Persecution of gays in Iraq


by Rumbold
6th December, 2010 at 8:41 am    

Brian Whitaker has an excellent and detailed piece looking at the upsurge in persecution of gay men in the last few years in Iraq:

The problem in post-Saddam Iraq, though, is that the official legal position counts for less than realities on the ground. The wave of “gay” killings was made possible by the breakdown of state control and the rise of local militias, some of them seeking to enforce their own interpretations of Islamic law. That resulted in people being killed for the most trivial of “sins” – among them barbers who gave customers “un-Islamic” haircuts.9 It reached a peak of absurdity when al-Qa‘eda elements in Iraq sought to impose “gender” segregation of vegetables. Claiming that tomatoes are feminine and cucumbers masculine, they argued that greengrocers should not place them next to each other, and that women should not buy or handle cucumbers.

One of the biggest problems is that the plight of homosexuals is very low down the list of priorities for all groups. Current Western policy centres on ensuring that the Iraqi government remains relatively stable, whilst trying to minimise Iranian and Al Qaeda’s influence on the country. Meanwhile supporters of the Sadr army and other groups murdering homosexuals aren’t likely to be the most sympathetic towards the plight of these gay men.

Brian Whitaker quotes Human Rights Watch’s description of the methods of torture and execution:

Murders are committed with impunity, admonitory in intent, with corpses dumped in garbage or hung as warnings on the street. The killers invade the privacy of homes, abducting sons or brothers, leaving their mutilated bodies in the neighbourhood the next day.

“They interrogate and brutalise men to extract names of other people suspected of homosexual conduct. They specialise in grotesque and appalling tortures: several doctors told Human Rights Watch about men executed by injecting glue up their anuses. Their bodies have appeared by the dozens in hospitals and morgues.


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  1. sunny hundal

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  1. cjcjc — on 6th December, 2010 at 9:35 am  

    Is there no disgusting gang whom Seumas Milne does not admire?

  2. Golam Murtaza — on 6th December, 2010 at 10:41 am  

    The subhuman bastards (the murderers).

  3. RezaV — on 6th December, 2010 at 11:30 am  

    Every mainstream school of Islamic Jurisprudence considers homosexuality as a crime that may be punished by death.

    The schools advocate various methods of execution. These including straight –forward hanging, as well as some more creative and brutal ways of dispatch such as “death fall”, “wall toppling” and “harsh beating”.

    So it really isn’t that difficult to imagine how, when views such as these are prevalent, some Muslims might consider ‘anal gluing’ to be an appropriate method of executing homosexuals.

    Now I accept that countless non-Muslim experts on Islam (some of whom regularly bestow to us the benefit of their ‘expertise’ on Islamic matters on this very site) will tell us that the views of those who commit such gruesome acts represent a tiny minority of Muslims who do not understand true Islam, the fluffy, cuddly version full of love, tolerance, peace and understanding.

    I would say to them that unfortunately the Vast Majority of Moderate Muslims also appear to be ‘misunderstanders’ of this ‘moderate’ version of Islam:

    “Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality”:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality

    I appreciate that leftists prefer to ignore reality whenever it contradicts their ideological world view, but the truth is that wherever you have Muslims, you’ll also witness very negative attitudes towards homosexuals, women, Jews and ex-Muslims.

    This is a simple an easily demonstrable fact.

    Rumbold, you wrote “One of the biggest problems is that the plight of homosexuals is very low down the list of priorities for all groups.”

    I’m afraid that anyone who wishes to ‘engage’ with Muslim dominated groups, communities or countries must push back concerns about the plight of homosexuals.

    We’ve seen this behaviour from British leftists who seek alliances with Islamists and it is inevitable that we see it from misguided neo cons who believe that they can change Islamic society with ‘democracy’.

    Finally, some food for thought regarding the inevitable outcome of a rapid increase in the Muslim demographic in a liberal Western European city:

    “For the first time, the Amsterdam Tourist Board has issued a warning to gay visitors to be careful in the city.”

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article522264.ece

  4. cjcjc — on 6th December, 2010 at 12:22 pm  

    “His attackers were Moroccan youths, blamed by Dutch gay rights groups for a disturbing rise of gay-bashing, as conservative Islamic culture clashes with Dutch liberalism.”

    Cue Guardianista heads exploding.

    Though we know which side the left comes down on.

    “Complaints from queasy SWP members who worry about women’s and gay rights were dismissed by Lindsey German at this summer’s SWP conference. “I’m in favour of defending gay rights,” she declared. “But I am not prepared to have it as a shibboleth”

    http://www.newstatesman.com/200307210016

  5. Roger — on 6th December, 2010 at 1:03 pm  

    Shouldn’t be a sexual deviant, then.

    This is one issue where I’m pro-Islam.

  6. damon — on 6th December, 2010 at 1:30 pm  

    Apart from shuddering and thinking how hopeless the situation seems, what are we meant to do?
    And while it’s a perfectly legitimate thing to post about on PP, in a way though, what’s really the point?
    That’s Iraq’s culture coming through, and there’s not much anyone can do about it.
    If you value your life and you live in an area controlled by the Sadrists, it’s best you lead an ”exemplary” life or leave the country.

    It’s like watching that excellent channel 4 programme Unreported World. The situation always seems hopeless.
    http://www.channel4.com/programmes/unreported-world/

  7. Sarah AB — on 6th December, 2010 at 1:55 pm  

    cjcjc – The shibboleth thing was awful, I agree. I can’t speak for Most Moderate (or any!) Muslims but here is one very clear statement on such a topic.

    http://aobm.org.uk/main/?p=188

    Reza – perhaps it might be easier to engage honestly with possible distributions of behaviours/attitudes between groups if such discussions didn’t themselves become a vector for further countermoves of hate and violence.

    I’m not Yasmin AB’s biggest fan but she seemed to be trying to square this circle in quite a human and honest way in relation to a slightly different issue.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhaibrown-asian-men-white-women-and-a-taboo-that-must-be-broken-2146251.html

  8. irfan — on 6th December, 2010 at 2:44 pm  

    Reza V
    “Every mainstream school of Islamic Jurisprudence considers homosexuality as a crime that may be punished by death.”

    Wrong. There is no set punishment , unlike for adultery or theft. Every mainstream schools of Islamic jurisprudence considers sodomy a sin.

    Also virtually the whole Muslim world opposed the illegal invasion of Iraq by two Christians, Bush and Blair which has resulted in this story. Yet this is still the fault of all Muslims in the eyes of the bigots!

  9. BenSix — on 6th December, 2010 at 3:33 pm  

    Iraq was also among the nations who voted to remove sexual orientation from the resolution on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions. Never mind “priorities” – I doubt its government gives a damn at all.

  10. Kismet Hardy — on 6th December, 2010 at 3:34 pm  

    “Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality”:

    There are plenty of gay muslims who have the support of those very close to them (but sure, no one can argue most aren’t in the closet for fear of community backlash, but I think it’s fair to generalise that muslims in the UK are about 20 years behind those born in the UK, who 20 years ago didn’t tolerate that sort of thing much either, I give you Boy George, George Michael yadda yadda yadda). If you really want to know more about the subject, speak to Fazal Mahmood, the Community Development Officer of Positive East, which facilitates Himat, a support group for South Asian men who are gay or questioning their sexuality, Asif Quraishi of South Asian MSM (Men who Sleep with Men), an affiliate of Naz Project, Faarea Masud, the Editor of The Gayasian, the premier magazine for the South Asian lesbian, gay and bisexual community. All Muslim names, you’ll notice.

