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  • Technorati: graph / links

    Jack Straw’s scaremongering


    by Rumbold
    9th January, 2011 at 10:23 am    

    Following the conviction of a mainly Asian group of Jack Straw spoke of a culture which sees Pakistani men view white women/girls as ‘easy meat’, and that this is a specific problem in parts of his area. Mr. Straw did not mention any other ethnicity, so one would expect to see evidence that Pakistani men in Lancashire were far more likely to be convicted on sexual offences then non-Pakistanis. Chris Dillow has the statistics:

    Table 5.4b of this pdf shows that, in the latest year for which we have data, Lancashire police arrested 627 people for sexual offences. 0.3% of these were Pakistanis. That’s two people. 85.5% were white British. In Lancashire, there are 1,296,900 white Brits and 45,000 Pakistanis. This means that 4.163 per 10,000 white Brits were arrested for a sex crime, compared to 0.44 Pakistanis. If you’re a journalist, you might say that the chances of being arrested for a sex crime are nine times greater if you’re white than Pakistani.

    Most (if not all) sex offenders have contempt for their victims, and it might well be that some Pakistani sex offenders draw their contempt from their culture/background. But, on a statistical basis, given the far higher prevalence, as a percentage, of white people who commit sex crimes, Mr. Straw might well ask what it is about white Western culture that allows sex offenders to see their victims as ‘easy meat’. Asian gangs who go round grooming women/girls for sex need to be crushed and locked up. As do white gangs and any other combination of gangs. Based on available evidence, it is unclear why focusing on the racial element will benefit anyone, and given the statistics we have at present, is likely to reduce the chances of stopping such crime in the future (as resources will shift anyway from where they are most needed).

    Update: Platinum786 makes some excellent points in the comments below:

    (Reposted from the comments): Straw mentioning race wasn’t helpful as he did it in a generic manner, Pakistani men don’t see white women as easy meat, British Pakistani sex offenders do, but if he had said British Pakistani sex offenders see white women as easy meat, it wouldn’t have been such a great headline, for the below reasons;

    – The word British would have been used, giving these guys a British identity and background, which they do have, meaning they’re part of our society, not outsiders raping our women.

    – It would have included the term sex offender, and frankly most sex offenders see their victims as easy meat.

    Rather he generalised, and got the desired headlines.

    There is a culture within the chav equivalent of the British Pakistani community to have relationships with underage white girls (which in itself is abuse), and obviously in the cases mentioned a greater level of actual abuse. The first tendency is no more abusive and racist, than the fathers of the hordes of teenage mums we face in Britain from other ethnic groups.

    They target white girls, because the underage girls are naive, they are easier to access, no risk of honour killings, no risk of them being old enough to not be impressed by fake designer clothes and 20 year old Beemers, etc. These people are scum, but they’re not all race motivated sexual predators, they’re quite equal opportunities with it all, it’s just easier for them to get access to white girls.

    There is no doubt in my mind these men have no value for women, but we are dealing with different levels of perverts. These guys locked up (not for long enough might I add) are the worst level, but there is a larger number of people in our community, young men, men in their late teens early 20?s, who don’t see bedding a 14-15 year old white girl as a problem.

    As a community we don’t do anything about this. Part of it is because the people who know about it are their peers, not their elders, secondly, very few people know facts, we Pakistani’s live in Ghetto’s i know in our city anyway, these guys pick up girls from the City centre or the white ghettos.

    Part of it is, the kind of lads who do this, come from families who don’t give a damn, these are the kind of lads who at school profess ambitions to become Taxi drivers of work in takeaways, they come from backgrounds where nobody cares. As long as their lads don’t marry a white girl, they don’t care who they spend the night with.


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    Filed in: Current affairs,EDL






    196 Comments below   |  

    Reactions: Twitter, blogs
    1. sunny hundal

      Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH


    2. Jae Kay

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH


    3. dontplaymepayme

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH


    4. Peter

      RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH < Finally some actual stats. Please read.


    5. Milena Buyum

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH


    6. the credo

      RT @PME200: RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH < Finally some actual stats. Please read.


    7. ianbirrell

      Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/h5qKyF (h/t @sunny_hundal)


    8. SSP Campsie

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH


    9. Tamsin Dunedain

      RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH


    10. emma dow

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH


    11. Peter

      @fellsidefezza Have you seen @Sunny_Hundal's article? Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH


    12. Keith BlakemoreNoble

      @bengoldacre though you might find @sunny_hundal blog interesting re Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH sorry if already seen.


    13. Vijay Singh Riyait

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH


    14. Leonardo Morgado

      RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH


    15. Sharanjit Paddam

      Jack Straw's scaremongering has really pissed me off RT @sunny_hundal http://bit.ly/hZfOqH


    16. Sim-O

      RT @Lord_Credo: RT @PME200: RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH < Finally some actual stats.


    17. Farid

      @JeromeTaylor “@sunny_hundal: Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH”


    18. Najm Clayton

      RT @lpmorgado: RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH


    19. Leon Green

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH


    20. Nemesis Republic

      @CactusMouth Here's a good article putting Straw into context #EDL won't read it of course http://tinyurl.com/32h397m


    21. Leon Green

      RT@sunny_hundal: Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH


    22. Socialist Doctor

      @sunny_hundal Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH Excellent use of statistics to expose gratuitous populism


    23. Kevin Dykes

      RT @ianbirrell: Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/h5qKyF (h/t @sunny_hundal)


    24. richdavidson

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH


    25. Coventry Rape Crisis

      A response with some police stats to Jack Straw's 'easy meat' comments. http://fb.me/CPcV0Fc9


    26. Therese

      RT @CRASAC: A response with some police stats to Jack Straw's 'easy meat' comments. http://fb.me/CPcV0Fc9


    27. Shamaila

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH


    28. Dan

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH


    29. Ian

      "This means that 4.163 per 10,000 white Brits were arrested for a sex crime, compared to 0.44 Pakistanis" http://bit.ly/e5OHL8


    30. Ben Ravilious

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH


    31. Chris Paul

      .@nickgriffinmep <- #damagedgoods explain!! you fascist racist BNP hater http://bit.ly/e5OHL8 9 times sex crime arrests for Griffin's chosen


    32. Kash Farooq

      "Chances of being arrested for a sex crime are 9 times greater if you’re white than Pakistani" http://bit.ly/e5OHL8 h/t @alomshaha #straw


    33. Dancing Piglet

      Hear hear. RT @PME200 RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH < Finally some actual stats. Please read.


    34. Anne Fay

      RT @kashfarooq: "Chances of being arrested for a sex crime are 9 times greater if you’re white than Pakistani" http://bit.ly/e5OHL8 h/t …


    35. Philippe Legrain

      RT @SmallCasserole: in Lancs "4.163 per 10,000 white Brits were arrested for a sex crime, compared to 0.44 Pakistanis" http://bit.ly/e5OHL8


    36. Philippe Legrain

      RT @SmallCasserole: sex-crime arrests in Lancs (per 10,000 people): white Brits 4.2, Pakistani descent 0.44 http://bit.ly/e5OHL8 #jackstraw


    37. Philippe Legrain

      @8minstosunrise re jack straw see this: http://bit.ly/e5OHL8


    38. Rich Mallett

      RT @sunny_hundal: Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH


    39. Graham Williamson

      RT @SmallCasserole: sex-crime arrests in Lancs (per 10,000 people): white Brits 4.2, Pakistani descent 0.44 http://bit.ly/e5OHL8


    40. Marcel Duda

      Pickled <b>Politics</b> » Jack Straw's scaremongering http://goo.gl/fb/qFXZN


    41. Elizabeth Balkovec

      RT @CRASAC: A response with some police stats to Jack Straw's 'easy meat' comments. http://fb.me/CPcV0Fc9


    42. Alison Charlton

      @jamgyal Not right statistically: http://bit.ly/hZfOqH For me, focus on race of perps detracts from issue of what makes girls vulnerable.


    43. Maajid Nawaz

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH


    44. Abdul-Azim Ahmed

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH


    45. Cally Jaymes

      "Follow this…" Pickled Politics » Jack Straw's scaremongering: This means that 4.163 per 10000… http://bit.ly/i8kHMt "Follow CallyJ"


    46. Dr Fouzia Sadiq

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH


    47. Tim Holmes

      Jack Straw engaging in cynical, racist scaremongering. Predictably. http://is.gd/krDBu | http://is.gd/krDXN


    48. Adam Casey

      Pickled Politics » Jack Straw’s scaremongering - http://j.mp/i9pINE This is the reality behind "but it's true though" racism, it just isn't.


    49. Iman Qureshi

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : Jack Straw's scaremongering http://bit.ly/hZfOqH


    50. parveen hassan

      RT @CRASAC: A response with some police stats to Jack Straw's 'easy meat' comments. http://fb.me/CPcV0Fc9


    51. Statistics Prove Jack Straw WRONG and bias « Awakening Tempest

      [...] Pakistani men praying on vulnerable women - I found some very interesting statistics over at Pickled Politics: Table 5.4b of this pdf shows that, in the latest year for which we have data, Lancashire police [...]


    52. Ministry of Truth » Blog Archive » Asian ‘sex gangs’ and statistical limitations

      [...] the last few days, proponents of the view that Jack Straw was scaremongering when he suggested, on Newsight, that there is a specific problem with some Pakistani men which [...]


    53. Rob Bailey

      Occurrence of sex crimes in Lancashire 9 times greater among white men than Pakistani men (via @plegrain) http://bit.ly/eQRXhd #bbcqt


    54. links for 2011-01-20 « Embololalia

      [...] Pickled Politics » Jack Straw’s scaremongering Most (if not all) sex offenders have contempt for their victims, and it might well be that some Pakistani sex offenders draw their contempt from their culture/background. But, on a statistical basis, given the far higher prevalence, as a percentage, of white people who commit sex crimes, Mr. Straw might well ask what it is about white Western culture that allows sex offenders to see their victims as ‘easy meat’. Asian gangs who go round grooming women/girls for sex need to be crushed and locked up. As do white gangs and any other combination of gangs. Based on available evidence, it is unclear why focusing on the racial element will benefit anyone, and given the statistics we have at present, is likely to reduce the chances of stopping such crime in the future (as resources will shift anyway from where they are most needed). (tags: british.asians uk sexual.violence crime racism) Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)I was on TV!! GA_googleAddAttr("AdOpt", "1"); GA_googleAddAttr("Origin", "other"); GA_googleAddAttr("theme_bg", "eeeae8"); GA_googleAddAttr("theme_text", "000000"); GA_googleAddAttr("theme_link", "497ca7"); GA_googleAddAttr("theme_border", "eeeae8"); GA_googleAddAttr("LangId", "1"); GA_googleAddAttr("Tag", "delicious"); GA_googleFillSlot("wpcom_below_post"); LikeBe the first to like this post. [...]




    1. joe90 — on 9th January, 2011 at 10:41 am  

      The statistics from the post show white men commit 85% of the sexual crimes and pakistani 0.3% in lancashire area.

      I can’t see how jack straw will get away with those comments they are racist. On figures so far he doesn’t have a leg to stand on.

    2. earwicga — on 9th January, 2011 at 10:53 am  

      Rumbold - what are the figures for gang rapes?

    3. claude — on 9th January, 2011 at 11:21 am  

      In fairness though, Jack Straw was referring to a particular type: the on-street grooming of girls. He also did specify quite clearly that “overwhelmingly the sex offenders’ wings of prisons are full of white sex offenders”, so I think the reaction to his words is being quite hysterical to be honest.

    4. Trofim — on 9th January, 2011 at 11:32 am  

      joe90 @ 1

      The statistics from the post show white men commit 85% of the sexual crimes and pakistani 0.3% in lancashire area.

      At the last census, the population of Lancashire as a whole was 94.7% white. It would appear, therefore, that white men are underachieving as far as sexual crimes are concerned.

    5. damon — on 9th January, 2011 at 12:09 pm  

      Having read so much of this in the last two days, I feel that it’s almost a waste of time debating it.
      See Liberal Conspiracy, Harry’s Place, and this Guardian CIF article to see what I mean.
      http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jan/07/grooming-racialising-crime-tradition

      Everyone has their opinion, and many of them are just incompatible. And I don’t just mean between those people arguing that what Straw said was completely over the top (it was) and EDL types. In my opinion the CIF article was useless, and some of the readers comments under it say why.

      Maybe the problem is highlighting a particular type of crime and a way that it comes about and talking of paterns that police and others have seen.
      Like gun crime in the black community. The police have Operation Trident for that. Maybe that too is a problem and there shouldn’t be such a police operation. Just police working against gun crime in general.

      People will believe what they want to believe.
      I would say that there is a cultural factor to this, and it’s about how people of different communities are living their lives.

      I listened to people talking about this on Talk Sport radio last night (which is a bit like ‘EDL Radio’ sometimes). One woman from Glasgow rang in who was quite liberal and thoughtful about this, but being a sex worker, she said that Asian lads were of a particular problem for being a pain in the arse. Making abusive phone calls for a laugh, coming by and wanting to come in, but as a group they were clearly out for some high jinks and just being obnoxious.
      And I thought how that sounded pretty plausible and fitted in to a certain patern. These lads would be driving around at the weekend looking for some excitement, while non muslims were in the pubs and going clubbing, which these lads may well feel excluded from. So they drive about in a couple of cars looking for amusement.

      And I’m not even talking about the crime of grooming and sex abuse here, but lads from one community who are free to be out late at night but have no chance of getting close to women unless they can chat up some white girls.

