I quite agree that Israel bears a huge responsibility with regards to the peace process, and I likewise despair of of its behaviour sometimes.

I also believe that not only does Israel have a right to exist, it is also necessary that it should. I do have difficulty reconciling this with the plight of the Palestinians, but I’m not sure what can be done about this except to hope sincerely for an acceptable two-state solution.

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=76733

Another round of bloodshed will occur when Kurds living in Turkey and Iran demand reunion with Federate of Kurdistan.

Heres 3 snippets from todays news alone, which is reason enough for the “rallying cry” to continue.

Israeli soldiers shoot Palestinian boy, 13

Palestinians hit by sonic boom air raids

racism at Hebrew University sports center

I could probably list similar event from the news for nearly every day, therefore causing you to accept that constantly worrying about certain issues is essential. This is the world in which we live and i for one am concerned about many issue including this one. I agree that many will support this famous one but ignore those in dafour, chechnya and ethiopia, but not me. I also know many that dont support and arab governments and are disgusted with the level of support for places such as dafour and Israel, as if it was substantial as it could be then we would have nothing further to worry about. In the meantime it would be a mistake to say that as the Palestiniens and sudanesse are practically helpless, they should “get over it” and accept their fate! This is what Israel wants, as does their supporters.

I know why you’re not going to bother with me anyomore, and thats cos I can see through you’re shit. You’re attempt to legitimaise your bias and you support and justify Israeli wrongs throguh ridiculous analogies and comparisons that are nothing like the situation in question. You can see that shit wont work with me.

You be-little the hurt and resent people feel people of having thier brothers and sisters in palestine being persecuted, by saying they care about thier own pride thats all.

You probably realise as much as I do you’re being a nob, but your agenda matters more to you.

“Hey, Pakistan did plenty of that during Partition (along with India) and during their war with Bangladesh. Have you not acceped that and moved on?”

Wrong can never be accepted. You obviously seem to think after a set periods of time, wrong can suddenly be parades as Okays, for certain purposes, such as wanting to write for a zionist media. You’re analogy is so wrong. Are you joking?? During partion people emigrated from one part of India to another, others were forced to flee their homes out of fear of persecution, noone can accept ethnic cleansing , people don’t forget those killed unfairly…..peace can be made though on mutual agreement. In the case of Bangladesh, peace was made between the countries, Pakistan isnt a rich country that it will pay reparations, but its President went against ego and pride and humbly regreted the excesses his nation carried out, whilst on a trip to Bangladesh.

In the same way….. Israel can apologise for the genocide in Palestine, the many slaughtered and driven out of their homes. It can then pay reparations. It can get out of the illegaly occupied land and go back to the 1967 borders. Israel has still on-going wrongs…. Its not even that people who feel ‘time nullifies wrongs’ can argue about….cos Israel is still to this day persecuting Palestinians.

“Have you not accepted the English letting millions of Bengalis dying pre-partition in the big famine? Are you going to be selective here?””

What has this got to do with driving people out of their homes?!? You seem to just pick random events in history and tell me I have accpeted them so I should accept Israel’s crime! Who are you trying to kid with your crap analogies pleaseeeee tell me. The english are not sitting on Bangladeshi land persecuting its people to this very day is it?!

Sunny you need to get off your high-horse of “ooo I look at all conflicts equally and nobody else in the world does!” So… there is an article on Israel on the site…of course I will speak out against Israel, in contrast to your apologist stance. But you accuse me of not caring for other conflicts…? How do you know whether I do or not??!

Why not bring up the other conflicts on this site and we’ll see ?? You have an article on Israel…. And not one on Sudan… then when someone speaks out against Israel you accuse them of being bias and not caring about Sudan. That is ridiculous. You might be able to pull the wool over the eyes of a small number of people who don stop and think about this and they might buy your ‘they are so selective but I am not’ , but to be honest you are yet again chatting shit by saying people are ‘selective’.

Hey, Pakistan did plenty of that during Partition (along with India) and during their war with Bangladesh. Have you not acceped that and moved on?

Have you not accepted the English letting millions of Bengalis dying pre-partition in the big famine? Are you going to be selective here?

Tanvir – I swear analogies go right over your head. I’m not even going to bother with more with you, it’s like talking to someone in a foreign language.