  11. RezaV — on 6th December, 2010 at 3:49 pm  

    cjcjc @ #4

    Excellent contribution. That’s exactly the point I was making.

    The most contemptible characteristic among a certain type of leftie is a readiness to support the most evil ideology if that ideology is held by a group that shares their hatred of America, the West, ‘Capitalism’, Britain, Israel etc.

    The same lefties who where once apologists and cheerleaders for the Soviet system that enslaved, persecuted and murdered millions are today apologists and cheerleaders for another vile and equally fascistic ideology, Islamism, that enslaves, persecutes and murders so many now.

    What’s worse this time is that the default position of such people is to wilfully deny that that ‘brown’ or ‘black’ people are capable of fascistic views no matter how much evidence is shoved before their own ‘lying eyes’. After all, the ills of the world are exclusively down to ‘whitey’.

    Nick Cohen’s excellent book “What’s Left” covers this subject brilliantly.

    Roger @ #5

    In a free society I support the right of people to think and say whatever they believe – even bigoted and thoroughly unpalatable views such as yours – as long as they do not openly incite others to harm anyone. Yes, you have the right to hate gays. What I don’t believe you have the right to do is to advocate or even support their slaughter.

    Many devout Christians might hate homosexuality and believe that gays will be doomed to eternal damnation. Those beliefs, whilst unpalatable to me personally, should be allowable in a free society.

    Many Muslims on the other hand hate homosexuals and believe that, in an ideal world, they should be killed or punished in THIS life (a distinction that is wilfully ignored by stupid moral relativists). This viewpoint is utterly unacceptable in a our society and anyone holding that view exemplifies “fascist scum” who should be swept “off our streets”.

    Sadly, hell will freeze over before those with a propensity to march through the streets chanting that mantra will use it with regard to the ‘brown’ fascists who make up a significant minority of our Muslim ‘community’.

    Damon @ #6

    “That’s Iraq’s culture coming through, and there’s not much anyone can do about it.
    If you value your life and you live in an area controlled by the Sadrists, it’s best you lead an ”exemplary” life or leave the country.”

    You’re absolutely right in your first sentence. However, you haven’t considered the additional problem that comes about when those Iraqis do leave their country and come to the West.

    They enter an environment where their cultural homophobia and other bigoted and unacceptable views will go virtually unchallenged.

    Because anyone who challenges them will be accused of being ‘racist’ or ‘Islamophobic’ by the usual dickhead apologists we encounter so often among the ‘progressive’ left.

  12. BenSix — on 6th December, 2010 at 3:52 pm  

    Cjcjc -

    Lindsey German is not “the left”. Christ, she isn’t even the SWP anymore.

  13. damon — on 6th December, 2010 at 4:16 pm  

    Also virtually the whole Muslim world opposed the illegal invasion of Iraq by two Christians, Bush and Blair which has resulted in this story. Yet this is still the fault of all Muslims in the eyes of the bigots!

    That argument gives the idea that you need Ba’ath Party like dictators to stop this kind of thing happening. Either that or some pure Sharia maybe, but not just elections and the kind of democracy they have now.
    The British did try to curtail the rise of the Badr and Sadr organisations in the south but were not powerful enough. Not brutal enough maybe. The Americans weren’t impressed anyway.
    But you have to blame the people who are doing this most of all I’d have thought.

    Rory Stewart, who I admire, said this in 2005 after spending time as deputy governor of two southern Iraqi provinces.

    In place of last year’s insurgency, there is now an increasingly confident governing apparatus in the south, which extends from governors and provincial councillors to the militias, police and ministries. The leaders of these groups have a distinctive Islamist ideology and complex history. This new Islamist state is elected, it functions and it is relatively popular. We may not like it, but we can only try to understand it and acknowledge that there is now little we can do to influence it.

    http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/2005/11/losingthesouth/

  14. RezaV — on 6th December, 2010 at 4:17 pm  

    irfan

    “There is no set punishment , unlike for adultery or theft.”

    I thought that I made it clear, giving examples, that the schools advocate a variety of different punishments.

    “Every mainstream schools of Islamic jurisprudence considers sodomy a sin.”

    Indeed they do. So what point are you trying to make? Are you claiming that the MAJOR schools do not advocate the punishment of homosexuals? If you are then please provide a reputable link and prove me wrong.

    The rest of your post demonstrates a frankly pathetic level of whataboutary that doesn’t dignify a response.

  15. RezaV — on 6th December, 2010 at 4:31 pm  

    Sarah AB

    Allow me to paraphrase you point:

    “Reza – perhaps it might be easier to engage honestly with possible distributions of behaviours/attitudes between groups if such discussions…

    …ignored the truth apparent and didn’t criticise the intolerable attitudes af massive numbers of ‘brown’ people’.”

    Sorry Sarah, ignoring reality and appeasing the intolerable doesn’t achieve anything.

    Imagine if the widespread ‘racism’ of the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s had been addressed by denying that large numbers of ‘white’ Britons had ‘racist’ attitudes?

    Just keep linking to ‘evidence’ from outfits such as AoBM and Yasmin AB, who have virtually zero support from British Muslims.

    Why not quote Quilliam too? I find their interoperation of Islam very palatable indeed. Let’s ignore the fact that they speak for virtually no Muslims…

    In doing so we can pretend that there is no fundamental problem with Islam and the rapidly expanding Muslim population in Britain.

    Ah, that sanctimonious feeling of wellbeing that comes from multi-culti PC goodness…

    Whilst another gay is killed or beaten to within an inch of their lives!

  16. to Reza — on 6th December, 2010 at 4:48 pm  

    Reza I like your use of the persecution of one minority group (gays) as a way of stirring up hatred and encouraging persecution of another minority group (Muslims). Pure class.

  17. Sarah AB — on 6th December, 2010 at 5:00 pm  

    Reza – I do actually agree with quite a few of your points – I’m a fan of ‘What’s Left’ (though not of everything Nick Cohen has written elsewhere and more recently), I like much of what Quilliam has to say, and think the distinction between thinking homosexuality is a sin and thinking homosexuality should be punished is absolutely crucial. I wasn’t quoting YAB because she’s a Muslim, but because I think her article reflects and tackles the way in which one’s ability to speak or indeed think clearly about this kind of issue is clouded by who else is talking about the issue and in what terms. If lots of racist groups are pouncing on the story about Muslims grooming young white girls then one is going to be more inclined to say ‘but what about the non Muslim pimps – you don’t mention *their* colour or religion’ than ‘well, maybe the interface beween Muslim and the more liberal non Muslim culture could be a factor’. (See the YAB link for more on all this.) Actually, articulating an apparent link between a group (Muslims or anyone else) and a crime, getting it out into the open, *could* be a means of explaining/mitigating the statistics. For example the CST have demonstrated that the apparent over representation of Muslims in antisemitc incidents can be attributed partly to demographic factors rather than simply to Muslims being more antisemitic.

  18. Joanne (africana) — on 6th December, 2010 at 5:31 pm  

    “@RezaV,

    Imagine if the widespread ‘racism’ of the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s had been addressed by denying that large numbers of ‘white’ Britons had ‘racist’ attitudes?”

    Your point is irrelevant and, what’s more, not true. Vast swathes of white people were not donning Neo-Nazi regalia. Talking about going to the P*ki shop, loathsome as it sounds, was for, many people, a way of differentiating one business premise from another.

  19. cjcjc — on 6th December, 2010 at 5:36 pm  

    “Lindsey German is not “the left”. Christ, she isn’t even the SWP anymore.”