    6. David Waldock — on 9th January, 2011 at 12:19 pm  

      Note that the statistics don’t show that *anyone* committed a sexual offence, they show that people were arrested for alleged offences.

      How many allegations didn’t result in arrests? How many allegations pertained to white vs pakistani men? How many of those allegations were true? How many were malicious? How many were NFA’d? How many went to court? How many resulted in convictions? When did the offences happen relative to arrest? In which county did the offence occur compared to the arrest? How many arrests were for offences of the type for which these people were eventually convicted (for example, domestic child sexual abuse may attract a different profile of offender to dark alley rape)?

      The statistics aren’t that helpful to be honest - and personal anecdote suggests that different people offend in different ways for different reasons. Trying to draw conclusions (a la Jack Straw or a la this post) based on such scant information seems to me to be doomed to failure.

    7. Boyo — on 9th January, 2011 at 2:08 pm  

      This issue has been common knowledge for years. The Lancashire press have run with it, and five years ago as an adjunct to some research I commissioned around young people and drugs, the researchers spoke of some “truly awful” qualitative stuff around under-16s being groomed by Muslim men they’d come up with which “no one wanted to deal with” (drugs are often used as part of the process).

      Talk of conviction rates rather misses the point - ie, that the authorities are FAILING to do anything about this problem for fear of being labeled racist.

      If they were convicting them then it wouldn’t be such a scandal.

      Straw’s comment about Pakistanis doesn’t help - it’s largely Muslims actually. It also doesn’t help that the only people who have been prepared to say anything about this until now have been the BNP. Labouristas in their Jimmy Choos should be ashamed.

      I didn’t read the recent Times articles, which of course we cannot link to, but saw the headlines and thought - ah, so it’s finally come out. Needless to say it was Murdoch paper that broke it - so much for the Guardian et al. And yes, I guess I was also part of the “liberal conspiracy”, but wtf would believe me?

      I think the peado angle is somewhat misleading - yes these are children, but they’re not abused because these people are those kind of perverts, it’s because they’re young, naive women curious about sex and easily impressed. They get ‘em while they’re young.

      It’s a perfectly logical coincidence of Islamic repression and Western permissiveness. Both cultures are to blame.

    8. Hermes — on 9th January, 2011 at 2:48 pm  

      Jack Straw is only voicing the views of thousands of ordinary people in Lancashire who talk about this in pubs and in their homes. I bet most of them have been puzzled by the lack of police action in the past. It is not crimes like these, but the conspiracy of silence that breeds hatred and resentment.

      Keeping quiet about these Muslim guys does not make the problem go away.It makes it worse and the likes of EDL will get stronger.

      By the way, where are all the Pakistani guys on PP? I cant wait to hear what they have to say about this.

    9. claude — on 9th January, 2011 at 2:51 pm  

      This is Hagley Road to Ladywood’s reply to this post and Chris Dillow’s comments - http://tiny.cc/fqt5v

    10. AbuF — on 9th January, 2011 at 4:06 pm  

      Gosh, it is comments (from some) on threads like this that made me flee the UK - and latterly to discover that these commonplace, lazy assumptions and prejudices are just as commonplace and lazy elsewhere…

      Life is crap; and then you die - as my mum used to say.

      I would suggest people travel a little. The world is full (unfortunately) of terrible people - and (as sure as eggs are eggs) each and every one has some excuse (religious, cultural, political, etc) for the nauseous, terrible things that they do. Friend and foe alike.

      Life is shit; and then you die.

    11. Jemmy Hope — on 9th January, 2011 at 4:30 pm  

      Is this Jack Straw, friend of the mass-murderer Pinochet? Jack Straw promoter of an illegal war? Who listens to this self-confessed lawbreaker?

    12. damon — on 9th January, 2011 at 4:48 pm  

      This is Hagley Road to Ladywood’s reply to this post and Chris Dillow’s comments –

      Well said Claude, that is so refreshing to read after all the guff that has been spoken about this (more widely) in the media and on some blogs. I think you’ve really nailed it.
      ——————————————-

      This point below has also been overlooked somewhat:

      And, in fact, the chief executive of charity Barnardo’s implied it when he said that “[his] staff would say there is an over-representation of people from ethnic minority groups among perpetrators - Afghans, people from Arabic nations, Pakistanis. But it’s not just one nation”.

      Which kind of makes it worse, but why wouldn’t Afghans and people from Algeria find the behavior of young British women somewhat perplexing and intriguing?

      This trend of some muslim guys behaving like jerks has also shown itself in Australia, where (even though it’s a complex issue all by itself) there was a perception of groups of Lebanese males (and only ever groups of males) ariving at the beaches around Sydney and being somewhat boorish and breaking the ”codes of the beach” … which I think are taken very seriously in Australia. Mostly about not being a dick and disturbing other beach users and being respectful of the authority of the life guards etc, and certainly not to pester women who were there on their own, or play agressive games of football amongst the sunbathers.

      Along with issues of racism, it led to the Cronulla riots.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Cronulla_riots

      A media report claimed that there was already tension between the community and Lebanese youths before this event and people, particularly women, claimed to have been harassed, almost daily, by “groups of young Lebanese men” attempting to “pick them up” and describing the women as being “Aussie sluts”.

      What I’ve quoted there doesn’t break down into statistics that you can put in a pdf file, but it was the perception of many Ausies in 2005.

    13. Konnu — on 9th January, 2011 at 4:57 pm  

      Straw has given credence to the racists’ wet dream. Take, for example, the white-obsessed EDL pin-up, Andrew Gilligan, who can’t help giving credit to the BNP for getting this right:

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8248347/Are-white-girls-really-easy-meat.html

      What does he blame for Pakistani sex crimes? Religion, of course. And who does he blame? The largely Bangladeshi East London Mosque, of course.

      Good job there are white establishment journalists like him who will bravely point their pens at the savage shortcomings of ‘darkies’ who have stepped beyond their restaurants.

    14. AbuF — on 9th January, 2011 at 5:06 pm  

      Good job there are White politicians who are not afraid to confront the nasties (of whatever shade, colour, complexion or even - dare I suggest it - politico-religious mein, you surely mean.

    15. Rumbold — on 9th January, 2011 at 5:28 pm  

      Earwiga:

      I don’t know.

      Claude, Boyo and others:

      A few points. Jack Straw knew what he was saying. This is classic political posturing, a few days before an election in an area with plenty of people who would sympathise with what he was saying.

      I don’t deny that some Asian gangs do such a thing, or that it should just be ignored, but, based on the current evidence, it is a societal problem rather than a specifically Pakistani problem.

      On ‘honour’-based violence, the vast majority in Britain is carried out by certain groups (such as Pakistanis). There is nothing wrong in saying that. I don’t see a parallel here though, certainly in percentage terms. Talking about it as a problem with one particular doesn’t help, as the focus should be on prosecuting sex offenders regardless of race, religion or whatever.

    16. Boyo — on 9th January, 2011 at 5:53 pm  

      Ironically i think it’s possible Straw used the term “Pakistani” because he didn’t want to say “Muslim”.

      I agree it is a societal problem, and one which our society has created: liberalism’s blind refusal to acknowledge any problems may arise from throwing very different cultures together; their success in suppressing dissent or even duty (it appears) on the part of the authorities for fear of being labeled “racist”; the breakdown of white working class values through an insidious dependency culture - the bourgeois have thrown a whole class on the scrapheap, so it’s little wonder their children become pray to pimps. Macho Muslim culture may be the perpetrator but the real villains are the policy makers who have been content to pacify the people with handouts while taking all the goodies for themselves.

    17. fred — on 9th January, 2011 at 6:41 pm  

      “Tough days ahead for young white men. They’ll have to personally denounce the AZ shooter, apologize to Americans, explain and… oh wait.”
      Laila Lalami

      Why havent Rumbold, damon , boyo etc denounced the killings in Arizona?

    18. Don — on 9th January, 2011 at 6:47 pm  

      Because they secretly sympathise? Can’t think of another reason.

    19. Boyo — on 9th January, 2011 at 6:57 pm  

      Ha-ha. Well, that’s not this thread - that’ll be the Pakistan one.

      As it happens I think there are plenty of parallels - the Arizona shootings remind us that fundamentalism is not isolated to Islam, nor is extremism.

      The great irony is that liberals here often defend religious bigotry simply because it is anti-Western and “in a minority”, yet would be repelled by the same bigots for whom Ayatollah Palin is the cheerleader. And they’re quite incapable of seeing the irony. That’s sophistication for you.

    20. Cluebot — on 9th January, 2011 at 6:58 pm  

      Ironically i think it’s possible Straw used the term “Pakistani” because he didn’t want to say “Muslim”.

      Bingo.

    21. halima — on 9th January, 2011 at 8:25 pm  

      Why should Jack Straw not say Pakistani Muslims if this is indeed the group he is referring to?

      Would it suffice if we spoke about Christians or Jewish people, bearing in mind these are groups only share a religion, surely there’s more going in in any group other than a religion?

      I loathe to put anything down to cultural factors - isn’t it simply a criminal offence that needs dealing with? if it was inherent to the gene pool of Pakistanis- surely all Pakistanis would be at it? Gang rape, that is. As it stands, gang rape is something all groups participate it - I am sure. It’s probably statistically more relevant that men commit gang rapes but fortunately we’ve learned to be more discerning and not paint the picture that all men will commit gang rape given a lack of recreation and no contact with young women.

      Frankly, this is a problem that needs tackling and isn’t new, but why it has to be discussed in racial terms is beyond me. Would anyone have listened to Jack Straw if he was discussing a crime that was committed by the 85% of sexual offenders in Lancashire who are white British? In fact, if there were no British Pakistanis involved in this terrible phenomenon (the statistical equivalence of 2 people that Rumbold refers to), would we be discussing it? We should be, but would we be if a couple of British Pakistani guys were not involved? I hope the authorities start paying more attention to the situation of vulnerable young woman across the country, if it’s neglected it’s a terrible indictment on us all.

      Who says that Muslim men who don’t date and don’t have sex are therefore more prone to be cruising the streets looking for easy meat? Those that don’t date get married early, so this idea that Muslims are running around craved for sex because they can’t date is ludicrous.

      I am sick and tired of people saying you can’t talk about certain problems if they’re committed by non-white groups, it’s all we ever talk about - take the example of black crime, does anyone ever talk about white crime? I am not saying we should talk about crimes in this way, but it is ludicrous that people talk about black gun crime . Isn’t it just gun crime? When we talk about domestic violence do we talk about white female victims of domestic violence`

    22. sean o — on 9th January, 2011 at 8:55 pm  

      “As it stands, gang rape is something all groups participate it”

      Well actually, in the case of non-grooming gang rape the trend is one of predominantly black offenders.

      13 years ago, Darcus Howe discovered that in 80% of gang rape cases, the defendants were black.

      A couple of years ago The Standard discovered that 92% of gang rape suspects were non-white.

      The police response was to rename gang rape to “multiple-perpetrator rape” to avoid ‘stereotyping’ the crime with ‘racist’ connotations.

    23. earwicga — on 9th January, 2011 at 9:01 pm  

      sean o - but this is to do WITH grooming. That is what I was asking Rumbold above - those stats would be the most pertinent here. I think that name change also reflected that it had to be more than 2 rapists, i.e. 3+ to be considered gang rape as well.

    24. Bored in Kavanagasau — on 9th January, 2011 at 9:03 pm  

      Rumbold

      Are you saying, for instance, in the Stephen Lawrence case, the more relevant message was that of knife crime in the capital, which has resulted in many more deaths of teenagers than racist attacks (many of them black) since the murder of Stephen Lawrence, and that this message delayed by concentrating on the relative ethnicities of the victim and attackers. That would be a consistent position with your OP, rather than subsuming certain crimes within wider crime stats because highlighting the ethnicity of the assailants makes you uncomfortable.

    25. Shamit — on 9th January, 2011 at 9:46 pm  

      excellent points Halima as always.

      brilliant analysis as well.

      Rumbold - good points about Oldham election; seems to me that’s part of the reason why this came out today.

      Good post.

    26. Sean O — on 9th January, 2011 at 10:19 pm  

      earwicga, I didn’t bring the subject up, Halima did. I am just pointing out facts on the subject raised, what is wrong with that?

      And the name hardly needed changing from ‘gang’ to ‘multi’ to demonstrate that 3 or more people were involved. How many two people gangs have you ever heard of?

    27. earwicga — on 9th January, 2011 at 10:39 pm  

      Sorry Sean O, I wasn’t trying having a go. I would though still like to know the pertinent facts regarding the grooming and rape of girls and young women by gangs in the areas of the UK being discussed, and I haven’t seen them yet.

      Agree that redefining terms was pointless.

    28. damon — on 9th January, 2011 at 10:42 pm  

      Rumbold.

      Jack Straw knew what he was saying. This is classic political posturing, a few days before an election in an area with plenty of people who would sympathise with what he was saying.

      I can’t believe that Jack Straw is a man so corrupt and malacious that that was his motivation.
      That everything he has ever stood for as a young man when he joined the Communist Party and the Labour Party, could all be thrown away in the hope of winning a by-election, and he would even poison race relations to achieve a few hundred votes for Labour.
      If he did that, I will never vote Labour again and this is a national scandal far bigger than anthing else in the country right now. Bigger than what the Tories are doing with cuts, or student fees or anything that Sunny is campaigning for right now.