Jamal: As i have said, what Palestiniens are in fact accepting at present is the best decision in a bad situation where their choices are limited, their acceptance of Israel is far from the desired result.

Maybe so. But as I’ve asked before, do you want the best for Palestinians or is it about pride? Because the way I see it, Israel isn’t going anywhere, and to constantly hanker for its destruction is just like a silly rallying cry designed to keep Muslims thinking about something else.

Think about the Kurds for a second. Killed by the Turks and the Iraqis and Iranians. Where is your anger about that? Where is the demand for a Kurdish state? When does Turkey get told off by the Arab league or whatever for its behaviour? Why does Turkey keep hiding its massacre of the Armenians?

The point is, Muslims are manipulated to be constantly worried about certain issues. If people were consistent, like Arif is for example, I would have respect for the arguments people put forward. Except its the selective usage of data, and the particular focus on a few issues that annoys me.

1) No anger over the Darfur massacres…
2) no real Arab help for the Palestinians (the Arabs say: Look we won’t give you much money or our land, but we’ll fly the flag for you!).
3) The Armenians
4) The Kurds etc.

What nonsense are you spewing? Do you really think two civilised nations such as Israel and Pakistan are going to let terrorists dictate their national policies to them? Appeasers like you sicken me.

Agreed

2) The Palestinians have largely accepted the existence of an Israeli state. I say that because they recently overwhelmingly voted for the PA rather than Hamas, and the latter does not accept the existence of Israel.

Agreed

On that basis – how will things ever change if you don’t accept the existence of Israel?

Based on previous examples from elsewhere, there is no real solution. There will always be some that are discontent and agrieved on both sides, therefore fueling some extent of hostility for many years to come. As Israel is the agressor, then to accept Israel is to accfept defeat. What Palestiniens are in fact accepting at present is the best decision in a bad situation where their choices are limited, their acceptance of Israel is far from the desired result. The question you ask is the question asked by many. However it should not be ignored that is over rides the history, oppression and inequality of both the conflict and peace process. As i have said, what Palestiniens are in fact accepting at present is the best decision in a bad situation where their choices are limited, their acceptance of Israel is far from the desired result.

Bangladesh doesn’t evict and keep out its natives

What about the Budhhist Chakmas in Chittagong ?

So much for frienship of Israel and Pakistan.

Remember the ghastly murder of Daniel Pearl ?

North Caucasus is inhabited by a large number of ethnic peoples. No one can claim it as their own exclusively.

As far as independence is concerned..forget it. When Soviet Union disintegrated in 1991 they gave independence to all and sundry including Kyrghizistan but not North Caucasus.Why? North Caucasus is European Russia’s getaway to the most important,exciting and emerging marketplaces China, India and Southeast Asia.They will never let this Strategically important location out of their hands.

Poor human rights ….and poor human rights coupled with evicting people from their own country, keeping them out and occupying more of the little bit they have left are VASTLY different matters…..The Israeli occupation is continually being paraded by its lobbyists and apologists as merely a political disagreement, ignoring the fact that it is illegally occupying land.

Maybe Israel will take another huge chunk next year, and give back a tiny patch elsewhere, call it disengagement, and 5 years down the line you can call it ‘political change’ and legitimise the theft.

Do you know what the principles of Zionism are and how it has been implemented in modern times? (…and no the answer isnt JUST : “ if promoted well will get you a proper job in western media”)

Why are you making this debate boring, with crappy LAME analogies. Bangladesh doesn’t evict and keep out its natives, nor does Chechnya, you can cloud facts with these weak comparisons but the readers aren’t stupid.

With the Bangladesh-pakistan analogy, you must think we are stupid. Pakistanis dont turn around and deny Bangladesh’s independence infact no-one in the world contests it was a legtimate struggle, not even the pakistanis. The two issues are so different. Israel was SUPPOSED to be created out of political change, but instead, from day one its creation has been marred by ethnic cleansing, genocide and continual occupation of a part of Palestinine it was not given.

Israel needs to give up the stolen land. The vast majority of Muslims are never going to let this go until the end of the world. Get over it.

So Russia should accept Chechen independence ………

My question is after the independence of Chechnya what if the Yakuts too want independence and Mongolians want union with Mongolia and the chinese who are slowly but surely starting a demographic invasion of Russia demand a country of their own ?