    Seumas Milne is more representative of the disgusting type, I agree.

  20. BenSix — on 6th December, 2010 at 5:47 pm  

    Well, I’m not a fan of Milne. Not for his politics, really, but his tone. Perhaps it’s prejudicial but it seems as if the vaguest of smiles would smash his face into shards.

    On the other hand, if we’re baiting apologists for Sadr – who, if, indeed, they exist, are as bankrupt as they’re bemusing – it would be nice if critics of da Left would cast an eye over the state that’s arisen from the war that they supported. Nick Cohen deleted it from the copy n’ pasted list of tyrannies he decried over the UN vote, while Aaronovitch describes it – with, I’d guess, a measure of discomfort – as an “idiosyncratic democracy”.

  21. Sunny — on 6th December, 2010 at 6:09 pm  

    Seumas Milne is more representative of the disgusting type, I agree.

    Show me once where he’s justified the kinds of attacks above.

  22. BenSix — on 6th December, 2010 at 6:11 pm  

    Good question.

  23. joe90 — on 6th December, 2010 at 6:33 pm  

    post #16

    i would’nt bother with him dude, the frozen ice on britian’s roads since last week was also fault of muslims according to this fruitcake!

  24. An Old Friend — on 6th December, 2010 at 7:58 pm  

    Sorry to say but no one cares about gays. Christianity is growing in parts of the world that dont care about gays either. Never have and never will. Gay obsession is really a Western European issue. Not even Americans care about what happens to gays.

  25. Don — on 6th December, 2010 at 8:12 pm  

    Compare this with evangelical christianity , particularly in Africa.

    When abrahamic religions feel they have a free hand, they’re gonna kill them some gays.

  26. Kulvinder — on 6th December, 2010 at 8:13 pm  

    Given Iraq is a de-facto war zone any commentary based on a critic of the culture of iraqis/arabs/muslims has little validity in my eyes; so im unsure what the final analysis can be apart from gay people are another tragic marginalised group suffering in Iraq.

    But still the thread contained something about islam and that allowed Reza to go off on one again; we all enjoy reading that eh, eh?

  27. Kismet Hardy — on 6th December, 2010 at 8:49 pm  

    I want to invite Reza to a dinner party with my pals at gayasian.co.uk and only when he’s settled in for his sausage and sourkraut soup, announce he’s surrounded by gay muslims. Whatever will he do then?

    PS. Old Friend, not to dignify your retarded comment or anything, but as any party loving gay person will tell you, this is the place to be:

    http://www.gaytlvguide.com/

    It’s not in the west, like.

  28. Rumbold — on 6th December, 2010 at 8:53 pm  

    Sunny and BenSix:

    His frequent lauding of what he calls the ‘resistance’ is proof enough. You can’t praise people like that and then claim you are disgusted by the above. It would be like me praising the Nazis and romanticising them and then claiming I have nothing against Jews.

  29. An Old Friend — on 6th December, 2010 at 10:47 pm  
  30. Don — on 6th December, 2010 at 10:54 pm  

    Seen it.

  31. Sunny — on 7th December, 2010 at 1:41 am  

    His frequent lauding of what he calls the ‘resistance’ is proof enough. You can’t praise people like that and then claim you are disgusted by the above

    I’m afraid that’s not exactly right.

    First, you could say he calls for resistance by people who don’t carry out stuff like this.

    Secondly – the US and UK prop up political bodies in Iraq and Afghanistan who also hate gays and would do the same.

    By your implication, Seamus Milne hates gays as much as the US and UK govt do. Yes?

  32. cjcjc — on 7th December, 2010 at 8:25 am  

    “Resistance” against what?

    And in favour of what?

    Milne is a f*cking disgrace, even to the tax-avoiding now-beyond-parody Guardian.

  33. Rumbold — on 7th December, 2010 at 8:46 am  

    Sunny:

    No. Seamus Milne is a fan of the ‘resistance’ and frquently praises their actions. The UK and US do work with homophobes (as I note in the piece) because of realpolitik, but that is a big difference.

    As a columnist Milne isn’t constrained by realpolitik, and therefore approves of their actions. For example, in the second world we allied with some deeply unpleasant regimes, including Stalin. Now, despite the fondess that a number on the left still have for mass murder in the name of communism (as shown by their wearing of Soviet symbols), nobody was obliged to support Stalin. The UK needed Soviet help, but columnists weren’t required to write pieces praising Stalin’s ethnic cleansing.

  34. RezaV — on 7th December, 2010 at 9:02 am  

    Kismet, you do write some tosh.

    “…muslims in the UK are about 20 years behind those born in the UK, who 20 years ago didn’t tolerate that sort of thing much either,…”

    Around 20 years ago, my male heterosexual colleague and I interviewed a number of candidates for a position as our PA. We ended up appointing the best applicant, Gavin, a very talented and very openly Gay man.

    Gavin attended our company functions with his partner and NOBODY batted an eyelid. Certainly there was never talk of him being an ‘abomination’ and no one suggested gluing his anus.

    This wasn’t some ‘right-on’ public or voluntary sector outfit either but a highly competitive, aggressive male-dominated business environment.

    The oft-cited “give Islam/Muslims time and they’ll catch up” excuse is not borne out by any evidence whatsoever.

    “I want to invite Reza to a dinner party with my pals at gayasian.co.uk and only when he’s settled in for his sausage and sourkraut soup, announce he’s surrounded by gay muslims. Whatever will he do then?”

    To prove what? Are you suggesting that I’d be uncomfortable in the company of gay men? You’d be embarrassed matey, I suspect that I was dancing to Kylie and Madonna in gay clubs before you ever ‘came out’. You don’t have to be gay to do so you know…

    My attitude to sexuality is the same as my attitude to skin-colour or hair-colour – it is utterly irrelevant. They don’t define a person. Only culture and beliefs do that.

    (And by the way, do you really serve sausage and sauerkraut soup? I love zelenichka and eat it on my frequent work-trips to the Czech Republic.)

  35. damon — on 7th December, 2010 at 12:40 pm  

    A RAPIST who was shot seven times in the legs and genitals in a paramilitary attack in Belfast last month has lost his genitals, after surgeons were unable to save them.

    Darren Murdoch was wounded after masked men broke into a house he was staying in, in Ardoyne on the northside of the city, on November 15 and fired at his groin, abdomen and legs, striking him seven times.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/rapist-loses-genitals-after-being-shot-seven-times-2010-12/

    This was done by a group that is pretending that it is the IRA – and the legitmate government of the whole of Ireland. They do this kind of thing quite regularly as they think it will bring them support from the local population.
    It’s the same kind of mob ”justice” that is being meted out in Iraq. They think it will be met with approval and shows how hard they are.

  36. earwicga — on 7th December, 2010 at 12:45 pm  

    damon, I think the difference is that the ‘mob “justice”‘ in Iraq is being employed by state forces in state facilities against all LGBT people. They aren’t pretending to be acting for the govt, they really ARE.

  37. Oh Behave — on 7th December, 2010 at 3:16 pm  

    Let’s just hope that they don’t add indignity to barbarism by only calling their victims by their first names, eh?

  38. cjcjc — on 7th December, 2010 at 3:21 pm  

    @46
    “I think the difference is that the ‘mob “justice”‘ in Iraq is being employed by state forces in state facilities against all LGBT people”

    Is it?

    According to the OP it seems to be largely the prerogative of Milne’s beloved “resistance”.

    “The wave of “gay” killings was made possible by the breakdown of state control and the rise of local militias, some of them seeking to enforce their own interpretations of Islamic law.”