      Halima, I think there is something cultural to it, in the way that black and white and Pakistani origin people relate to each other socially in these northern towns.
      If the only way that some asian young guys are mixing socially with white people is when some asian lads are trying to chat up white girls, then although there is nothing wrong with that in itself, if that is the only Pakistani-white socialising that there is in a particular town, then it is perhaps the beginnings of something that you might want to keep an eye on.

      If whites and Pakistani origin people are mixing and socialising normally and striking up friendships and there is cross racial dating, that is perfectly fine, but if the Pakistani guys are only trying to meet white girls and it’s always done away from white males and other friends and families of the girls, perhaps again it’s something that parents and communities might be concerned about.

      I have been out in Leicester Square in London late at night at the weekend and seen something going on that I didn’t really understand. Loads of ”asian guys” who must have all planned to meet up in Soho around midnight, as there were maybe a dozen or more car loads of them and they were parked up, and others were driving around and around Soho in a late night trafic jam, windows down, blowing their horns, calling out to people. God knows where they came from. East Ham, Southall? I don’t know, but they seemed to be part of a larger group, and they were definitely working class guys, flash hair cuts and flash cars. Kind of like a ”flash mob” ;)

      Anyway, I have this idea that while the white blokes are all in the pub getting pissed on a friday night, you get similar purely Asian origin meet ups up in Yorkshire and Lancashire and the midlands.
      Nothing wrong with that either, but it is a cultural thing. It’s what some lads do instead of going to the pub.
      A bit like at the beginning of this youtube from Birmingham.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE7Xng1FEz0

    29. earwicga — on 9th January, 2011 at 10:46 pm  

      Damon -

      If the only way that some Asian young guys are mixing socially with white people is when some Asian lads are trying to chat up white girls

      Spectacularly missing the point! As only you can (pretend) to do. Well done.

    30. fred — on 9th January, 2011 at 10:52 pm  

      damon

      I can’t believe that Jack Straw is a man so corrupt and malacious that that was his motivation.
      That everything he has ever stood for as a young man when he joined the Communist Party and the Labour Party, could all be thrown away in the hope of winning a by-election, and he would even poison race relations to achieve a few hundred votes for Labour.
      If he did that, I will never vote Labour again and this is a national scandal far bigger than anthing else in the country right now. Bigger than what the Tories are doing with cuts, or student fees or anything that Sunny is campaigning for right now.

      Yes but you’re a hopelessly naive ignorant idiot so you would fall for that

    31. douglas clark — on 10th January, 2011 at 12:42 am  

      damon,

      Jack Straw is an ‘interesting’ character. I seem to recall he has ‘form’ on the basis of cultural signifiers, such as the burkha?

      Why is it so difficult to see that the timing of the statement might be an issue not unrelated to an election?

    32. damon — on 10th January, 2011 at 1:06 am  

      Because Douglas, that would make him a monster.

      Spectacularly missing the point! As only you can (pretend) to do. Well done.

      You do continue to say things like that earwicga.
      I can only guess why as you never say.

      If you never saw this Newsnight story from several months back about segregation in Oldham, it is part of the idea I’ve been trying to outline.
      Not very well maybe, but it’s not so easy with people like you, who criticise, without saying anything much themselves.
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8881030.stm

      I have an idea that ‘segregation’ has something to do with all this. I have no idea what you think as you haven’t said.

      Earwicga, did you see Claude’s Hagley Road to Ladywood blog post? … @9
      I thought it was very good. What about you?

    33. earwicga — on 10th January, 2011 at 1:17 am  

      Yes damon, I too thought it was good. I think you tend to engage in winding up people a lot, that is what is meant by that comment.

      I don’t want to say much about this as I wouldn’t dismiss so easily a theory that racism is a motivator in the abuse these victims have suffered. I don’t know, as I don’t think I’ve seen any convincing stats one way or the other. And I wouldn’t take Newsnight to report fair and square either. I did read a thread on Mumsnet though which was very interesting and was peppered by people who live in the area and have more knowledge on what actually happens there.

      Jack Straw is a ‘monster’. That word is as good as any. His comments, and their timing, were purely political.

    34. douglas clark — on 10th January, 2011 at 1:26 am  

      Damon,

      Has it occurred to you, perish the thought, that he is a bit of a monster?

      Frankly I can’t get a handle on what you believe or disbelieve. You are slippery like that :-)

      It is not fair enough to just ignore Rumbolds’ point about the timing of this statement. I think, much as Rumbold appears to think, that timing is all in the release of this statement.

      Would you care to discuss why Jack Straw chose this exact moment to release his controversial views on ‘grooming’? Not next week or summat?

      Nowt to do with an election?

      __________________________________________

      I’d have thought that the whole idea of getting young women addicted - which is surely the point here - in order to exploit them sexually is just what criminals do. I’d have thought it was endemic in the criminal class, whether you were a white, brown or black pimp.

      So, as always*, I agree with Rumbold. At 15, specifically.

      What is wrong with you people?

      ___________________________________

      * Except when he is being a libertarian :-)

    35. joanne — on 10th January, 2011 at 3:13 am  

      Straw’s just trying to play Bangladeshis off against Pakistanis in advance of the Oldham by-election. Oldham has the highest percentage of Bangladeshis outside of East London.

      He’s hardly the best person to go lecturing on sex crimes given his own brother was put on the sex offenders register for 5 years in 2000.

    36. Refresh — on 10th January, 2011 at 3:29 am  

      ‘He’s hardly the best person to go lecturing on sex crimes given his own brother was put on the sex offenders register for 5 years in 2000.’

      Didn’t know that, but how is that relevant?

    37. damon — on 10th January, 2011 at 3:56 am  

      Well maybe Straw is guilty of that amount of criminal cynicism. I wouldn’t have guessed it, but you can never know for sure.

      You can find some stats if you go looking for them.
      I’ve done that in the last hour, and quickly got on to some very racist website about Scandinavia, but there was this Youtube. It’s a Norwegian policewoman talking about a particular type of rape. They call it ‘assault rape’, done by strangers in the street rather than where people might have know each other before hand, which is probably more common.

      This is just the youtube, It’s not embedded in the race hate site as I won’t link to that.
      It’s only three minutes long, and it offers some sobering statistics.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvlFm4AwAqI

      Maybe there shouldn’t be a seperate category for assault rape in Norway, as in the last three years in Oslo, all 41 of them have been carried out by what the policewoman calls ‘relatively young men who come from other countries’.

      And earwicga, there’s no need to see that as a ‘wind up’. It’s just something that is the case in Norway.

    38. Boyo — on 10th January, 2011 at 7:30 am  

      “His comments, and their timing, were purely political.”

      Well, there’s that and two consecutive front page stories on the Times last week. Perhaps as a local MP he simply felt he had to respond.

      You lot will be talking about international bankers next ;-)

    39. islamistoss — on 10th January, 2011 at 7:43 am  

      What can u expect from the followers of a cult built around the ravings of a mass-murdering kiddy fiddler?

    40. douglas clark — on 10th January, 2011 at 7:43 am  

      Off topic.

      Fascinating that my last two posts about AbuF failed to appear.

      What the heck is going on? Is AbuF some sort of hero on here that can’t be talked about?

    41. douglas clark — on 10th January, 2011 at 7:54 am  

      Last three or four posts now.

      What the fuck is going on Sunny!

    42. Boyo — on 10th January, 2011 at 8:02 am  

      Someone’s probably cut the line down to England Douglas ;-)

    43. douglas clark — on 10th January, 2011 at 8:20 am  

      Boyo,

      Well it seems to have intermittent service. :-) If I mention Faisal, then the line drops. It is ridiculous.

      Either you, well not you, Pickled Politics, accept comment from the likes of me or they don’t. I do not recall another situation where my posts, en masse, have been dropped.

      Faisal has a few points in his favour and an enormous backlog of stupidity.

      Just why my posts, commenting on that, have been refused is beyond me.

      I’d have thought I was in here with the bricks.

      How wrong was I?

      Commenting on Abu F / Faisal means that your comments don’t appear?

      Well, fuck that. That is cheating on regular commentators like me in favour of some sort of rock star person like AbuF.

      Just saying….

    44. douglas clark — on 10th January, 2011 at 8:21 am  

      Boyo,

      No reply appeared :-( I have been consistently censored.

    45. AbuF — on 10th January, 2011 at 10:03 am  

      Do get a grip, douglas.

      I would recommend leaving the booze alone for a bit. It is clearly not efficacious.

    46. AbuF — on 10th January, 2011 at 10:06 am  

      Incidentally, Douglas, I am not Faisal.

      Rampant paranoia, an enormous sense of your own entitlement and litanies of ad homs aimed at others do your reputation little good.

      After all, why should anyone take such unhinged comments even remotely seriously?

    47. AbuF — on 10th January, 2011 at 10:07 am  

      Douglas.

      Rampant paranoia, an enormous sense of your own entitlement and litanies of ad homs aimed at others do your reputation little good.

      After all, why should anyone take such unhinged comments even remotely seriously?

    48. Boyo — on 10th January, 2011 at 10:10 am  

      Hold on. Is AbuF Sid/Faisal? That’s funny, I was just saying how much I missed him on another thread!

    49. Boyo — on 10th January, 2011 at 10:11 am  

      Hey - it’s true - I just used the S/F reference and my post didn’t come up for the first time ever (because I always comment in moderation, mostly always). There’s obviously a block on. I wouldn’t take it personally…

    50. Rumbold — on 10th January, 2011 at 10:29 am  

      Douglas:

      Don’t mention the S-P-I-T-T-O-O-N. Otherwise you will be caught in spam (that goes any any linkages too). I have now cleared your comments.

    51. Rumbold — on 10th January, 2011 at 10:37 am  

      Thanks Shamit and Douglas.

      Heh Boyo (#42).

      Bored in Kavanagasau:

      Are you saying, for instance, in the Stephen Lawrence case, the more relevant message was that of knife crime in the capital, which has resulted in many more deaths of teenagers than racist attacks (many of them black) since the murder of Stephen Lawrence, and that this message delayed by concentrating on the relative ethnicities of the victim and attackers.

      Not sure the comparison is relevant. As Chris Dillow showed, the percentage of Pakistanis accused of sex attacks in far lower (certainly in Lancashire, which Jack Straw was talking about).

      Damon:

      I can’t believe that Jack Straw is a man so corrupt and malacious that that was his motivation… If he did that, I will never vote Labour again and this is a national scandal far bigger than anthing else in the country right now. Bigger than what the Tories are doing with cuts, or student fees or anything that Sunny is campaigning for right now.

      Without wishing to be rude, is this sarcasm? He is a career politician with a history of baiting and populism. He is also a crook:

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5293369/Jack-Straw-apologises-for-bungling-claim-MPs-expenses.html

      If my post stopped even one person voting Labour then it was worthwhile.

    52. douglas clark — on 10th January, 2011 at 10:46 am  

      Well Rumbold, there you go again. I never mentioned the dreaded S-P-I-T?-O-O-N. I mentioned, and in not a particularly favourable way someone that used to comment on here.

      What the heck is going on. This, it seems to me, is censorship. And, whilst you and I have our disagreements, I’d have thought our mutual disapproval of censorship isn’t one of them.

      Remind me, what is it exactly we do disagree about?

    53. Rumbold — on 10th January, 2011 at 11:01 am  

      Douglas:

      It isn’t censorship. The word sets off the spam filter. Swearing occasionally does too. Heh.

    54. platinum786 — on 10th January, 2011 at 11:09 am  

      Straw mentioning race wasn’t helpful as he did it in a generic manner, Pakistani men don’t see white women as easy meat, British Pakistani sex offenders do, but if he had said British Pakistani sex offenders see white women as easy meat, it wouldn’t have been such a great headline, for the below reasons;

      - The word British would have been used, giving these guys a British identity and background, which they do have, meaning they’re part of our society, not outsiders raping our women.

      - It would have included the term sex offender, and frankly most sex offenders see their victims as easy meat.

      Rather he generalised, and got the desired headlines.

      There is a culture within the chav equivalent of the British Pakistani community to have relationships with underage white girls (which in itself is abuse), and obviously in the cases mentioned a greater level of actual abuse. The first tendency is no more abusive and racist, than the fathers of the hordes of teenage mums we face in Britain from other ethnic groups.

      They target white girls, because the underage girls are naive, they are easier to access, no risk of honour killings, no risk of them being old enough to not be impressed by fake designer clothes and 20 year old Beemers, etc. These people are scum, but they’re not all race motivated sexual predators, they’re quite equal opportunities with it all, it’s just easier for them to get access to white girls.

      There is no doubt in my mind these men have no value for women, but we are dealing with different levels of perverts. These guys locked up (not for long enough might I add) are the worst level, but there is a larger number of people in our community, young men, men in their late teens early 20′s, who don’t see bedding a 14-15 year old white girl as a problem.

      As a community we don’t do anything about this. Part of it is because the people who know about it are their peers, not their elders, secondly, very few people know facts, we Pakistani’s live in Ghetto’s i know in our city anyway, these guys pick up girls from the City centre or the white ghettos.

      Part of it is, the kind of lads who do this, come from families who don’t give a damn, these are the kind of lads who at school profess ambitions to become Taxi drivers of work in takeaways, they come from backgrounds where nobody cares. As long as their lads don’t marry a white girl, they don’t care who they spend the night with.

    55. Rumbold — on 10th January, 2011 at 11:23 am  

      Platinum786:

      That is a brilliant comment.

