular and religious are prone to it. Schisms abound around the world and there is much bloodshed as a result.

    45. sixsix — on 18th May, 2007 at 11:53 pm  

      The baba is being investigated for rape and murder allegations.Sunny i dont know where you got a mob of 20 000 sikh rampaging. A bit of intectual SUNsationalism

    46. sixsix — on 18th May, 2007 at 11:57 pm  

      Typical Congress tactics divide and rule while creating anarchy.During the 70s the congress used narankaris to divide the AKALI dal . Now they are using this baba and his followers

    47. Sunny — on 19th May, 2007 at 1:45 am  

      Funny that, apparently the Congress is behind everything… even though the Akal Takht is asking them to ban this dera. Sheesh!

      And read the reports above of 20,000 armed Sikhs attacking the Dera and others.
      When reports last came in, about 20,000 Sikh youths were on their way to attack and empty out another Dera shelter in Sangrur with at least 5,000 followers of Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh, leader the Sacha Sauda cult, inside the colony.
      http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Central_forces_rushed_to_Punjab_Haryana/articleshow/2058442.cms

      The baba is being investigated for rape and murder allegations

      However abhorrent that is (only molestation by the way), it has no bearing on this incident. It’s not why these idiots are fighting.

    48. Punjab_Flava — on 19th May, 2007 at 12:59 pm  

      Sunny - I disagree with you calling these Sikhs idiots. At the end of the day this ‘baba’ purposely dressed up like Guru Gobind Singh Ji to get some some sort of reaction and to cause stir amongst the Sikhs. Not only is he imitating Guru Gobind Singh Ji, he also claims to Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

      Now I am someone who does not get offended easily but this even enraged me slightly. I don’t agree with violence but I do believe he needs to stopped as he is causing hate and divide in Punjab.

    49. Jeevan — on 19th May, 2007 at 2:14 pm  

      Punjab_Flava, the hate and divide is being caused by both sides. I will be very unhappy if people are using my religion to commit violence, without thinking. Allow this guy and his followers the freedom to worship as they wish, outside of orthodox Sikhism.

      Sunny, check out the link below, politics and the Congress do have something to do with this - not because they are the Congress party, but because they are in the opposition in Punjab.

      http://www.indiaenews.com/politics/20070516/51910.htm

      India is steeped in corruption in everyday life, for the criminality not to work at the political level is hard for me to believe. I’m not saying they’re enitrely behind this but they will at the very least be fuelling this fire.

    50. Kulvinder — on 19th May, 2007 at 2:35 pm  

      . I don’t agree with violence but I do believe he needs to stopped as he is causing hate and divide in Punjab.

      No hes just practising his faith. If you want to censor him or stop him simply because you disagree with him im assuming you’ll be consistent enough to agree sikhs who wear turbans in britain are causing ‘hate and divide’.

      But im guessing juxtaposing that analogy will go right above your head and your reply will be something along the lines of

      ‘thats just different’

    51. Punjab_Flava — on 19th May, 2007 at 3:38 pm  

      ‘But im guessing juxtaposing that analogy will go right above your head and your reply will be something along the lines of

      ‘thats just different’’

      The above came across to me as being very patronising! I’m a turban wearing Sikh girl so of course I will disagree that the turban causes hate and divide. Me tying my turban has never caused any hate to be portrayed by me or against me. And I’ve certainly never used it to cause any form of divide. So that analogy was rather silly!

      This ‘baba’ is claiming to be Guru Gobind Singh Ji. This isn’t him trying to practice his faith. This is him trying to cause trouble in what already is unstable Punjab.

      If he wanted to create his own faith or practice his own faith, then good for him. But why claim to be the Guru of another religion?

    52. Kulvinder — on 19th May, 2007 at 3:52 pm  

      The above came across to me as being very patronising!

      It was meant to be.

      I’m a turban wearing Sikh girl so of course I will disagree that the turban causes hate and divide. Me tying my turban has never caused any hate to be portrayed by me or against me. And I’ve certainly never used it to cause any form of divide.

      Ah but you’re presupposing that ‘Baba Gurmit Singh Ram Rahim’ did everything out of sheer malice. You’re only taking your intentions when wearing a turban and ignoring the point that others may be (silently) offended. On the other hand you’re projection your objections to the non-violent acts of another person.

      Just because someone is polite enough to let you live your life the way you wish doesn’t mean they don’t disagree with it.

      If he wanted to create his own faith or practice his own faith, then good for him. But why claim to be the Guru of another religion?

      Why not? What possible difference does it make? Its his faith. He isn’t asking for riots to force you to follow his interpretation.

    53. Naxal 1849 Returns — on 19th May, 2007 at 5:10 pm  

      Don’t worry Sunny, this is just a one off post - I’m here on request by the way.

      You haven’t got to call the IT Tsars in to ban me again, I won’t be staying long.

      Right, I have read practically all of the posts on this thread and all have failed to point out what is actually what is going on.

      Let me tell you. In a nutshell, this Baba is very popular in the Malwa region of Punjab. The Akali Dal, Damdami Taksal, Babbar Khalsa didn’t give a damn about him or is activities UNTIL he got involved in politics.

      He happens to backs the Congress Party. He is thought to be behind the loss of around 20 Akali seats in the recent elections by openly telling his followers to vote for the Congress Party.