  39. BenSix — on 7th December, 2010 at 5:43 pm  

    cjcjc -

    I don’t have any clinching evidence at my fingertips but here’s something from a source you may not dismiss as being villianous leftists…

    Our members – and all Iraqi LGBTs – are at daily risk of execution by the Shia death squads of the Badr and Sadr militias. Members of these militias have infiltrated the Iraqi police and are abusing their police authority to pursue a plan to eliminate all homosexuals in Iraq. This is happening with the collusion of key ministers in the Iraqi government.

    http://dissentmagazine.org/democratiya/article_pdfs/d8Hili.pdf

  40. Kismet Hardy — on 8th December, 2010 at 12:46 am  

    Reza, no silly. 20 years ago not everyone in the UK was homophobic, and 20 years on, not all Muslims are homophobic. Especially the gay ones, like.

    And I’m not suggesting you’d get freaked out at my fantasy dinner party because the guests will be gay, but because they’re Muslim. You know, the ones you don’t like? If you’re not sure, there are clues in your posts. They make little me laugh

    Cheers for the zelenichka tip though. Sounds yum

  41. RezaV — on 8th December, 2010 at 5:16 pm  

    Kismet

    “And I’m not suggesting you’d get freaked out at my fantasy dinner party because the guests will be gay, but because they’re Muslim.”

    You mean they’ll have a Muslim heritage. You can’t really be a mainstream, practicing Muslim and be gay, can you? Do tell me how.

    I wonder what the imam would say. Can you point me in the direction of a single Mosque or imam that would welcome a practicing and ‘out’ gay Muslim?

    Thought not.

    And even devout and practicing Muslims won’t freak me out silly. A few of my closest relatives are practicing Muslims. I’ve entertained them at my home. I even asked my missus to wear a long-sleeved shirt and trousers out of ‘respect’ for their cultural sensibilities. (Although I drew the line at asking her to wear a hejab in our own home forcing my male guest to ‘lower his gaze’ as stipulated by Islam.).

    I’m named after Imam Reza, one of the twelve infallible Imams of the Shia faith, whose beautiful shrine I’ve had the privilege to visit in Mashhad.

    I’ve witnessed a procession of fanatics whipping themselves with zanjeer in Qom during Ashura.

    Later that day, I witnessed ‘chadored’ women competing with each other to cry and scream at the Fatema shrine.

    I’ve attended weddings where I’ve debated with Mullahs and on one occasion, I had the privilege of discussing Islam with an Ayatollah in Arokh.

    To quote a line from one of my favourite films, “I’ve seen things you people wouldn’t believe…”

    And despite everything, I do loathe the ideology of Islam. I understand it to be fundamentally fascistic. As most ex-Muslims do.

    But I forgot. I’m an imposter. A ‘white’ ethnic English stooge paid to pretend to be ethnic Iranian in order to comment on miserable leftie sites by dark and invisible forces…

  42. Kismet Hardy — on 8th December, 2010 at 5:27 pm  

    I can’t believe you’re brazenly talking about attackships on fire? Bloody Muslim!

    Dude, I hate religion of all sorts. You just keep banging on like all muslims are somehow implicated instead of just a small bunch of cocksuckers who should all fry in hell. But you get some muslims can be gay, some can be you, and some can be me, and while a cocksucker I may be, a killer in the making I ain’t.

    Is all

    x

  43. Sarah AB — on 8th December, 2010 at 6:45 pm  

    Gosh Reza – we may not see eye to eye on all issues, but as I was reading your email I found myself thinking of Rutger Hauer even before getting to that quote!

  44. Don — on 8th December, 2010 at 7:27 pm  

    Actually, Reza’s point could reasonably expect an answer. Is there a mosque in the UK (or elsewhere) that openly welcomes (or even accepts) muslims who are openly gay?

    Obviously the RC church still has huge issues to resolve about this, as do some sections of the anglican church and a lot of evangelicals. But apart from the lunatic fringe they have stopped calling for draconian reactions to same sex hochmagandy. Clearly they are still hellbound, but they are no longer helped on the way. At least not with explicit approval by the hierarchy.

  45. Katy Newton — on 8th December, 2010 at 9:28 pm  

    The LGF’s website has a section devoted to gay muslims here.

    The comments are worth a read. I had assumed that there would be fringe mosques which were tolerant of homosexuality but that really doesn’t appear to be the case. I think there must be a lot of very lonely and troubled people out there.

    But apart from the lunatic fringe they have stopped calling for draconian reactions to same sex hochmagandy.

    Hmm, well. Teaching people that it’s just about ok to be gay in principle as long as you never act on it and hate yourself for wanting to, which is most religions’ baseline position on homosexuality, is pretty draconian in itself.

  46. Nimnom — on 8th December, 2010 at 10:55 pm  

    “First, you could say he calls for resistance by people who don’t carry out stuff like this.”

    Why? Where and whenever has he made that distinction? He supports ‘the resistance’ and has never made the exception you might wish him to have made. like much of the left, gays can just go under the bus so far as he is concerned.

    this very thread illustrates how what starts of as a discussion on the treatment of homosexuals soon gets on to an irritated wish that the subject sohld be changed.

    “Reza I like your use of the persecution of one minority group (gays) as a way of stirring up hatred and encouraging persecution of another minority group (Muslims). Pure class.”

    Muslims are being treated in Britain like gay people are in Iraq? Yes?

    If not, do cease your transparent offensive placing of Muslims as equal victims of violent prejudice and dsicrimination, as gay people. The former are nowhere near as oppressed or victimised, here or anywhwere else.

  47. Nimnom — on 8th December, 2010 at 11:12 pm  

    It is perfectly reasonably, logical and sensible for gay people to be concerned, even alarmed or resentful, to hear about the zero or near zero tolerance for homsexuality among British Muslims, especially when they consider how gay people are treated in almost all Muslim majority countries.

    Why would anyone who doesn’t assume gay people should not care about their own security, expect them to ignore such a development for fear of it aiding Islamophobes? Since when was Islamophobia of more intrinsic seriousness than homophobia?

  48. Shamit — on 8th December, 2010 at 11:46 pm  

    So as long as saddam was doing the killing and using nerve agents it was okay for us to look the other way.

    Or when Blair wanted to put more troops in Iraq, the left that continuously protested against it – the left that argued against the troop surge by Bush – should take more responsibility and look again. In fact, it was political compulsions at home that stopped Blair from putting more troops in Basra – and so we had to leave and then Americans went in and sorted out Sadr militia

    Seamus Milne and Glenn Beck are two sides of the same coin. They are both great at lying and finding truth where none exists.

    And those assholes who continue to glorigy resistance in Iraq obviously are oblivious to what happened in Anwar. As well as the fact that in the last three elections over 75% of Iraqis voted despite all sorts of death threats against them from “resistance”.

    And we are not propping up regimes in Iraq – if we did there would not have been a stalemate for six months before they could finalise a bloody government.

    loony left and the loony right – wish they could all be transported to an island. They would have competitions on intra group patting on each others backs and viewing the world with their simpleton views.

    fucking hell – what is this world coming to?

  49. Kismet Hardy — on 9th December, 2010 at 12:16 am  

    Tears in the rain, my friends, tears in the rain…

    (look what you’ve unleashed reza)

  50. Jai — on 9th December, 2010 at 11:00 am  

    And even devout and practicing Muslims won’t freak me out silly. A few of my closest relatives are practicing Muslims. I’ve entertained them at my home. I even asked my missus to wear a long-sleeved shirt and trousers out of ‘respect’ for their cultural sensibilities. (Although I drew the line at asking her to wear a hejab in our own home forcing my male guest to ‘lower his gaze’ as stipulated by Islam.).