    56. sofia — on 10th January, 2011 at 12:06 pm  

      I agree with platinum’s comments. Also, if Jack Straw really wanted to, he could have done this a lot differently. Instead he’s managed to stigmatise and alienate a part of his constituency that could have helped him. This is not a short term fast fix and it is NOT a solely pakistani community issue. Those girls were probably not from well to do middle/rich classes so there has to be, as platinum pointed out, a social deprivation, self esteem and general exploitation issue at large

    57. douglas clark — on 10th January, 2011 at 12:31 pm  

      Rumbold,

      So where’s my post? Is it orbiting some other star or summat? It has disappeared. It is indeed a dead parrot. It was a post of very little worth perhaps, but mostly it did not deserve to end up in the black hole of the new (?) comments policy.

      When did you start to subscribe to censorship? I can see the point about stuff that may see you victims of litigation. I can, almost, see the point about sweary stuff turning off readers. I cannot, for the life of me, see why a series of my posts have been redacted.

    58. damon — on 10th January, 2011 at 12:32 pm  

      Rumbold

      Without wishing to be rude, is this sarcasm? He is a career politician with a history of baiting and populism.

      No it’s not sarcasm, it’s just highlighting the accusation - as if it was true, then Straw is no better than David Duke, whose website I came across last night when I was googling around for stats on this kind of (wider) issue.
      At least David Duke is honest about what he says … unlike Straw it seems. Perhaps Labour should be declared a fascist party then, because Ed Miliband hasn’t denounced him, just Keith Vaz and a couple of others.
      This is not sacrasm, just trying to draw accusations out to their logical conclusions.

    59. Brownie — on 10th January, 2011 at 12:39 pm  

      Rumbold, why do you keep talking generically about the stats on “sex attacks”? We’re (supposed to be) discussing a specific sort of offence that looks to be occurring dsiproportionately in a certain part of the country. For the offence under discussion, the stats are pretty unequivocal. Now, that doesn’t mean conclusions are therefore easy to draw, but this muddying of the waters by talking about other offences just looks like an obvious diversion.

      Jack Straw knew what he was saying. This is classic political posturing, a few days before an election in an area with plenty of people who would sympathise with what he was saying.

      So nothing at all to do with the Times having broken this story days earlier and the item finding itself near the top of the news agenda, and Jack Straw representing a Lancashire constituency with a large ethnic minority and therefore being a rather obvious politician to ask about this phenomenon?

      Maybe Murdoch and Straw were in cahoots in a desperate attempt to win Oldham for Labour…except the Times supports the coalition…or something…

      BTW, the current polls strongly suggest Labour doesn’t need any help winning Oldham.

      Straw is saying what Mohammed Shafiq knows to be true and which he himself has acknowledged using slightly difference language.

      Some young Pakistani men have a backward view of young white girls in their midst, some Catholic Priests (I’m guesing almost exclusively white) abuse children. Who knew, eh?

    60. Boyo — on 10th January, 2011 at 1:16 pm  

      Well i agree with Brownie and Platinum (probably cos they’re both saying what I have already), although I would add that this is not quite as simple as picking up 14/15 year old girls for “an easy shag” so to speak.

      This is the systematic targeting of these girls who are “passed around” as little more than prostitutes and often made dependent on drink or drugs, torn away from their families, etc.

      This is a serious problem. Looking at conviction rates doesn’t really work because these kids will often not testify if action is taken etc.

      Platinum’s point about them not being middle class is the crux - as I said above, the lack of action is symptomatic of the disinterest the establishment has for a class intentionally thrown on the scrapheap.

    61. Brownie — on 10th January, 2011 at 1:26 pm  

      Platinum,

      I agree with some of what you say, but this:

      They target white girls, because the underage girls are naive, they are easier to access, no risk of honour killings, no risk of them being old enough to not be impressed by fake designer clothes and 20 year old Beemers, etc. These people are scum, but they’re not all race motivated sexual predators, they’re quite equal opportunities with it all, it’s just easier for them to get access to white girls.

      And then this:

      As long as their lads don’t marry a white girl, they don’t care who they spend the night with.

      How can the home environment which you acknowledge as racsit (or at the very least bigoted) not influence the attitudes and actions of “their lads”? And doesn’t the fact that “it’s just easier for them to get access to white girls” help cement this prejudiced view that white girls are easy and, in the final analysis, low value?

    62. damon — on 10th January, 2011 at 1:27 pm  

      As for platinum786′s post, Boyo made a somewhat similar reference @7 and I tried to highlight that to.
      That yes there is criminal rape of underage girls, but there is also a wider trend of young men (chavs, platinum calls them) who will try their luck with picking up white girls (as they are the only ones it’s possible with) when they are out cruising about in thier cars away from thir own neighbourhoods.

      Now look at earwicga’s post @29 again where she says to me: ”Spectacularly missing the point! As only you can (pretend) to do. Well done.”

      As, if you want to keep this focused clearly on stats, criminality, rape and pedophillia, you really won’t want to be delving too much into a wider culture of how these things might play themselves out in northern towns that are socially seggergated along race and culture lines.

      Things that there might not even be any stats on, because it’s just ”chavs” who are quite young themselves, picking up teenage girls, and it doesn’t turn out to be the most brutal kind of rapes, but just cynical under age sex, with dollops of misogyny and racial and religious chauvinism thrown in.

      And btw, when did calling ”chavs” scum become acceptable? Of course some of them are, but then we quickly fall into demeaning all these working class Pakistani lads who have the street culture and the ”asian chav” look.
      We critiscise the police when they single out young people for having the street culture, and harassing them for ”driving while black” (or asian).

      Just on the statistics I came across last night about Oslo. They aren’t comfortable figures and I wonder how you could rationalise them:

      The Oslo Police have over the past three years investigated 41 cases of aggravated sexual assault, which resulted in rape. All of them were carried out by non-western immigrants to Norway.

      http://www.norwaypost.no/news/immigrants-behind-most-cases-of-aggravated-sexual-assault.html

      You might say that this needs to be kept in perspective. That Oslo is a big city of over a million, and that these aggravated rapes, although none were done by ethnic Norwegians, ‘only’ happen about once a month - although the figure for 2010 was 21 which bumps that figure up closer to two a month.
      But it’s a big city, and most sex offenders in Norway are still ethnic Norwegians.

    63. Brownie — on 10th January, 2011 at 1:30 pm  

      Lastly, we need to be careful about this notion that the victims all hail from the vulnerable underclass. A victim spoke on TV yesterday to emphsize the point that in many cases we’re talking about ordinary girls from ordinary families who are no different to the 13, 14 and 15 year olds living around the corner from you and me. In the words of the young woman yesterday:

      “These girls aren’t ‘vulnerable’. They’re innocent.”

    64. Boyo — on 10th January, 2011 at 2:21 pm  

      Hm. Well, I think if they’d been targeting young gerls in Tumbridge Wells we’d have heard of it by now.

      The fact that the parents of these girls are themselves largely from the WWC, and therefore quite specifically the people whose opinions count for least, is precisely why this phenomenon has gone unreported for so long.

    65. damon — on 10th January, 2011 at 2:21 pm  

      Never fear - Yasmin’s here :)

      http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhai-brown-jack-straw-is-right-to-ask-hard-questions-about-asian-men-2180318.html

      Yasmin Alibhai Brown: Jack Straw is right to ask hard questions about Asian men

    66. Kismet Hardy — on 10th January, 2011 at 3:15 pm  

      I’ve taken advantage of a vulnerable white girl. She was upset her dick boyfriend was being a dick, we got drunk, I showed her a good time, then we had sex. I thought this was because I was just a chancer bloke, but it’s obvious now that that I must be a Pakistani.

    67. Bored in Kavanagasau — on 10th January, 2011 at 3:25 pm  

      The liberal-left response is puzzling. The news is, finally, out with the most mainstream media outlets (Times and BBC) discussing it. Quite why the liberal-left blogosphere has tried to subsume this issue after the event and smear Jack Straw as racist (comparisons with the KKK and Nazi Germany have been brought into the equation by some). Remember any anti-ethnic minority riots after 7/7 and the murder of Mary-Ann Leneghan? Jack Straw wasn’t exactly playing with white British fire here, probably becuase the majority white community are best able to deal with these matter with civility, in contrast to the case in Lozells. (The Clash wrote a song about this.) Britain isn’t like India where, after the accidental fire on the train in Godhra, Hindus murdered several thousand Muslims. Racist murders after 7/7 showed a decline in the years remaining of the noughties compared to the five years before.

    68. Rumbold — on 10th January, 2011 at 3:30 pm  

      Douglas:

      I have cleared everything now from the spam filter. Rest assured, there were no human agents involved in blocking you (which suggests you know something about the machines they don’t want anyone else to know).

      Damon:

      Perhaps Labour should be declared a fascist party then, because Ed Miliband hasn’t denounced him, just Keith Vaz and a couple of others.

      Well, plenty of Labour supporters were cheerleaders for/funded by fascist regimes, most notably the Soviet Union, so it wouldn’t be a great leap in historical terms (though that is not to ignore the contribution people like Atlee amde to fighting communist-fascism).

      Brownie:

      I think Platinum786 summed up what I wished to say. I agree that people shouldn’t pretend it doesn’t happen at all, but the problem was with Straw racialising this, but not doing the same for say, the ring in Cornwall- why the double standards from him? Nor, as you say, was he the first one who raised the story, but I believe his words were timed to bolster Labour support in a constituency which was last one by Phil Woolas, an unpleasant race baiter.

      Boyo:

      Indeed, and I am impressed that you commissioned such research- often these things need work at the ground level, not just from a central source.

    69. to damon — on 10th January, 2011 at 3:38 pm  

      damon

      Never fear – Yasmin’s here :)

      And the truth is here :)

      http://thethirdestate.net/2010/11/daily-mail-lies-are-asian-gangs-targeting-white-girls/

    70. Brownie — on 10th January, 2011 at 4:59 pm  

      I agree that people shouldn’t pretend it doesn’t happen at all, but the problem was with Straw racialising this, but not doing the same for say, the ring in Cornwall- why the double standards from him?

      This won’t do. First of all, Straw didn’t ‘racialise’ anything. He talked specficailly about a small minority of young ‘Pakistani’ men - he didn’t say Muslims (for obvious reason), he didn’t talk about Asians (because this is does not involve gangs of Chinese, Japanese and Cambodian men) and he didn’t refer to skin tone.

      Second, I believe 85-90% of men in Britain are whites of non-immigrant parents. What BNP racists pricks might call ‘real’ British. I’ve no doubt these ‘real’ British dominate the stats in all levels of crime. I’m going to take a punt and suggest they do so disproportionately for car crime, burglary and public order offences. I’m guilty of stereotyping here, but I bet I’m right. The information I’ve read on sex crime says there is no racial/ethnic indicator and Jack Straw went to lengths to emphasize this in his comments. Which is why there’s no point anyone trying to draw hard and fast conclusions about the racial/ethnic charactersitics of the Cornwall paedo ring. What the Times uncovered is that for a specfiic sort of sex crime, in a specific geography, young Pakistani men dominated the stats - hugely - and there is a suspicion that this reflects a certain attitude towards the ethnicity of the victims. As mentioned previously, Mohammed Shafiq has referneced this himself on more than one occasion as have other (for want of a better phrase) community spokespeople. It isn’t just Jack Straw saying this so it would be great if you could stop pretending it is.

      Nor, as you say, was he the first one who raised the story, but I believe his words were timed to bolster Labour support in a constituency which was last one by Phil Woolas, an unpleasant race baiter.

      Who is now a covicted criminal. There is more reason to suggest that any attempt to ‘racialise’ the vote this time around would be met with an even greater bakclash than there is to claim playing the same game again will win additional votes. Seems counter-intuitive to me, not leasst because Labour looks like it is going to stroll to victory in this by-election regardless. He has no need to play this card even if he wanted to. And I don’t think it would be hard to find Asian voters in his Blackburn constituency who have known him as their MP for more than 30 years who would vouch for his non-race-baiting character.

      As you well know, this story was dominating the news agenda before Jack Straw opened his mouth. And British Pakistanis - historically predisposed to voting Labour - do exist in Oldham and Saddleworth and do have the vote. Disagree with Straw if you want, but the ulterior motive stuff is just baseless smear, and a ‘smear’ that lacks any intellectual rgiour whatsoever.

    71. lies, damned lies — on 10th January, 2011 at 5:04 pm  

      Brownie

      What the Times uncovered is that for a specfiic sort of sex crime, in a specific geography, young Pakistani men dominated the stats – hugely – and there is a suspicion that this reflects a certain attitude towards the ethnicity of the victims.

      But this is because “Pakistani” men predominate in this area just as white people do nationally.

      BTW anyone see this story?
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-12143586

    72. DavidMWW — on 10th January, 2011 at 5:11 pm  
    73. Bored in Kavanagasau — on 10th January, 2011 at 5:52 pm  

      http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/pakistan/Not-just-White-girls-Pak-Muslim-men-sexually-target-Hindu-and-Sikh-girls-as-well/articleshow/7254035.cms

    74. Bored in Kavanagasau — on 10th January, 2011 at 5:57 pm  

      I’m not commentating on the veracity of the above allegations, which could be just an attempt by non-Muslim Asian groups to put some distance between them and Muslims: I think that was the article DavidMWW was trying to link.

    75. douglas clark — on 10th January, 2011 at 6:07 pm  

      Bored in Kavanagasau @ 73, 74, etc.