      The Akali Dal didn’t like this, so they have decided to start an agitation against him. What better way to do this than by invoking religion and the name of Guru Gobind Singh.

      There are thousands of other Babas just like him. But, if these Babas back the Akalis, then the Akalis leave them be.

      The Akalis are idiots. How they can claim to represent the interests Sikhism or Sikhs when they are in a coalition with the BJP is beyond me. It is time for them to be disbanded and destroyed. They have past their sell-by date.

      Simple.

      There is no point in people like Sunny concerning himself with doom prophecies, labelling Sikhs as ‘just like Muzzies’ and dragging Khalistan, Birmingham, Jose Murinio’s dog and Lichtenstein into the debate.

    54. newperson — on 19th May, 2007 at 9:40 pm  

      all of you are putting too much emphasis on his ‘dress’ did you forget that he distributed khandey di paul the same exact way guru did? according to our maryada only the punj pyare can do that. it wasn’t just a coincidence. he should release commandments like moses, or die on a cross like jesus, or do something mohamad did.
      and your also retarts for calling other ppl idiots because they are ‘akjs’ or ‘tat khalsas’ these werent the only ppl offended. down with akalis, and congress.

    55. Jai — on 20th May, 2007 at 11:57 am  

      =>”did you forget that he distributed khandey di paul the same exact way guru did? according to our maryada only the punj pyare can do that.”

      I didn’t think of that — it’s an absolutely brilliant point.

      Okay, I now think he definitely transgressed the limits of permissible behaviour with regards to Sikh religious issues. (Not that I think it warrants all the death threats, violence etc, mind you).

      I’d still like to hear the Baba’s explanation of why he thinks he (literally) really is Guru Gobind Singh reborn, if he has indeed been claiming this.

    56. steelman — on 20th May, 2007 at 2:38 pm  

      He’s a tosser trying to gain publicity and attract some thick Sikhs into his sect. What better way to do it than copy Guru Gobind Singh Ji?

      However there are loads of similar dera in Punjab using Sikhi concepts and beliefs to attract Sikhs. Obviously mainstream Sikhs are not happy about this situation and i think they have had enough of their religion being used to establish and promote other sects. I think this Ram Rahim issue is the ’straw that broke the camels back’.

      Personally i am waiting for the guy to copy the prophet Mohammed. That should be fun.

    57. B — on 20th May, 2007 at 4:43 pm  

      With rgeards to Naxal’s post- great point made:

      ‘Let me tell you. In a nutshell, this Baba is very popular in the Malwa region of Punjab. The Akali Dal, Damdami Taksal, Babbar Khalsa didn’t give a damn about him or is activities UNTIL he got involved in politics.’

    58. bikhair aka taqiyyah — on 20th May, 2007 at 7:06 pm  

      Sihks have great eyes and lovely proud noses. Except for Sunny. He just looks like a Puerto Rican.

    59. Jagdeep — on 21st May, 2007 at 4:06 pm  

      Oh dear — looks like the DamDami Khalsa-Taliban have been feeling neglected and decided to throw their toys out of the pram, how pathetic.

    60. Muhamad — on 22nd May, 2007 at 9:55 pm  

      ich bin eine poonjabber. :-)

      Sorry, couldn’t help but to wit JFK.

    61. snickers — on 23rd May, 2007 at 1:46 am  

      make up your own mind here is the picture of this ‘pakandi’ (fake) guru., I think he has crossed the line.

      http://www.panthic.org/news/125/ARTICLE/3288/2007-05-16.html

    62. Kulvinder — on 23rd May, 2007 at 10:35 pm  

      Darling there is no line; even if there were it would only measure your insecurity.

    63. Kulvinder — on 23rd May, 2007 at 10:41 pm  

      *markout your insecurity

    64. Khalistan Reloaded -uncleji — on 25th May, 2007 at 12:50 pm  

      The alarming about whats happening is that the Akali Dal’s Condemnation of the Dera was hijacked by Khalistan elements. They clearly of an eye on history it was clashes between Namdhari & Orthodox Sikhs over Namdhari aping the rituals of Orthodox Sikhism and fear of their political influence that kick started the career of Bindranwala & his ilk………….

    65. Jagdeep — on 25th May, 2007 at 12:56 pm  

      What do you expect of scumbags and fundamentalists Uncleji? They have been out of the spotlight for so long they must be having orgasms at the chance to stomp up and down like a bunch of baboons on heat in front of the cameras. There is no appetite for their nasty little ideology amongst the masses — anything that can plug them into popularity is their only way of gaining some traction. Plenty of hot air being blown in their ears by the Khalistani thickos and bigots squatting over their toilets in the diaspora too I should imagine. Some two faced coward from the Sikh Federation was interviewed in the Independent about it all.

    66. nobodys hero — on 27th May, 2007 at 12:46 am  

      Why are turban sikhs divisive lets all support chalothics school but fight against hindu muslims sikhs schools we dont like reglion but we are influenced by irish socialism This is england it is a church of england religion my taxes should not spread the religion of the people who support the nazis and ethinically cleansed south america. Because of the pope the irish supported the nazis. The turban head sikhs kick nazis in europe to fight for freedom dear kulvinder

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