    I’m named after Imam Reza, one of the twelve infallible Imams of the Shia faith, whose beautiful shrine I’ve had the privilege to visit in Mashhad.

    I’ve witnessed a procession of fanatics whipping themselves with zanjeer in Qom during Ashura.

    Later that day, I witnessed ‘chadored’ women competing with each other to cry and scream at the Fatema shrine.

    I’ve attended weddings where I’ve debated with Mullahs and on one occasion, I had the privilege of discussing Islam with an Ayatollah in Arokh.

    To quote a line from one of my favourite films, “I’ve seen things you people wouldn’t believe…”

    And despite everything, I do loathe the ideology of Islam. I understand it to be fundamentally fascistic. As most ex-Muslims do.

    But I forgot. I’m an imposter. A ‘white’ ethnic English stooge paid to pretend to be ethnic Iranian in order to comment on miserable leftie sites by dark and invisible forces…

    And yet, even after extracting all that information from Wikipedia, apparently “RezaV” forgot to check the correct spelling of the globally-known Islamic phrase “Allah-u-Akbar”, and wrote the following on PP during one of his less guarded moments:

    Ironically, most people simply shouted “Allah-o-akhbaar!” To show opposition to the Islamist regime!

    (Source: http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/9580#comment-216237)

    It’s similar to his previous faux pas on PP when, for example, he claimed that Islam was “indigenous to Iran” (it isn’t — Zoroastrianism is), or that Pakistan — a region of the Indian subcontinent immediately to the east of Iran, with thousands of years of overlapping history with Iran/Persia and with a lengthy land border with modern-day Iran — is “an ethnically and culturally homogeneous country” (it isn’t).

    One of the key aspects of the film “Blade Runner”, of course, was replicants attempting to masquerade as something they were not, but unable to stop themselves from giving the game away under certain conditions. Given the references to Blade Runner earlier on this thread, it’s certainly an appropriate choice of movie.

  51. BenSix — on 9th December, 2010 at 1:10 pm  

    Shamit – No. No one’s suggested that we should have looked the other way. They’ve said that we shouldn’t have launched a massive bloody war that’s killed tens upon tens of thousands while helping institute a regime that acts with the same callousness – if not on the same scale – as that which preceded it. If a man was beating his wife next door and one opposed solving it with a few pounds of TNT that wouldn’t mean one advocated “looking the other way”.

  52. damon — on 9th December, 2010 at 1:29 pm  

    Jai also has said that Reza is the dreadful bigot Dan Dare – which I didn’t see myself.
    I don’t think Reza gets any worthwhile benefit for pretending to be from Iran. His views are still very very dodgy in my opinion.

    All gay Iraqis should be granted asylum I’d say.
    In Britain if needs be. We screwed up and now left them abandoned.

  53. Ho hum — on 9th December, 2010 at 1:52 pm  

    apparently “RezaV” forgot to check the correct spelling of the globally-known Islamic phrase “Allah-u-Akbar”

    It is not in the least surprising that someone who thinks a travel writer is a “historian” should be utterly ignorant of Iranian orthographic conventions in English. He could take his spelling difficulties up with an Ayatollah or a Hojatolislam, but there appears to be a good chance that he does not about them either.

  54. Sarah AB — on 9th December, 2010 at 2:35 pm  

    I remember that exchange about Allah-u-Akbar. Part of the problem seemed to be that it was an odd phrase to use to express a dislike of the government. But this usage seems to be confirmed in this post.

    http://hurryupharry.org/2010/12/07/la-lucha-continua/

    (I tend to disagree with Reza so this comment is meant in a spirit of Arnoldian disinterestedness!)

  55. Jai — on 9th December, 2010 at 4:29 pm  

    It is not in the least surprising that someone who thinks a travel writer is a “historian” should be utterly ignorant of Iranian orthographic conventions in English. He could take his spelling difficulties up with an Ayatollah or a Hojatolislam, but there appears to be a good chance that he does not about them either.

    Wrong on all counts, considering that Persian/Farsi was the official language of government in northern India until the late 1830s (and for approximately a decade longer in the case of the independent Sikh territory under Maharajah Ranjit Singh). But then again, I wouldn’t expect an apologist for “RezaV” to be aware of either that fact or the sheer scale of Persian linguistic & cultural influence on northern India during the past 800 years.

    Furthermore, I was specifically referring to “RezaV’s” glaring mispelling of the word “Akbar”, which is never spelt as “Akhbaar” according to Iranian orthographic conventions in English.

    “Allah-u-Akbar”, yes. “Allah-o-Akbar”, yes. “Allah-ho-Akbar”, yes. “Allah-hu-Akbar”, also yes.

    But “Allah-o-Ackbaar” ? Absolutely not. There are Muslim populations elsewhere in the world which do indeed spell “Akbar” that way, but Iranians are certainly not among them. Not even remotely.

    This is yet another example to add to the long list of online blunders where “RezaV” has persistently outed himself as lying his head off about his alleged background.

  56. Jai — on 9th December, 2010 at 4:52 pm  

    As for the following remark by “RezaV” in #34:

    I love zelenichka and eat it on my frequent work-trips to the Czech Republic

    “Work-trips” involving meetings with Petra Edelmannová and her colleagues, no doubt. The BNP’s extensive dealings with the extreme far-Right Czech National Party during the past couple of years have been heavily documented.

  57. Jai — on 9th December, 2010 at 5:25 pm  

    From my comment #55:

    But “Allah-o-Ackbaar” ? Absolutely not. There are Muslim populations elsewhere in the world which do indeed spell “Akbar” that way, but Iranians are certainly not among them. Not even remotely.

    That should of course say “Allah-o-Akhbaar“, as per “RezaV’s” blundering misspelling of the well-known Islamic phrase. However, as I said earlier, real Iranians certainly don’t spell “Akbar” that way.

  58. Bartholomew — on 10th December, 2010 at 3:49 am  

    “Furthermore, I was specifically referring to “RezaV’s” glaring mispelling of the word “Akbar”, which is never spelt as “Akhbaar” according to Iranian orthographic conventions in English.

    There are Muslim populations elsewhere in the world which do indeed spell “Akbar” that way, but Iranians are certainly not among them. Not even remotely.

    As I said earlier, real Iranians certainly don’t spell “Akbar” that way.”

    Are you an Iranian, Jai? If not, what, precisely, makes you the authority on how every single ‘real’ Iranian writes a particular word in roman script?

    In any case, here you go:

    http://groups.google.com/group/democracy-for-iran

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BXKWh9wSpo

    http://www.meforum.org/275/what-to-do-about-iran

  59. AbuF — on 10th December, 2010 at 6:16 am  

    The following very orthodox Shi’a view on zanjeer should be read to oppose the sheer fantasy as projected by the so-called RezaV:

    http://www.ezsoftech.com/mazloom/zanjeer.asp

    Khoda hafiz

  60. AbuF — on 10th December, 2010 at 6:18 am  

    RezaV brings a whole new perspective to the expression “Aryan Nation”…

  61. RezaV — on 10th December, 2010 at 9:46 am  

    Oh dear!

    This brings a whole new angle to the term Ad Hominem.

    Jai is back with his pathetic paranoia and utterly childish conspiracy theories. You are worse than the worst of all trolls.

    And there is an almost audible sigh of relief among those to dim to argue with me on the merits of my argument. “Phew, he’s an imposter. I don’t need to worry about mentally resolving the difficult questions he raises. I’ll keep believing my received wisdom.”