      Thanks for clearing up the link. You live in Fiji and you are bored! There just isn’t pleasing some folk.

    76. Bored in Kavanagasau — on 10th January, 2011 at 6:13 pm  

      douglas

      I live in Britain; it is just a reference to summer holidays there when I was young.

    77. douglas clark — on 10th January, 2011 at 6:20 pm  

      From the thread Bored, etc linked to:

      Secular or right wing. When the girl has no objection to sleep, why should we cry over this. Girls, unless minors, are not so innocent. Who knows these girls might be the real culprits and seducing poor pakistani men. Hindu girls, especially NRIs, are not so innocent or immature. They no A-Z about sex and abortion. Stop blaming pakistani ppl for everything and start thinking about our character.

      I don’t know how to react to that. And this is in The Times of India?

      There has to be a new word for that. Xenoyouwishphobia or summat.

    78. douglas clark — on 10th January, 2011 at 6:22 pm  

      Bored, etc @76,

      Sorry. I should retitle myself as bored in corfu :-)

    79. observer — on 10th January, 2011 at 6:27 pm  

      Lies, damned lies,

      Quite clearly white English Christian men and women, are sexually depraved and prey on vulnerable children. I think Jack needs to make a statement into why white English Christian culture fosters this kind of grooming of children at nurseries :/

    80. douglas clark — on 10th January, 2011 at 6:36 pm  

      observer,

      I know you were taking the piss, but it is odd that no journalist seems to report white crime as white crime.

      “White Christian extremists” are rather thin on the ground in journalistic circles, don’t you think?

    81. damon — on 10th January, 2011 at 7:24 pm  

      Brownie

      Disagree with Straw if you want, but the ulterior motive stuff is just baseless smear, and a ‘smear’ that lacks any intellectual rgiour whatsoever.

      I have to agree with that. And this is it seems as far as this debate can go, as some people are not willing to reflect and move on from such a position about Straw’s motives.

      @69

      And the truth is here :)

      I looked at the link you gave, which was an article titled ”Daily Mail Lies: Are Asian gangs targeting white girls?” - which was very poor… unless I’m not understanding something blindingly obvious.
      This was the crux of it:

      Unfortunately for Sue (Reid in the Daily Mail), the numbers don’t quite back up her case. As she notes, 22 out of 27 of girls – 81 per cent to be precise – were white. Yet in Derby the population is 85 per cent white and just 9 per cent Asian. In other words, white girls were under-represented amongst the victims, and were, in fact, less likely to be targeted by the gang than non-whites.

      Surely that is just obfuscating and deliberately spinning. Although I see that Sunny has linked to the same very short article (not more than a statement really) on the front page of Liberal Conspiracy, in the ”Across the Blogs” links …. which I’m guessing means some kind of LC approval.

      On Straw and Labour. Surely falsely fingering the Pakistani (and wider muslim communities) for such cynical/criminal short-term gain makes no sense, as even if it won them the Oldham by-election, it could loose them (potentially) hundreds of thousands of muslim votes - and of people like myself who would be disgusted at such calculated deviousness in a political party.

    82. Jai — on 10th January, 2011 at 7:44 pm  

      First of all, Straw didn’t ‘racialise’ anything. He talked specficailly about a small minority of young ‘Pakistani’ men –…..he didn’t talk about Asians (because this is does not involve gangs of Chinese, Japanese and Cambodian men)

      First of all, in the United Kingdom, the term “Asian” in common parlance refers to people with ancestry specifically in South Asia. Usage of the term “Asian” to denote ancestry in China, Japan, Cambodia etc is common in the United States, but not Britain.

      However, it is also clear that, unlike Mr Straw, who repeatedly used the specific term “Pakistani” on this occasion, certain sections of the British media (especially the right-wing – the Daily Mail, as usual, is a prime example) are using the term “Asian” and “Pakistani” interchangeably, which obviously inappropriately extrapolates this whole problem to include men with Indian, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan and Nepali ancestry. Unfortunately, in this particular instance, usually left-wing sources such as the Independent have also made this error, as per the article linked to in #65. Let’s make this absolutely clear: This is a problem within some sections of some Pakistani populations in some parts of the country, rather than being an endemic issue amongst the entire Pakistani population everywhere in the UK and at all socio-economic levels.

      Readers with an interest in global history will presumably also already be aware of the specific 19th century historical origins of the “dark subcontinental men as dangerous potential rapists lusting after white females” fabricated stereotype, and the chain of events triggered by cynical groups deliberately pushing that narrative. Whilst I do not think Mr Straw himself is necessarily guilty of deliberately engaging in the same behaviour – at least not due to the same racist motivations, although he could certainly have chosen his words more carefully – certain right-wing groups involved in the media and politics respectively definitely are. They’re playing a very old game.

      To draw another analogy as per Rumbold’s example in the main article, it’s the equivalent of someone claiming there is a major problem in “White western culture” or amongst “Europeans or people with European ancestry” with regards to the disproportionate involvement of the latter in international “sex tourism” involving some parts of the Third World, which does of course also sometimes involve the exploitation of children too. It would be wrong to tar all white people with the same brush in this matter, and it is similarly wrong to engage in the same inappropriate (in some cases also opportunistic) extrapolation to malign the entire Pakistani population in Britain or indeed the entire British Asian population en masse.

      Finally, since the BNP have been triumphantly declaring on their website that the successful prosecution of this despicable gang “proves they were right all along” about the alleged threat posed to white girls by Muslim men, here’s a reminder of exactly why the BNP leadership and Griffin in particular have decided to eagerly exploit every opportunity they can get to target Muslims:

      Nick Griffin, speaking to an audience at a BNP meeting in Burnley in 2006, caught on video stating that he is publicly hiding his hostility towards Jews and is deliberately scapegoating Muslims en masse as a vehicle to achieve power:

      Video: http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=1269630805284168668

      Quote: “We bang on about Islam. Why? Because to the ordinary public out there it’s the thing they can understand. It’s the thing the newspaper editors sell newspapers with. If we were to attack some other ethnic group—some people say we should attack the Jews… But … we’ve got to get to power. And if that was an issue we chose to bang on about when the press don’t talk about it … the public would just think we were barking mad. They’d just think oh, you’re attacking Jews just because you want to attack Jews. You’re attacking this group of powerful Zionists just because you want to take poor Manny Cohen the tailor and shove him in a gas chamber. That’s what the public would think. It wouldn’t get us anywhere other than stepping backwards. It would lock us in a little box; the public would think “extremist crank lunatics, nothing to do with me.” And we wouldn’t get power.”

      The BNP’s real motivations for “claiming they were right all along” aren’t even remotely sincere or altruistic, as confirmed by Nick Griffin’s own incriminating remarks above.

    83. DavidMWW — on 10th January, 2011 at 8:05 pm  

      Thanks for fixing up my link for me, Bored. Not sure what went wrong there.

    84. Wibble — on 10th January, 2011 at 11:22 pm  

      Bored & DavidMWW:

      “Hardeep said that in 2007, The Hindu Forum of Britain claimed that hundreds of Hindu and Sikh girls had been first romantically coaxed and later intimidated and converted by Muslim men.”

      Is this even in the same ball-park as what happened to the girls who were victims of the grooming gang? Or maybe they’re just pissed off that some girls had relationships with Muslims?

    85. AbuF — on 11th January, 2011 at 6:09 am  

      “White Christian extremists” are rather thin on the ground in journalistic circles, don’t you think?

      Oh gawd - more paranoia.

      Perhaps because there are a very small number of the same?

      And that would be rather telling, given the number of (as contingently) Brown and Black Islamist extremists (for example).

    86. Shamit — on 11th January, 2011 at 11:19 am  

      A whole bunch of paedophiles were sentenced yesterday for the most heinous crimes against children - while many mentioned that one of them was a grandmother, one a teaching assistant and then the IT guy - not a single report talked about them being “white”.

      Not a single politician came out with pontification about how children faced a grave danger from white grandmothers and white teaching assistants. And rightly so.

      Heinous crimes are not a monopoly of any particular ethnic group and I think that is a fact of life. And adding racial tinge to debates on crime tend to have adverse impact upon community cohesion - however, some times aided by economic uncertainty these comments do play well at the ballot box.

      I do not think Mr. Straw is racist but I do think this was playing upon the fears of the electorate - and that is not expected from someone who has held some of the highest offices of state and neither is it acceptable.

      It is a societal problem and creating artificial boundaries that try to divide the electorate along racial/religion lines is simply not helpful and as Jai says plays right into the hands of the BNP.

      So no good would come out of this - more importantly, there was no need for this. Labour is leading by 17 points - what was he thinking?

    87. Bored in Kavanagasau — on 11th January, 2011 at 12:35 pm  

      Wibble

      Numerically feasible, given one the gangs involved was linked with up to 100 girls, but I am just as cynical as you are given the source of the allegations.

      Jai

      You often refer back to 19th century racist stereotypes. Had the ethnicities of the victims and attacker been switched around, I am sure you might have brought atrocities which occurred during the period of the Raj into the equation just as, prior to the Lozells riots, one self-proclaimed Black spokesmen said “when we were slaves we could not defend our women from rape”. How about considering a modern day example of prejudice where a prominent British Pakistani Muslim journalist refers to non-Muslims as “kuffar”, “cattle” and “a people of no intelligence”. If a privately-educated, Oxbridge graduate refers to non-Muslims in this gutter fashion, and is defended vociferously by this blog for doing so, you have to consider, by extension, what the members of the criminal, often poorly educated, section of the British Pakistani community feel towards other groups. Mehdi Hasan, appearing on the Big Questions, asked why girls were out on the street, putting the onus on them to fend off paedo gangs, instead of using this as opportunity to challenge racist attitudes towards white people from the Asian community (and he would be fair to extend this from Pakistani to other Asian groups), just as the murder of Stephen Lawrence was used to debate racism in wider society (and those that did weren’t accusing all white people of being racist murderers). But, thanks to the work of HP, we know a little more about why he wouldn’t do this. Emma Jackson, a grooming victim who was on the show, replied that these groups actually seek out young girls at places where young people naturally go: ice-rinks, cinemeas etc and replied, “why shouldn’t young people be allowed to go out on their own”. If PP thinks debating racism is generally an unhealthy thing, why comment on blackfacing in comedy or castigate Jade Goody for saying Paki Bitch on TV, trivial offences when compared to drugging, raping and pimping out young girls by gangs.

    88. damon — on 11th January, 2011 at 1:44 pm  

      Thanks for pointing out The Big Questions Bored in Kavanagasau - I just watched it.
      And there was the debate in all it’s polarised glory.

      Lee Jasper, Ann Cryer, Mehdi Hasan and the woman who had been a victim of this several years ago when she was a young teenager.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00xhgkl

      I guess what you do is just take your sides … as talking about it just goes around and around in circles with people not willing to budge from their strongly held gut feelings.
      I think that the idea that Jack Straw did this with a view to pushing up Labour’s vote in Oldham is ridiculous, but people will believe what they want to believe.

      Personally, I thought Lee Jasper was poor, (as he so often is), and I was shocked by Mehdi Hasan’s comments about why were parents letting their 12 and 13 year old girls go out on their own, (to places like the cinema and the skating rink).

      But I guess it’s time to kick this discussion into the long grass .. without it really getting resolved.

      Btw, talking about the BNP is a red herring in my opinion.

    89. Jai — on 11th January, 2011 at 3:33 pm  

      You often refer back to 19th century racist stereotypes. Had the ethnicities of the victims and attacker been switched around, I am sure you might have brought atrocities which occurred during the period of the Raj into the equation

      Highly unlikely, because my point was that there is an extremely long history of white British racists deliberately stereotyping Asian men as potential rapists of white females and subsequently using this strawman allegation to justify their own cynical, opportunistic actions. Neither the stereotypes nor the subsequent behaviour patterns died out in the 19th century — and during formal investigations by independent British commissions, the alleged atrocities which these particular stereotypes were based on were later proven to be complete fabrications, incidentally.

      The rest of #88 is irrelevant obfuscation and an attempt to conflate a wide range of disparate issues. My fundamental point in #82 is that it is both immoral and irrational to speculatively ascribe nefarious motivations to entire ethnic and/or religious groups based purely on conjecture and stereotypes, especially when it comes to severe criminal offences perpetrated by a small minority of people who happen to be from those groups, irrespective of whether the groups one is speculating about are white or non-white.

      Most of all, the attempted hijacking of this issue by certain individuals & groups in order to take tangential pot-shots at Pakistanis en masse or Asians en masse (or, theoretically, white people en masse, if the scenario was reversed) is debased opportunism and a truly abhorrent example of twisted people trying to exploit the suffering of this depraved gang’s victims in order to push their own bigoted agendas.

      My previous points still stand, as do the excellent observations made by both Rumbold and later Platinum786 in the main article above. Superb post #86 by Shamit too — I completely agree with his remarks.

    90. Refresh — on 11th January, 2011 at 3:59 pm  

      Jai,

      Well said. It reminded me of ‘A Passage to India’.

      Bored, Damon,

      I watched The Big Questions and its clear the contributors handled it all pretty well esp. Mehdi Hasan, Lee Jasper and the guy from the Ramadhan Foundation. Even Kelvin Mackenzie wasn’t as rabid as I’ve come to expect.