I’d make one point however – “how absurd would be it be for a Pakistani to turn around and say – “well just because Bangladesh has been around for 30 years doesn’t mean I have to accept its independence. It was created through Indian brutality!”” – absolutely right and despite the traumatic nature of 1971, most Pakistanis readily accepted the independence of Banglaesh. It took only a few years from 1971 for Pakistan and Bangladesh to form solid relations with one another Nobody in Pakistan questions the existence of Bangladesh. Sadly, it IS absurd that many people in India refuse to accept the reality of Pakistan. Even 50 years on, it’s common to hear Indians complaining about the parition of ‘their’ country. Senior Indian minsters still are quoted of speaking of a Pakistani-Indian union. It’s ironic that despite the fact that India liberated Bangladesh, today Pakistan has better relations with Bangladesh then India does – witness India’s constant whining about terrorism in Bangladesh, regular border exchanges between the Indian and Bangladeshi military which see soldiers being killed and the spectacle of Bangladeshis supporting Pakistan against India in cricket matches played in Dhaka. Not to mention the fact that Pakistan sells arms to Bangladesh which may well be used to defend their country against India. There is a stark contrast between the relations of Pakistan and Bangladesh 30 years on from independence and the relations between India and Pakistan 50 years on from partiton. If Pakistanis can accept the reality of Bangladesh than Indians should accept the reality of Pakistan.

My point about Bangladesh and China was simply this. If Bangladesh refuses to trade or recognise someone on the basis of their human rights records, then does it trade with China or not? Let’s be consistent here!

The Russian – Chechen thing was also an analogy, but more for Jamal than yourself. My point was that we have to recognise changing political situations, rather than saying: “well just because it happened 50 years ago doesn’t mean I don’t have to accept the creation of Israel”.

So Russia should accept Chechen independence in the same way that others (like Pakistan-Bangladesh) have had to accept changing political situations.
How absurd would be it be for a Pakistani to turn around and say – “well just because Bangladesh has been around for 30 years doesn’t mean I have to accept its independence. It was created through Indian brutality!”

If the Saudis accept the need to go back to internationally recognised borders – then why don’t they keep saying it and tell off Iran when it says it wants Israel off the map? The Saudis say a lot and do something else.

As evidenced by the inaction on Darfur.

I’ll summarise for your benifit.

Bangladesh, is just one example of many many states that reject ties with Israel until it delivers justice to the Palestinians, this does not necessarily mean ‘wiping Israel of the map’. This justice has several dimensions (because the Palestinans have been wronged in so many ways) but even if some of them were met it would make a great deal of progress, such as withdrawing from occupied land, and retreating to the internationally recognised borders.

The Saudis a few years back, proposed Israel withdraw to internationaly recognised borders and it can have recognition, and ties to the Muslim world.

This is not compatible with the religious ideology and plans for Israel’s existance (she wants all of the promised land…duh!)… so Israel opts for plan B to get recognised by the huge part of the world its isolated from..and that is bullying/bribing with the help of its allies, as I suspect has happened with Pakistan, instead of what it should do – which is the right thing – get out of land that is not Israel’s, and let Palestine be independent, not small pockets of land, land and air locked by Israel.

Oh…and as for the ridiculous and inapropriate lame comparisons section:
Where does China come into this?!? Who are they occupying? And Chechnya…Did the Chechens invade Russia, displace Russians and then declare independence?? – they are natives in thier own land, who didnt throw out anyone living there….but being dominated and treated like shit by the Russians. *sigh*..again…diverting from the issue…

Let’s make a few assumptions first (though if you disagree with them, then argue on that).

1) Israel is not going to be dissolved without significant killings on both sides, possibly a nuclear war.

2) The Palestinians have largely accepted the existence of an Israeli state. I say that because they recently overwhelmingly voted for the PA rather than Hamas, and the latter does not accept the existence of Israel.

On that basis – how will things ever change if you don’t accept the existence of Israel?

Take some examples. India won’t own all of Kashmir, and neither will Pakistan ever have full control of that state. You know they both need to accept that to move on.

East Pakistan (Bangladesh) will never be part of West Pakistan ever again.

On the same basis, Russia can say it will never accept the creation of an independent Chechen state. But since you make the assumption that political situations should not change, then you can’t, on the same principle allow the creation of Chechnya.

Point is, your principles have to be consistent, otherwise anyone can point holes in your arguments and dismiss them.