    And it gets better! The truth of me being an impostor is in the way I spell an Arabic word! It’s Arabic you morons. It is written in Arabic. I wrote it phonetically, in the way I say it and have heard it said. There is no right and wrong. No ‘Iranian’ or other way of spelling an Arabic term in English.

    Thank you Sarah AB for vindicating this point. No Sarah, we often don’t agree, but I would never sink so low as to attack your very identity because of it or peddle contemptable conspiracy theories about you.

    (Today it has become fashionable to spell the Islamic text as “qur’an”. I’ve always written “Koran”. If I wrote it phonetically, in the way I would say it in Farsi, I would write “ghoran”. And if I did, would it ‘prove’ to some buffoon that I’m not an ethnic-Iranian?)

    I can cope with all of this bullshit. But being accused of being a racist, a BNP supporter or a member of the Arian nation is deeply, deeply offensive to me. And I’m astonished that anyone, however cretinous, could accuse me of that loathsome and confirmed BNP supporter ‘Dan Dare’, who thought it was witty to make fun of South Asians with good old fashioned racist speech!

    However much some people might disagree with me there is no denying that we’re witnessing utter moral and intellectual ‘midgetry’.

    Anyone with an ounce of integrity who saw the idiocy or possibly sinister motivations behind what Jai is doing would stand up and be heart. I know I would, however much I disagreed with someone.

    Jai, you have once again crossed the line and I’ll end this once and for all.

    I hereby make an announcement.

    In February, I’m visiting relatives in Iran. I propose that I make a short video and put it on YouTube. The title of the video will be “Jai is a Twat” (although on YouTube I’ll call it “Jai is Twit”, to be on the safe side.)

    On the video, I will film myself in various Tehran locations (naturally, I’ll hide my identity, but I introduce myself as RezaV). I will, whenever possible, introduce the scenes with “Jai, this is for you, you utter, utter twat”. I’ll then, record myself in Farsi, asking tea-house workers and other members of the Iranian public to give a short message on camera. I’ll simply ask them to say in, in English “Jai is a twat”.

    I will then make it my mission to put a link to that short film after every bullshit comment that our earnest but non-too-bright ‘expert’ on all things Iranian and Islamic makes.

    With a brief summary of all of the ridiculous accusations he’s made.

    And I’ll keep doing it until he admits he is wrong and apologises for his personal attacks on me.

    This is my promise to you Jai.

  62. cjcjc — on 10th December, 2010 at 9:54 am  

    Reza – I look forward to seeing it!

  63. RezaV — on 10th December, 2010 at 10:15 am  

    cjcjc

    I actually feel that it would be appropriate for a blog such as Harry’s Place to present it. A list of Jai and Sunny’s contemptible accusations and personal attacks on me followed by a link to the video. (For the sake of good order, I’ll ask a random Tehrani to say “Sunny is a twat” on camera).

    This case actually does highlight an important issue – the way liberal fascists will sink to any depths in order to undermine or silence those with whom they disagree.

    Do you have any clout with HP? Can you put this idea to them?

  64. Sarah AB — on 10th December, 2010 at 10:35 am  

    RezaV – it’s a bit of a Shrodinger’s cat scenario. If you’re who/what you say you are then are right to be irritated. If not, not. You don’t strike me as being ‘Dan Dare’, whose tone was quite different. Your rhetoric does however remind me of another former commenter on PP. But, clearly, it should be possible to set the record straight in some way, along the lines you suggest.

  65. RezaV — on 10th December, 2010 at 10:47 am  

    Sarah AB

    I will do that. It’s a promise on which I hereby stake my ‘virual’ reputation that I nevertheless value.

    However, do you agree with me that it is an issue that is worthy of publicity and debate? The way extremists on the left (and the right) attack the very soul of those with whom they disagree so that they may undermine their arguments or cause them to be disregarded?

    I could compile a list of some very offensive accusations made against me by Jai (and Sunny) followed by a link to the video.

    Would you be willing to hawk the idea to HP or any other blog to allow others to debate and comment on the issues it raises?

    The tactic Jai is employing utterly anti-democratic and immoral. And I’m tired of seeing it everywhere.

  66. cjcjc — on 10th December, 2010 at 10:51 am  

    I’m afraid I have little clout with anybody!

  67. Rumbold — on 10th December, 2010 at 10:57 am  

    RezaV:

    From my point of view, I don’t really mind whether you are Iranian or not. I have no reason to disbelieve you, as I don’t see any advantage accuring to you as a result. I find plenty of what you say quite extreme and unpleasant (though as far as I can tell, you are not ‘Dan Dare’).

  68. AbuF — on 10th December, 2010 at 11:06 am  

    Actually, the Arabic would be transliterated:

    ‘Allah akhbar

    Note the lack of article on the predicate. The copula (*is*) as in *Allah is greatest* (the better translation) is, of course, implied.

    To assert Allah al-akhbar would be to make the *al-akhbar* an adjectival expression: *the greatest God [is Allah]* – which, of course, would be to imperil the strict monotheism of Islam by implying that there were other gods apart from Allah.

    That would be, of course, shirk – a truly huge naughtiness in Islamic theology.

    Allah-e akhbar would be a better transliteration of the Persian, where the -e suffix is implying (in this case) a copula = *Allah is the greatest*: in other words a mirror of the Arabic. Persian (like Arabic) implies the copula.

    Just to avoid any confusion: *Allah is the greatest [entity in any ontology]” should clearly be distinguished from *The greatest god [amongst others].

    I hope this is clear.

    Sorry, but I do know Arabic and some Persian – unlike the fraud, RezaV

  69. RezaV — on 10th December, 2010 at 11:11 am  

    Rumbold

    The consistent integrity that you demonstrate on PP is apparent.

    I have nothing but respect for the fact that you dislike what I have to say and whenever you do respond to my comments, you seek to challenge my argument with intelligence and dignity.

    As such you make me think about what I’ve written and try to understand the other point of view. I doubt that we’ll every agree but this dynamic is what a democratic society needs. The freedom to raise, challenge and debate ideas. To win or lose an argument. Or even to reach a stalemate.

    Attacking the man demonstrates zero integrity. It drags the debate down to a slanging match.

    What makes the above exchange an issue worthy of comment and debate is that this situation is not peculiar to PP. You see it everywhere, especially on the more left-wing blogs.

    And who can forget the decades when any alternative view about immigration or multiculturalism was suppressed with the accusation “racist!”

    (Chris Mullen’s book makes some interesting comments on this.)

    No. This has to end. I want to draw a line in the sand.

  70. Sarah AB — on 10th December, 2010 at 11:15 am  

    Reza – I still wouldn’t agree with you about most things though, even assuming you are really ‘Reza’!

    In a sense it seems absurd to discount the views of someone based on their ethnicity or whatever. If a white person speaks eloquently about how terrible it is for an apostate to go in danger of his life, that should be every bit as valid as the same comment from an Iranian born into a Muslim culture. But if a white British commenter is using an Iranian name to legitimise anti-Muslim feeling that is dodgy. But obviously if you really are an apostate, and you have genuinely had fears for your safety (I’m going on slightly hazy memories of a previous HP thread here) then it must be intensely frustrating to have your identity questioned – and you clearly have an excellent case for keeping your identity secret too.

    I think maybe you should try to get such a piece published on PP actually! I probably haven’t seen every comment made by Jai and Sunny about you, but I do have some sympathy with their position, as I have personally also doubted your identity – that’s just an involuntary response, so please don’t be offended. Obviously, apologies in advance, if I was being over suspicious.