      Cryer was very weak and patronising in her analysis, which may explain her failure to engage with a section of her constituency. But in her defence she did her best to draw some distance from Jack Straw:

      Jack Straw had used the term ‘easy meat’. This is abhorrent and insulting to everyone including the girls. This term is only a slight variation on the overtly racist term that was in use in the late 70s and 80s - girls in relationships with asians were termed ‘paki-meat’. Some may also recall the parallel term for girls associating with men of afro-caribbean heritage - ‘n***** lovers’.

      Jack Straw is of the age to know all this. He was using Phil Woolas’ trick, and it was aimed at the Oldham by-election. Anne Cryer was very clearly trying to dissocciate herself from it. Go watch it again.

      Also, you will know Mehdi Hasan was not referring to ice rinks, cinemas etc but alluding to the societies lack of care.

    91. Citizen Singh — on 11th January, 2011 at 4:01 pm  

      on the topic of the Big Questions, what was the Sikh guy’s contribution all about? He rambled for a bit and was (mercifully) cut-off by Nicky Campbell.

    92. Danyal — on 11th January, 2011 at 4:08 pm  

      Damon

      I think that the idea that Jack Straw did this with a view to pushing up Labour’s vote in Oldham is ridiculous, but people will believe what they want to believe.”

      So perhaps you can tell us why he said it then, Einstein

    93. Jai — on 11th January, 2011 at 4:43 pm  

      what was the Sikh guy’s contribution all about?

      He was basically saying that communication between family members is very important, and — using his own immediate family as an analogy — these days times have changed for there to ideally be less barriers to effective communication than there used to be.

      His general point was that in these kinds of situations, girls should be able to openly discuss matters with their parents and other immediate family members, especially if they’re out of their depth.

    94. Bored in Kavanagasau — on 11th January, 2011 at 5:28 pm  

      Another case:

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1346066/Gang-Asian-men-arrested-grooming-white-teenage-girls-sex.html

      Jack Straw’s quotes :

      Straw said: “Pakistanis are not the only people who commit sexual offences and overwhelmingly sex offenders’ wings are full of white offenders.”But there is a specific problem which involves Pakistani heritage men who target vulnerable young white girls.
      “We need to get the Pakistani community to think much more clearly about why this is going on and to be more open about the problems that are leading to a number of Pakistani heritage men thinking it is OK to target white girls in this way.”

      My fundamental point in #82 is that it is both immoral and irrational to speculatively ascribe nefarious motivations to entire ethnic and/or religious groups based purely on conjecture and stereotypes, especially when it comes to severe criminal offences perpetrated by a small minority of people who happen to be from those groups, irrespective of whether the groups one is speculating about are white or non-white.

      If Jack Straw had said it when no prosecutions had been made, then your accusation may have some basis. How many cases, and one case involved up to 100 girls, involving attacks from primarily Asian grooming gangs would need to go through the courts before Jack Straw could say there was a problem amongst a section of the British Asian community: 50, 100, 1000, 10000?

      Incidentally, Jack Straw’s comments are based around actual cases which have gone through the courts with guilty verdicts found, not rumours or fabrications. With two mentions so far of historical cases where Asian males attacking white women have been fabrications, and the assertion that Jack Straw’s comment were based on stereotypes and not the Times investigation, there is a snidely implicit suggestion that these cases could be like a modern-day Scottsboro. Surely the worst way to treat the victims is to intimate that the crime never happened by linking it with fabrications (here, Lib Con and other blogs) from the past. Historical references have a limited usage: should we invoke the existence of the Barbary corsairs, to describe primarily Muslim gangs making pirate-like paedo raids in white areas, attacking white, British children from working-class families. Or perhaps the writings of W.T Stead and the painting of the Minotaur by G.F. Watts? In the case of the Barbary corsairs, that would be silly and wrong wouldn’t it?

      Also, why make a point about splitting British Pakistanis from the rest of British Asian community in this case if you thought culture didn’t matter? There was, after all, one non-Muslim Asian in one of the gangs. Doing so makes this look like a problem a section of the British Pakistani community have to deal: exactly what Jack Straw said. What determines the switching betweeen different labels? Are Amir Khan and Ajaml Shazad British Asians but grooming gangs are disproportionately British Pakistani? Bit harsh.

    95. damon — on 11th January, 2011 at 6:46 pm  

      I have said early on (on LC I think) that I thought that Jack Straw using the term ”easy meat” was the wrong thing to say, as it’s something that is alarmist and can be used nefariously by those people who would like to cause tensions amongst communities.

      However, I said Lee Jasper was poor, because he makes the direct gross allegation that Straw said this deliberately to tip the Labour party more towards a BNP line and help them get votes in the Oldham by-election, which IMO is verging on 9/11 conspiracy type paranoia.

      Because of the shootings in Arizona, both yesterday and today, I have tuned in to WABC radio in New York at 5pm to listen to a bit of the Rush Limbaugh programme. (Not something I do very often).
      I’ve just been listening to a bit of it now, and what Lee Jasper said about Straw, and others have said to back that claim up (about Straw doing this knowingly and maliciously) sounds about as raving as Limbaugh is being over the supposid ”Liberal” reaction to the shootings in Arizona.

      According to Limbaugh, ”The Liberals” were pinning this on Republicans and the Tea Party before the bodies of the dead were even cold. And blah blah blah, he hasn’t stopped in this manner. So I’ve switched it off. Sean Hannity was the same last night at 8pm.

      If people really think that Straw is so sickeningly conniving to have done that (he either is or isn’t) then what on earth is that other thread about ”The Labour Party and the Netroots” about?
      How could anyone have anything to do with the disgusting Labour party, if they would poison race relations for the sake of a few votes?
      ”Join the Labour Party” they urge you? The only decent reply would be to tell them to f*** off.

      The truth is, that we all really know that that wasn’t the case with Straw, and it was actually Lee Jasper and people who say what he said, who are blowing a stupid dog whistle. One which brings anti-racism into disrepute.

      Straw’s words could have been better, and maybe he shouldn’t have said anything at all, but ”doing a Rush Limbaugh” is never the answer to difficult issues like this.

      Though to be fair, Lee Jasper’s final comments on the programme were fine and good.

    96. Refresh — on 11th January, 2011 at 7:21 pm  

      Damon,

      Lets keep the conversation sane shall we. If anything Straw would fall into the Sarah Palin category in your latest perspective.

      Yes I do believe he is capable of doing a Woolas -therein is the clue.

      And as far as netroots is concerned, might it not explain the problem New Labour faces when it comes to looking to be the opposition in Parliament as well as the country and on the street?

    97. Citizen Singh — on 11th January, 2011 at 9:54 pm  

      Jai, thanks for explaining. I should have paid more attention.

    98. Brownie — on 12th January, 2011 at 1:39 am  

      A whole bunch of paedophiles were sentenced yesterday for the most heinous crimes against children – while many mentioned that one of them was a grandmother, one a teaching assistant and then the IT guy – not a single report talked about them being “white”.

      Were they all? Do you know that? I don’t. Did the Times invesitgation talk about all the perpetraors in the grooming cases being “Brown”? Why, no it didn’t. Presumably because the skin tone is entirely irrelevant.

      What is not irrelevant is that a random investigation into cases of a specific sex crime show a huge criminal bias towards a specific ethnic minority. Some of you need a crash course in statistics if you think casual references to the first sex crime you can think of passes muster as refutation.

      Have any of you ever heard of ‘Operation Trident’?

      Jack Straw had used the term ‘easy meat’. This is abhorrent and insulting to everyone including the girls.

      Totally unlike:

      “Offenders are under the misapprehension white girls are easy prey. The way they dress, their culture, makes them easy pickings

      as offered up by that well-known Labour apparatchik and closet racsit Manzoor Moghul, chairman of the Muslim Forum. Or something.

    99. Brownie — on 12th January, 2011 at 1:41 am  

      And as far as netroots is concerned, might it not explain the problem New Labour faces when it comes to looking to be the opposition in Parliament as well as the country and on the street?

      Seen the latest opinion polls, have you?

    100. Refresh — on 12th January, 2011 at 1:43 am  

      ‘Seen the latest opinion polls, have you?’

      Yes I have. Another round of holding your nose I should think.

    101. Eurasian Sensation — on 12th January, 2011 at 2:21 am  

      If a ethnic Pakistani MP had said the same thing as Straw, would it still be scaremongering?

      Because this touches on an issue that festers amongst Asian and Muslim migrants. White girls are too often seen as less moral than “our” girls. Some men take this to mean they are fair game.

      It’s not to say that Asian sex crime is any worse than white sex crime. But to say that this is not reflective of some abhorrent attitudes in the Asian community is foolishness.

      In Sydney a few years back, two unrelated groups of young men (one Lebanese, one Pakistani) waged campaigns of sexual assault and gang rape against teenage white girls. The Lebanese gang was explicit about the “Aussie sluts” deserving it. Their leader even had a Lebanese fiance.

      Let’s face it: there are way too many migrants, particularly Asian and/or Muslim, who live amongst white people but view whites and white culture as beneath them. This case is but one consequence.

    102. Ravi Naik — on 12th January, 2011 at 9:11 am  

      Let’s face it: there are way too many migrants, particularly Asian and/or Muslim, who live amongst white people but view whites and white culture as beneath them. This case is but one consequence.

      Your comment, in my view, is superficial. This case is about rape, and unless you believe that Asian and Muslims condone this sort of thing due to perceived cultural superiority, then you are way off.

    103. Hermes — on 12th January, 2011 at 10:17 am  

      Ravi,

      I agree. The Pakistani guys who do this are not on some high cultural crusade…they are mostly idiotic, uneducated thugs. They are totally sex-starved little shits whose cravings for white girls lead to these crimes. Therein lies another form of racism - an inverted sense of inferiority which is masked by acting in this way.

    104. douglas clark — on 12th January, 2011 at 11:22 am  

      AbuF @ 85,

      Oh gawd – more paranoia.

      Perhaps because there are a very small number of the same?

      And that would be rather telling, given the number of (as contingently) Brown and Black Islamist extremists (for example).

      The article is specifically about ‘grooming’ and the sexual exploitation of underage women. The actual numbers of cases that cover that subject area are fairly small, but it surprising that the Cornish case is reported without any race ephitet whatsoever. Just to be clear, anyone who does this sort of thing should be locked up and the key chucked away. That’s how you send a message to criminals. There is, obviously, no ‘cultural’ excuse for it.

    105. damon — on 12th January, 2011 at 11:36 am  

      Refresh

      Lets keep the conversation sane shall we. If anything Straw would fall into the Sarah Palin category in your latest perspective.

      Yes I do believe he is capable of doing a Woolas -therein is the clue.

      Because of Woolas, does that mean he set a standard of how low a Labour politician can go and that others are likely to be just as bad? That is the implication, and it’s a pretty good example, as that leaflet his campaign put out for the general election was terrible.

      There is no real defence of it - it stank … but (just a small ‘but’) MPACUK were were working on the ground in Oldham before the election in their ‘Operation Muslim Vote’ campaign … and you know the kinds of things they are liable to say.
      http://www.mpacuk.org/vote/operation-muslim-vote-comes-oldham.html

      That doesn’t excuse the Woolas leaflet, but I cannot see the need for straw to jump back into this racist kind of smearing of a community, when Labour are said to be looking comfortable anyway. And even if the election was that close, you reallly would have to have the mind of a total malicious racist to think that a few votes was worth trying to split communities on race and religion lines.

      It does seem there is a huge difference in the care that people are expected to take when possibly maligning a whole community (which he actually went out of his way to say he wasn’t doing), and peole making quick accusations that someone is a total racist bigot - which is an accusation that comes very freely to some people. Like what Lee Jasper said about Straw. I even regularly have people saying it about me.

      I understand that throwing dirt at a community is obviously more serious and has graver potential consequences than making false accusations about an individual, but I think both should be avoided.

      Ravi, while I wouldn’t have put it quite like Eurasian Sensation, (and whold have probably written a whole lot more …. which I see he has on his own blog) yes it is about rape and the criminality of individuals, but other factors have been brought into this and are part of the wider discussion.
      Someone in the Spectator said that it was one sign of a failure of multi-culturalism … which broadens out the argument even further.
      http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/6598748/sex-gangs-and-the-triumph-of-ignorance.thtml

      Eurasian Sensation. I read your website with interest.
      That’s a whole can of worms. Interesting, but where to start? :)

    106. Jai — on 12th January, 2011 at 1:14 pm  

      Also, why make a point about splitting British Pakistanis from the rest of British Asian community in this case if you thought culture didn’t matter? There was, after all, one non-Muslim Asian in one of the gangs. Doing so makes this look like a problem a section of the British Pakistani community have to deal: exactly what Jack Straw said. What determines the switching betweeen different labels? Are Amir Khan and Ajaml Shazad British Asians but grooming gangs are disproportionately British Pakistani? Bit harsh.

      If one is going to play this particular game and drag British Asians from other backgrounds into the mess, the same logic can be extrapolated, as follows: The members of the gang were British citizens. Therefore, why make the distinction of referring to them as “British Pakistanis” or even “British Asians” ? These criminals are part of British society and, therefore, this is a problem within British culture as a whole. Unless, of course, one believes that — taking a hypothetical example — a non-white member of the Olympics team representing the UK is “British” if they win a medal, but a non-white British citizen is [insert ancestral nationality here] if they are guilty of criminal offences.

      As per #87, the rest of #94 is irrelevant obfuscation and disingenuous gameplaying.