  71. RezaV — on 10th December, 2010 at 11:23 am  

    AbuF

    If you were relevant to this debate then my February video would include a random Tehrani saying “AbuF is a twat”. But you’re not, so it won’t.

    Out of a kind desire to educate you however, I’d like to take you back to you comment #59 which you concluded with “Khoda hafiz”.

    In Tehrani Farsi “hafiz” is pronounced “hafez”. And when any Tehrani says “goodbye” they’ll merge the two words and say “knodahfez”.

    But hey, I won’t hold it against you. Transliteration of foreign words, from foreign scripts is never an exact science.

    I won’t bother responding to you on this again. Wait for my video in February. Then feel the embarrassment of being proven to be an utter and total prat.

  72. damon — on 10th December, 2010 at 11:32 am  

    If anyone is unaware how utterly appalling this Dan Dare person is, just google that name along with ‘Sunny Hundal’.

    I don’t agree with Reza, who I find takes a doom and gloom Eurabia kind of view, but he doesn’t seem to go as far as that.

    I think Jai got it wrong there, and anyway, it’s a distraction. Who cares how you exactly translate words?

  73. RezaV — on 10th December, 2010 at 11:32 am  

    Sarah AB

    “But obviously if you really are an apostate, and you have genuinely had fears for your safety (I’m going on slightly hazy memories of a previous HP thread here) then it must be intensely frustrating to have your identity questioned – and you clearly have an excellent case for keeping your identity secret too.”

    Very perceptive Sarah. That’s actually the ‘nail on the head’. Together with my concerns for my relatives in Iran. They could be harassed if they were linked to me. and my wish not to upset some relatives here who are very religious indeed.

    Also, if my identity was in the public arena, how safe do you suppose I’d be when I landed in Khomeini International airport in Tehran?

    Let’s wait for the February video. I’ve made a promise and if it doesn’t materialise then I accept that I will look suspect.

    It is utterly depressing however that anyone should be forced to ‘prove’ their ethnicity in order to counter scumbag accusations from people who as a simple matter of ‘policy’ employ the ad hominem to seek to undermine arguments (and even facts) with which they ideologically disagree.

  74. AbuF — on 10th December, 2010 at 11:49 am  

    Actually, Khoda hafez means in Persian *God knows [best}* – but you would know that, would not you, RezaV, being a fluent Persian speaker?

  75. AbuF — on 10th December, 2010 at 11:50 am  

    However, you are correct that in Persian speaking countries it is used as a farewell:

    Khoda hafiz (in Tajik dialect!).

  76. Jai — on 10th December, 2010 at 11:57 am  

    I wrote it phonetically, in the way I say it and have heard it said.

    Iranians do not pronounce “Akbar” as “Akhbaar”. Neither do South Asians. Not even close. In fact, by claiming that he “wrote it phonetically”, this confirms that “RezaV” has absolutely no idea how the word is actually pronounced by people in/from that part of the world.

    Thank you Sarah AB for vindicating this point.

    Sarah AB wasn’t “vindicating this point” at all in #54. Her comment explicitly referred solely to the usage of the phrase “Allah-u-Akbar” in political protests. She said absolutely nothing with regards to the correct spelling of the phrase.

    As for “RezaV’s” bizarre lengthy rant in #62, it’s a textbook example of someone protesting a little too much to be credible.

    But then again, bizarre obsessive behaviour and gross immaturity are the hallmarks of the far-Right. “RezaV’s” ridiculous threat to “retaliate” against anonymous strangers across the internet by filming childish videos for Youtube is yet another example of this. Despite previously mentioning that he’s in his forties, it is clear that “RezaV” has psychologically never left the school playground. Not that we could expect anything better from the type of people who pulled that infantile Marmite stunt as part of the BNP’s disastrous General Election campaign, of course.

    However, as always it’s good to have yet more written evidence of the classic dysfunctional behaviour patterns afflicting the most fanatical members of the racist far-Right. All too common, and all too predictable.

  77. Jai — on 10th December, 2010 at 11:59 am  

    SarahAB and AbuF,

    If there are any residual doubts about the type of person the commenter masquerading under the alias “RezaV” actually is, here’s a diatribe he blurted out against Sunny and the other South Asians on PP last year, showing his true colours:

    So that’s your answer isn’t it? Race replacement. Only when the indigenous British become a minority can your bitter, revenge-motivated Utopia come to pass. Then you’ll get even. For colonialism. For the fact that the culture and values of your parents or grandparents weren’t the ones that created this advanced society. For the fact that this country is a far better place to live than the backward sh*t-holes most of your ancestors hail from. For all the sins of “whitey”. You’ll get even.

    The plot thinnens.

    (Source: http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/6505#comment-185893 )

  78. douglas clark — on 10th December, 2010 at 11:59 am  

    Bloody Hell!

    This speling malarky as a way to decid somebdys natonality is a bit of, is it no?

  79. cjcjc — on 10th December, 2010 at 12:06 pm  

    It would have to be the most elaborate and pointless case of online-blog-commenter-identity-fraud ever, don’t you think?!

    Though even when the video appears, no doubt Jai will condemn that as a fraud too?

  80. Sarah AB — on 10th December, 2010 at 12:15 pm  

    cjcjc – not necessarily completely pointless.

    And, at the very least, I think it should be possible to understand why Jai might have found that comment he just quoted both suspicious and offensive.

  81. cjcjc — on 10th December, 2010 at 12:23 pm  

    What do you mean by ‘suspicious’?

  82. Sarah AB — on 10th December, 2010 at 12:54 pm  

    Well – although it’s *possible* that the person who wrote that is Asian, and simply indignant about some perceived ill-judged identity politics on PP (though I’m not sure what was wrong with that thread) I think anyone seeing it out of context would assume that the writer was white with fairly extreme nationalist type views. But maybe there is some Iranian/South Asian tension I’m unaware of! (Not that that excuses the remarks)

  83. Ravi Naik — on 10th December, 2010 at 1:36 pm  

    It is utterly depressing however that anyone should be forced to ‘prove’ their ethnicity in order

    Actually, you never explained why you wrote this:

    So that’s your answer isn’t it? Race replacement. Only when the indigenous British become a minority can your bitter, revenge-motivated Utopia come to pass. Then you’ll get even. For colonialism. For the fact that the culture and values of your parents or grandparents weren’t the ones that created this advanced society. For the fact that this country is a far better place to live than the backward sh*t-holes most of your ancestors hail from. For all the sins of “whitey”. You’ll get even.

    You realize that if what you say is true – that you come from Iran – then you are a bloody hypocrite, not to mention a certified moron. If you care so much about preserving the cultural and racial purity of this land, you would have gone back to your “sh*t-hole” country, rather than marry a “pure white indigenous” and have mixed “non-indigenous” children.

    I mean, why should anyone care about what you have to say? I may disagree with BNP supporters, but at least they have a more coherent argument than yours.

  84. Rumbold — on 10th December, 2010 at 2:09 pm  

    RezaV:

    I always view these discussions as the chance to, well, have discussions. I am not rude (most of the time) when I meet people face to face, so I have no reason to behave in such a way when online. Ultimately, as you say, we are here to debate and have our own views challenged, or else raise awareness of issues.

    It would be good if you could explain the comment above though.

  85. cjcjc — on 10th December, 2010 at 2:17 pm  

    So, Sarah, you’ve joined the he’s an “imposter” camp?

    Because if Reza says who he says he is, he can’t possibly hold certain views?