      As Platinum786 correctly said:

      Straw mentioning race wasn’t helpful as he did it in a generic manner, Pakistani men don’t see white women as easy meat, British Pakistani sex offenders do, but if he had said British Pakistani sex offenders see white women as easy meat, it wouldn’t have been such a great headline, for the below reasons;

      – The word British would have been used, giving these guys a British identity and background, which they do have, meaning they’re part of our society, not outsiders raping our women.

      And as I said in #89, although the following doesn’t necessarily apply to Mr Straw himself, people opportunistically exploiting the horrific experiences of the young girls involved in this tragedy in order to try to score cheap racist points against British people of Pakistani background or indeed British people of Asian ethnicity en masse are playing a very dirty game indeed.

    107. tic — on 12th January, 2011 at 2:06 pm  

      Eurasian sensation

      Let’s face it: there are way too many migrants, particularly Asian and/or Muslim, who live amongst white people but view whites and white culture as beneath them. This case is but one consequence.

      Not everyone can be as tolerant and respectful of others cultures and willing to adapt to them as white Europeans abroad are and have always been.

    108. damon — on 12th January, 2011 at 2:53 pm  

      They spoke about this on raido 4′s Wonan’s Hour this morning.
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00d7f3f

      What’s the best way to tackle this appalling crime without stereotyping and dividing communities? Ann Cryer, the former MP for Keighley, and Yusuf Tai from Forward Thinking discuss.

      Also, Harry’s Place for anyone who cares to see what their view of this was.
      http://hurryupharry.org/2011/01/11/asian-gangs-and-white-girls/

      I think the HP piece isn’t bad, but I know that some people (earwicga for example) will have a problem with this following line in it, because it’s not backed up by the all important stats. It’s an opinion - given from experience perhaps, but for the people who go by the stats and convictions alone, then this is meaningless, and even perhaps suspect - in the way that Straw is now suspect.

      So what the hell is going on? I know from personal experience that this does happen and the scale of the problem is much larger than the above statistics would have you believe. I have seen this taking place in the Midlands and heard young men talking about it.

      And refresh, if you think I’m being a little less than sane again, LC linked to a short article (as a blog of the day) which said: ”22 out of 27 of girls – 81 per cent to be precise – were white. Yet in Derby the population is 85 per cent white and just 9 per cent Asian. In other words, white girls were under-represented amongst the victims, and were, in fact, less likely to be targeted by the gang than non-whites.”
      Which to me is just playing with statistics and spinning. Which is the only some people will play this.
      ”Show me the stats, or your argument is meaningless” they say.

      This again is from that Harry’s Place OP, and because it is not based on statistics, again could just be dismissed as anecdotal (but surely a British website that is supposed to have a South Asian aspect can surely engage with opinions like this, even if just to disagree with it).

      I don’t think this has much to do with faith in a direct way nor should it be discussed as a ‘Muslim’ issue. But it has everything to do with a British Pakistani sub-culture that has developed in many decaying northern towns and cities in this country. In these places, certain young Asian men are disconnected from mainstream society; they develop their own lingo, their own traditions and sub-culture. This sub-culture is often an amalgamation of rural Punjabi values and US hip-hop culture. This sub-culture, in turn, has a deviant offshoot, a sub-culture of a sub-culture if you like, that is anti-establishment, rebellious, crime-prone and deeply ignorant. Petty crime, racism, sexism and homophobia are standard.

      If that seems unfair, what’s the reason for such a large muslim prison population?
      It’s 12% in England and Wales I believe.
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8558590.stm

    109. AbuF — on 12th January, 2011 at 3:18 pm  

      ‘They are totally sex-starved little shits whose cravings for white girls lead to these crimes.’

      So… erm… break away from a ridiculous culture that deprives one of sex???

      Douglas

      Yes - if only they were Cornish Nats, eh and beyond such things. hic.

      Loon.

    110. AbuF — on 12th January, 2011 at 3:20 pm  

      “I think the HP piece isn’t bad, but I know that some people (earwicga for example)…”

      Oh, certainly - and as a matter of putative *principle*.

    111. earwicga — on 12th January, 2011 at 3:49 pm  

      Damon, I had already seen it as Unity linked to it in his post - Asian Gangs and Out-group Prejudice

      I agree with Lenin on this. when he writes ‘the ethnicity of the men involved is meaningless’. I think rapists rape because of good ole mysogyny. Ibn Khaldun’s suggestions to ‘combat this behaviour’ are pointless unless they include the radical notion that women are human beings.

    112. douglas clark — on 12th January, 2011 at 4:06 pm  

      Abu F,

      Is organised prostitution in the UK exclusively run by muslims from the midlands? How do you think other women are lured into it? Do you think the rest of the country is inhabited by Belle de Jour types?

      Loon?

      Don’t think so. I think it is you that wants it to be so, for whatever reasons you may have.

      Idiot.

    113. damon — on 12th January, 2011 at 5:19 pm  

      Earwicga, thanks for that link to Unity’s website.
      That was a top bit of analysis.
      You prefered the one by Lenin? That’s a pity.

      So far I think there is a clear division. Unity in the post you just linked to, and Claude’s piece on his Hagley Road website linked to in post number 9.
      Those on one side, and I very much am inclined to broadly agree with them (as much as I’m able to keep up with the discussion) ….. and on the other side is Lee Jasper and those who made the knee-jerk (but flawed IMO) allegation that Straw was deliberately throwing racist muck in the hope of winning some votes in Oldham, which many people will insist on believing.
      And also the poor article in Cif by Libby Brooks, and the other poor post on Liberal Conspiracy titled ”Why are all Pakistani men are being smeared in the sex-grooming cases?”

      I said that perhaps Straw should have known to say nothing, as there were plenty of people who would willingly misconstrue his intentions and what he was trying to convey.

      And surely if Straw had meant to try to win extra white racist votes in Oldham, if it was that obvious, then they’d lose as many Labour votes from people who were disgusted by such odious politicking.

    114. earwicga — on 12th January, 2011 at 5:31 pm  

      damon - I didn’t say I prefered Lenin’s post to Unity’s post. They are completely different. Lenin’s post is directly related to conflating race and rape. Unity’s post was about how people can be made to act outside of society. But, rape isn’t outside of society - it is an epidemic in all types of society.

      I also thought that Iman Qureshi’s post on LC was excellent, this is important:

      The fact that only five out of a random sample of 269 Crown Court cases (certainly more thorough and extensive than the 17 examined by The Times) of grooming involved Asian men* is also conveniently ignored.

      Regarding Straw, I don’t care. He is a vile individual. If you trust his motives as being in the interests of his constituents, then that is up to you. I don’t.

    115. Sarah AB — on 12th January, 2011 at 8:07 pm  

      earwicga - I certainly had some sympathy for Qureshi, but thought some parts of the post needed to be explained further, as noted by Quiet Riot Girl in the comments - this final paragraph in particular.

      “This is a far broader problem better addressed by correcting the social welfare system, the legal system, the sexualisation of children and the lens through which we view teenage girls – and of course more responsible and informed discussions on these issues.”

    116. asim — on 12th January, 2011 at 8:25 pm  

      damon

      the knee-jerk (but flawed IMO) allegation that Straw was deliberately throwing racist muck in the hope of winning some votes in Oldham, which many people will insist on believing.

      Yeah how naive to think that a politician would make populist statements to win more votes.Politicians never want to win votes or say things that they think will win them votes.

      And surely if Straw had meant to try to win extra white racist votes in Oldham, if it was that obvious, then they’d lose as many Labour votes from people who were disgusted by such odious politicking.

      The point is political calculation would be that there would be MORE votes to be gained from such statements and that many Asians would stick with Labour as they wouldnt have anywhere else to go (they are hardly going to vote BNP). This is the danger when extremist parties gain traction; not that they can gain power but that their policies are adopted by the mainstream parties. Any idiot can see that.

    117. Bored in Kavanagasau — on 12th January, 2011 at 8:48 pm  

      Shamit on race attacks in Australia


      “The racist attacks on foreigners ie those with a different skin colour or religion sadly is becoming more and more frequent in parts of Australia. And the victims have been Jews, Chinese, Indians and the list goes on. Go back a few years and you can see a trend steadily growing.

      In the recent attacks, while the Aussie Government wants to play down the race issue, it is clearly an issue based on eye witnesses. And, the police trying to imply these are not racist attacks along with my own experiences somehow makes me think that there are institutional problems which the Aussie Government has failed to address for a long time. My experiences are about a decade old now.”

      Shamit on grooming cases:

      Heinous crimes are not a monopoly of any particular ethnic group and I think that is a fact of life. And adding racial tinge to debates on crime tend to have adverse impact upon community cohesion – however, some times aided by economic uncertainty these comments do play well at the ballot box.

      Dear oh dear.

    118. Shamit — on 12th January, 2011 at 9:30 pm  

      Selective quoting and putting material without context is a good attempt to play high school politics - but I do not see the contradiction between the two statements.

      There was targeted crimes against Asians (in the British sense) in Australia where many died and the nature of the crime was racial - and which the Australian Government finally admitted.

      Trying to conflate the Australian incidents and the grooming sexual exploitation cases are like comparing apples with oranges.

      If you want to find inconsistencies and exploit them - try and be a bit more clever.

      And once again could you point out the inconsistencies here?

    119. Eurasian Sensation — on 12th January, 2011 at 10:15 pm  

      @ Ravi Naik:

      “This case is about rape, and unless you believe that Asian and Muslims condone this sort of thing due to perceived cultural superiority, then you are way off.”

      I don’t think for a moment that this sort of behaviour is condoned by Asians or Muslims. What I mean is this:

      Pakistani culture, and more broadly Middle Eastern and South Asian culture, is obsessed with regulating female sexuality. Women who step outside its narrowly-defined behavioural boundaries are viewed with great distaste and traditionally have severe social sanctions on them.

      Then take those cultural attitudes and place them amongst a mainstream British culture which is extremely open and permissive about sex.

      People who offend against women (and they exist in every ethnic group) are more likely to have views that the woman deserves it somehow, and that the offender is somehow entitled to do it. You can see that in mainstream white culture as well, the way that a woman seen as “a slut” is often blamed for being raped.

      If Asian men are continually fed the message that white women are less moral and thus less valuable - it’s a recipe for the kind of attitudes that support rape. Of course that doesn’t turn men into rapists. But it encourages the kind of mindset that excuses it.

    120. Danyal — on 12th January, 2011 at 11:16 pm  

      Abu F
      ““I think the HP piece isn’t bad, but I know that some people (earwicga for example)…”

      Oh, certainly – and as a matter of putative *principle*.”

      Says someone who posts on here while his website (Spittoon) continually slags off this site! Hypocrite.

    121. douglas clark — on 12th January, 2011 at 11:21 pm  

      Shamit,

      Well, what are you referring to? You say:

      There was targeted crimes against Asians (in the British sense) in Australia where many died and the nature of the crime was racial – and which the Australian Government finally admitted.

      Trying to conflate the Australian incidents and the grooming sexual exploitation cases are like comparing apples with oranges.

      Could you provide us with some details? Are you talking about their disgusting policy of refusing entry to asylum seekers?

      I have no idea what you mean about ‘in the British sense’ in relation to that.

      I’m not sure it is conflating apples and oranges exactly. Both have fairly exclusionary principles built into their mind set. In the Australian case, a fear of people looking for a better life. And pretending that that was an overwhelming moral justification for treating people like shit. Or in the grooming case, a desire to exploit people because they weren’t of a specific ethnic origin.

      I’d be some sort of idiot to see that as a choice.

      Don’t you think?

      I think both cases are about pretendy differences and are being used to support a whole deck of cards that we ought to agree, should be pulled down at the earliest possible opportunity.

    122. douglas clark — on 12th January, 2011 at 11:35 pm  

      Eurasian Sensation,

      I think you have a point when you said this:

      If Asian men are continually fed the message that white women are less moral and thus less valuable – it’s a recipe for the kind of attitudes that support rape. Of course that doesn’t turn men into rapists. But it encourages the kind of mindset that excuses it.

      But, what’s to be done about it? Do you think a debate about comparative morality is going to cut it? How do you get Asian men to grow the fuck up? Not all, not most, but the minority that do think like that. After all, there are lots of non Asian men that think exactly the same.

      It seems to me that most men are completely incapable of recognising that the freedom of women to have sex does not equate to commitment. That idea was bombed out in the 1960′s.

      As far as I can tell, Asian women use birth control too.

      It is my idea, correct me if I am wrong, that Asian men and Asian women are walking two divergent paths into this new century. One is liberated and brainy, the other is poor and controlling.

      You decide which side has a better grip on 2011 than the other?

    123. KJB — on 13th January, 2011 at 12:17 am  

      In response to Brownie:

      I thought that by ‘easy access’, Platinum simply meant that there were more of them. White people are the majority in this country, and up north where it’s less diverse than in the capital, even in areas where a particular minority is heavily concentrated (say Asians), I would still expect them to be the second biggest racial group… And he is spot on about general misogyny. If you think men like that treat ‘their’ women better, then you are stunningly naive.

      I have to just repost comments 5cc made on the LC piece mentioned above:

      The statistics the Times story are from an as yet unpublished study by the Jill Dando Institute, so it’s impossible to say for sure exactly what they mean.

      According to the update at the bottom of the Ben Goldacre post ‘If You Don’t Link To Primary Sources You Are Dead To Me’ (can’t get the damn link to copy properly on my damn iPhone), the Jill Dando Institute leaked the study to the times, and feel these stats have been taken out of context.

      And, according to the last comment on that Goldacre post (google the title, you’ll find it):

      “They [the Times] said that there was no evidence for racial targeting, and in fact minority women were a higher proportion of victims than in the area’s population as a whole.”

    124. douglas clark — on 13th January, 2011 at 12:44 am  

      I am moderately persuaded that some Northern Engish idiots did this. It is to the point that they are Northerners and consequently can’t help being ‘a bit daft’.

      it is certainly not the case that they should be allowed to wrap themselves up in their Geordie accent and claim innocence on the basis of just being Northeners. That would be wrong, but, obviously, understandable.

      I rest my case….

    125. asim — on 13th January, 2011 at 12:44 am  

      douglas clark

      Eurasian Sensation,

      I think you have a point when you said this:

      If Asian men are continually fed the message that white women are less moral and thus less valuable – it’s a recipe for the kind of attitudes that support rape. Of course that doesn’t turn men into rapists. But it encourages the kind of mindset that excuses it.

      But, what’s to be done about it? Do you think a debate about comparative morality is going to cut it? How do you get Asian men to grow the fuck up? Not all, not most, but the minority that do think like that. After all, there are lots of non Asian men that think exactly the same.

      And of course no non-Asians/Muslims have a stereotypical view of Asian/Muslim women at all , do they? How do we get non-Asian/Muslim men to grow the fuck up ?

      You, after rightly complaining about stereotypes of white women, then go on to stereotype all Asian men:

      It is my idea, correct me if I am wrong, that Asian men and Asian women are walking two divergent paths into this new century. One is liberated and brainy, the other is poor and controlling.

      You decide which side has a better grip on 2011 than the other?

    126. douglas clark — on 13th January, 2011 at 1:06 am  

      asim,

      Err..

      You, after rightly complaining about stereotypes of white women, then go on to stereotype all Asian men

      No I didn’t. I was rather careful to say that only some Asian men are arseholes. And my point was to de-stereotype Asian women from tits like you.

      __________________________

      I stand by that:

      It is my idea, correct me if I am wrong, that Asian men and Asian women are walking two divergent paths into this new century. One is liberated and brainy, the other is poor and controlling.

      You decide which side has a better grip on 2011 than the other?

      It is up to you to answer that rather than see it as an insult. After all, a lot of your compatriots run away from intelligent Asian Women. Run ‘home’ even.

      What the heck are they doing there asim? Are they being pathetic little fools or men than are unable to capture a chick?

      Lacking any sort of communal undestanding about what English Pakistani women want? So you can run away?

      _______________________

      Do tell you freak!

      Or are you just be bit of a wee moaney bastard on a web site, you complete utter tit?

      What are your chances of chatting up a graduate pakistani woman? Or would you rather get mummy and daddy to find you a screw? From back home?

      Frankly that is what is cheap about your entire fucking male culture and beliefs.

      So fuck you asim! You are a stinkly wee shitebag.

    127. damon — on 13th January, 2011 at 2:11 am  

      Pakistani culture, and more broadly Middle Eastern and South Asian culture, is obsessed with regulating female sexuality. Women who step outside its narrowly-defined behavioural boundaries are viewed with great distaste and traditionally have severe social sanctions on them.

      Then take those cultural attitudes and place them amongst a mainstream British culture which is extremely open and permissive about sex.

      Eurasian Sensation, that is the kind of talk that doesn’t go down well on Pickled Politics.

      I know because I said things like that myself over a year ago, and they get ignored or panned.

      It’s like if you talk of your impressions of being an obvious western forigner visiting some Middle Eastern or Asian countries and you say anything negative.
      Or the things you see, like women on beaches being gawped at for wearing bikinis like I saw in Dubai a year ago. It was poor exploited Sub-Continent labourers on a friday (which is their only day off from their slave work on building sites), and a Filipino lifeguard was blowing his whistle and trying to shoo away these large groups of men who were going up to the few women in bathing suits and just staring at them and taking pictures on their phones.

      Most of the women on the beach were well covered up, but it was just the few that weren’t that were getting this attention.
      It was funny, but a bit tragic too.
      The lifeguard told me it was the same every friday.

    128. Refresh — on 13th January, 2011 at 4:19 am  

      Danyal,

      Don’t be ridiculous. If you have something to contribute then we’re all ears. Otherwise stop making comments based on ignorance.

    129. joanne — on 13th January, 2011 at 5:33 am  

      @Damon,

      In some cultures overt staring is much more common than in others.

      You are actually, inadvertantly, placing the blame on women for men’s misdemeanours by suggesting that the answer lies in greater public exposure of the female form.

      The problem, in my opinion, lies in the fact of the countries, from which these labourers hail, having little in the way of laws against street harassment.

    130. douglas clark — on 13th January, 2011 at 8:46 am  

      Refresh,

      Cheers.

      Asim @ 125,

      I don’t think most pakistani men are racist shits. I think the people that express themselves here, largely, are:

      http://tinyurl.com/5wvraov

      I spent a lot of time reading that thread, and the degree of sexist, racist shite was unbelievable. The racism that these people casually express is hundreds of times worse than any Scotland / England rivalry. It is frankly disgusting and, within the parameters of the commentators belief systems, acceptable to them. They are no better than the BNP.

      Well, it ain’t acceptable to me.

      So the likes of you either have a lot of growing up to do or a huge explanation to give us all about your intrinsic racism and weak masculinity. Go on, tell us all in terms justified racism or justified male dominance?

      I welcome your reply.

      Seems to me that muslim english men and muslim english women are walking different paths. Want to discuss that?

      Thought not.

    131. Bored in Kavanagasau — on 13th January, 2011 at 9:44 am  

      Shamit

      The two cases selected see you take completely different approaches to the issue of race. If you remember the coverage by the Indian media, there was plenty of on-the-fly accusations of racism levelled at Australia when an Indian student was attacked or murdered. In some cases it later transpired they were killed by other Indians or, in the amusing case of an insurance scam gone wrong, the Indian student who set fire to his own car with him unfortunately inside it, reported as a fire-bombing. A much smaller threshold of evidence was passed for people, including you, to make accusations of racism compared to the grooming cases where it seems like many on the liberal-left has decided to adopt the analytic eye of a (bad) research scientist, complaining that cases spread over ~10 years in a region are not enough to make a judgement. If your argument is that heated debates over race can destabilise community cohesion, then why wasn’t it applied in both cases. Sections of the Australian press tried to do the same thing, effectively saying that heinous crimes occur in all countries and actually the murder rate was significantly higher in India. The Indian press focused on a subset of these crimes, attacks on Indian students in Australia, to make accusations of racism which you supported. One argument could be in that ratcheting up the rhetoric by the Indian press, crying racism in some cases where an Indian was killed by another Indian in a slight overshoot, pushed the Australian government to act on increasing safety of Indian students: why not apply the same tactic here where many cases of child grooming are involved? If you are happy bring race into the equation in cases where Asians are victims but, when Asians are the assailants or white people are the victims of crimes by ethnic minorities, plea for a softening of the debate on race in order to preserve community cohesion, then the two examples highlighted are consistent with this reasoning.

      As for the admission by the Australian government, why would Australia protect its multi-billion dollar education sector with India by conceding racism was involved in some of the attacks? Other Australian politicians aren’t kowtowing to India: Simon Crean has recently told India to cut down the hysteria over a recent killing of an Indian student who was killed, the act described as “a heinous crime against humanity” by India’s foreign affairs minister. However, in putting forward a government admission as evidence that racism was present in one case hasn’t Jack Straw (although now an opposition politician but one in a constituency where some of the cases occurred) effectively done the same thing.

    132. douglas clark — on 13th January, 2011 at 12:05 pm  

      Bored in Kavanagasau,

      I’d have thought that the Aussie government would have protected it’s multi billion pound education sector. Except it dosn’t. And neither does the UK government.

      It is, frankly, a tad weird.

    133. Truth be told — on 13th January, 2011 at 12:55 pm  

      Ed West has it sussed:

      The poisonous legacy of Britain’s anti-racism show trial

      http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100071534/the-poisonous-legacy-of-britains-anti-racism-show-trial/

    134. douglas clark — on 13th January, 2011 at 1:24 pm  

      Truth be told,

      If you link is accurate, then we are all fucked.

    135. damon — on 13th January, 2011 at 1:43 pm  

      Bored in Kavanagasau, you make some fair points about the accusations of racism against white Australians that came fast and thick on this thread from 2009. I was just re-reading some of it. (NB comments 16 and 17 ;) )
      http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/4699

      The Indian media it seems, is as bad as our Daily Express for sensationalising stories like the Indian students being attacked. When as you say, some of the attacks weren’t what they seemed, and were as likely to be carried out by multi-ethnic street gangs as they were by white racists …. but that all got a bit lost in the clamour to point the finger at Australian society.

      A bit of the slower, more statistic and evidence based analysis that is being demanded in the on-street grooming situation here, might have been better in those cases of Indian student bashing in Australia I think. But with those cases, people’s perceptions - however wild and vague, were deemed to be OK.

      Joanne, I didn’t mean to say that the women on the beach in Dubai wearing bikinis should have covered up like all the other women on the beach were - who go into the water fully clothed too - as that is the custom. I’m just saying what I saw.

      One thing that told me that Israel was so different to it’s Arab neighbours, was being either side of the Israel/Jordan border down at Eilat/Aqaba on their beaches. Even though the two towns are right next to each other, Eilat has a beach culture of sunbathers wearing very little, and in Jordan the beach was hardly used, and those who were on it were always fully clothed.

      As the technical points about percentages of victims and perpetrators of grooming etc, have had a completly thorough airing on here now, maybe it’s time to broach other difficult issues … like this perhaps. (It didn’t surprise me - but then again, it is racist Israel).

      ”Masturbating ‘Arabs’ Endure Discrimination at Israeli Beach…”

      http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1eb_1245166397

    136. Brownie — on 13th January, 2011 at 2:17 pm  

      I thought that by ‘easy access’, Platinum simply meant that there were more of them.

      That quote is from Manzoor Moghul, chairman of the Muslim Forum, not Platinum, and a quick glance at the full quote:

      “Offenders are under the misapprehension white girls are easy prey. The way they dress, their culture, makes them easy pickings.”

      makes it clear he’s not talking about numbers. He’s talking about “the way they dress, their culture”. But Manzoor Moghul isn’t a former Labour Minister, so there’s nothing to see here. We can all move along.

      And he is spot on about general misogyny. If you think men like that treat ‘their’ women better, then you are stunningly naive.

      Shall I now spend half an hour thinking of things you haven’t said but which you’d be “stunningly naive” to believe?

      “They [the Times] said that there was no evidence for racial targeting, and in fact minority women were a higher proportion of victims than in the area’s population as a whole.”

      I don’t think “racial targeting” is any part of this. It’s about whomever this specific sub-culture of guys perceive to be “easy” (prey/pickings/meat…take your pick).

      I think “minority” in the quote above is at least interesting. Are we talking black, westernised (for want of a better phrase) Asians, something else? I don’t think for a second these criminals will be persuaded that certain women are not “easy” (as they see it) simply because they are minorities. For these guys, there are two types of woman: one group includes their mothers, sisters and those they are destined to marry; the other - all colours, racses and religions - are “easy”.

      Straw and Moghul and Shafiq (when he wants to) will talk about a prejudiced view of *white* girls specifically because they predominate. But I say again: the phenomenon here is not that white girls are the victims, but that a very specific Pakistani sub-culture of young men in these northern towns harbour certain prejudices about women who are not “their own”.

    137. joanne — on 13th January, 2011 at 2:58 pm  

      If we look at American ghettoes, we find that Black and Puerto Rican females are often treated with contempt by liquor store owners based in these same ghettoes-such men, who come from a variety of ethnicities have been known to suggest a willingness to accept sexual favours, over money,in return for purchases.

      So, the view that exists toward white girls here is expressed slightly differently in other parts.

    138. Bored in Kavanagasau — on 13th January, 2011 at 3:30 pm  

      Damon

      What I have gleaned from the comments here and on some other liberal-left blogs is that many of those who are instinctively anti-racist have suddenly become non-racist, downplaying the racial element with this issue. I am not sure of the origin of the concept of “non-racism”, but it was argued for in the mid-80s by thinkers on the right following the furore over the comments made by Ray Honeyford about Asians (that was the label used at the time) taking their children abroad during term time. There are arguments for and against anti-racism or non-racism, but the switching between them by some, based on the relative ethnicity of the victims and assailants, is a little distasteful to put it very mildly. The Guardian, so often reflexively anti-racist on so many issues, including trivial ones such as the lack of ethnic minority wildlife presenters, was uncharacteristically non-racist about on-street grooming.

    139. faisal — on 13th January, 2011 at 7:09 pm  

      AbuF isn’t Faisal from The Spitt00n, just in case there’s any confusion. Have a drink on me, douglas!

    140. earwicga — on 13th January, 2011 at 7:40 pm  

      I have ‘unapproved’ the last few comments as they contain nothing but abuse. They are in moderation and Rumbold will have the final say on them as this is his post.

      Please behave. My naughty step is already full tonight.

    141. douglas clark — on 13th January, 2011 at 7:44 pm  

      earwicga,

      Cool.

      Loved your post about the megaphonic anarchists. Now that looks like a movement I could agree with!

    142. Rumbold — on 13th January, 2011 at 8:01 pm  

      I think perhaps this thread has run its course. I shall now close it *bows head*

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