    Hmmmm….

  86. RezaV — on 10th December, 2010 at 2:35 pm  

    Rumbold & Sarah AB

    The comment Jai repeatedly regurgitates was not a ‘comment’. As I have said previosly, it was a rant, made in anger and in the heat of the moment. I regret the language that I used and have apologised for it on more than one occasion.

    I even tried making an unreserved retraction and apology to Jai several months ago. I can try to find the post but as it seems that Jai is an expert on dragging up past quotes, perhaps he could oblige here.

    In my apology, I pointed out that my hackles had been raised to breaking-point by his (and Sunny’s) constant attacks on my character and accusations that I was an ‘imposter’.

    I asked him to consider how hurtful it might be to him if every one of his comments was followed by my trolling that he was a bogus Sikh.

    As for this entire issue, by the end of February my “Jai is a Twat” film shot in Iran and posted on YouTube will provide the resolution, once and for all.

    I’ll produce it in such a way that absolutely no one will be able to doubt its authenticity. And subsequently mine.

    And Jai will be shown to be the utter and complete twat he plainly is.

    As for his continued ramblings, accusations and moronic theorising, every comment now digs him deeper and deeper into the demise of his credibility and reputation.

    In February, one of us will be utterly vindicated, and the other shown to be an utterly dishonest, disreputable and disingenuous twat of obsessive compulsive proportions.

    There’s really nothing more to say on the subject.

  87. Sarah AB — on 10th December, 2010 at 2:42 pm  

    cjcjc – no, I think (82) still counts as Reza-agnostic!

  88. RezaV — on 10th December, 2010 at 3:59 pm  

    Ravi

    “Actually, you never explained why you wrote this:”

    Yes I did “explain” it to you, a full year ago:

    You: “I found your “race replacement speech” particularly odious.”

    Me: “It wasn’t a speech, it was a rant, and I regret the way I phrased it.”

    http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/6701

    But carry on bringing it up.

    Watch this space. In a few weeks, Jai will be exposed as a complete and utter twat.

    Ravi, it’s fine to hate my views. It’s fine to hate me. It’s fine to call me rude names. Or better still just ignore me.

    But anyone who values their reputation should stop making unwarranted accusations against me. Anyone with any sense will be distancing themselves from Jai’s twattery.

    Otherwise in February, the stink of that stupidity will rub off on you too.

  89. cjcjc — on 10th December, 2010 at 4:14 pm  

    Well, your comment at 82 is “agnostic” in the sense that I would be weather agnostic were I to say that it is *possible* that it will be 25 degrees in London tomorrow…!

  90. Jai — on 10th December, 2010 at 5:09 pm  

    Given “RezaV’s” ongoing rants on this thread, this is an appropriate point to re-iterate the following from my comment #76 :

    But then again, bizarre obsessive behaviour and gross immaturity are the hallmarks of the far-Right. “RezaV’s” ridiculous threat to “retaliate” against anonymous strangers across the internet by filming childish videos for Youtube is yet another example of this. Despite previously mentioning that he’s in his forties, it is clear that “RezaV” has psychologically never left the school playground. Not that we could expect anything better from the type of people who pulled that infantile Marmite stunt as part of the BNP’s disastrous General Election campaign, of course.

    However, as always it’s good to have yet more written evidence of the classic dysfunctional behaviour patterns afflicting the most fanatical members of the racist far-Right. All too common, and all too predictable.

    “RezaV” is continuing to prove my point with every disturbing comment he posts on this thread and with every immature threat he continues to make — threats which he is now also making towards everyone else who participates in this website’s discussions, as per #88.

    Furiously threatening to post pathetic videos on Youtube is the sort of behaviour one would expect from an internet-obsessed hormonal teenager with too much free time on his hands, not someone who claims to be a highly-educated professional man in his forties and married with children. I guess that when it comes to concerns for his own dignity, unfortunately that ship appears to have sailed too.

  91. cjcjc — on 10th December, 2010 at 5:17 pm  

    Accusing someone of being an “imposter” might be considered rather pathetic too…

  92. RezaV — on 10th December, 2010 at 5:30 pm  

    cjcjc

    “Accusing someone of being an “imposter” might be considered rather pathetic too…”

    I don’t actually believe that that in itself is so pathetic, if the accusation was thrown then the accuser simply ignored me. It’s the obsessive compulsive trolling after every one of my comments with the same pitiful comments that makes this character so utterly sad and contemptible.

    Yet despite my promise, putting my reputation and integrity on the line and proving him wrong in a most humiliating (and potentially hilarious) way, instead of crawling under a rock and hoping it’s forgotten, he keeps the issue alive, digging, digging, digging.

    I hope he keeps it up. The end of February is still a few weeks away and I’d hate for the issue to have lost its ‘edge’ by then.

    Out of interest cjcjc, what do you think Jai’s response to my “Jai is a Twat” video will be? Any amusing ideas on what I might say or show on it? Remember, it can’t contain anything that might be deemed as ‘political’ as that would put me at risk. But I’m trying to think of some ways to make it entertaining.

  93. cjcjc — on 10th December, 2010 at 5:37 pm  

    The fact his line of attack has changed says it all.

    I mean, how very dare you want to prove him wrong!!

  94. earwicga — on 10th December, 2010 at 5:45 pm  

    RezaV – Jai is a respected contributor to Pickled Politics, and as such your video will make no difference. Why not just continue to debate with evidence?

  95. damon — on 10th December, 2010 at 7:10 pm  

    It’s pretty obvious that Reza isn’t Dan Dare as Jai originally claimed. And obvious too that Reza is a Eurabianist. He may well have an Iranian background, but so what? We all come from somewhere.

    I’ve been told I’m a liar too a few times on different websites. There’s one guy on a Northern Ireland forum that swears I’m an American because I once spelt centre as center.

  96. RezaV — on 10th December, 2010 at 7:14 pm  

    “Jai is a respected contributor to Pickled Politics, and as such your video will make no difference.”

    Take a look at an example of what your “respected contributor” has written about me recently:

    “…“RezaV” is lying about being an “ex-Iranian ex-Muslim”, and he was comprehensively exposed about this on PP last year when he attempted this charade over a period of several months.
    He’s actually a BNP activist who usually deploys the online username “Dan Dare”, and has prolifically commented on PP using that alias along with variations such as “notDigby”, “Donald”, and most recently “Xtian” (where he pretended to be an Indian Christian) and “Kris”, amongst numerous others.
    He is also a prolific contributor to the neo-Nazi forum Stormfront along with the racist, antisemitic website Majority Rights.

    http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/9580#comment-216152

    So earwicga, the fact that I intend to produce a video that will demonstrate beyond any reasonable doubt that I am an ethnic-Iranian will make no difference?

    I suppose that would really sum-up the moral and intellectual integrity of the people concerned.

    “Why not just continue to debate with evidence?”

    That’s all I’ve ever wanted to do. Jai has always had the choice to either debate with me or ignore me. Hell, he could even have simply called me some rude names or accused me of being a ‘racist’. And I could have argued that I wasn’t. Or ignored him.

    But no. He has obsessively trolled my comments for well over a year now constantly repeating these outrageous, unwarranted and totally unacceptable attacks on my very character. Without evidence.

    Do YOU, does ANYONE think that the accusations above are acceptable? Is that what constitutes the behaviour of a “respected contributor” on Pickled Politics?

    What would it say about the character of one who makes such accusations when they are proven to be “lying” so outrageously?

    And are you earwicga, willing to defend here, the statements your “respected contributor” has made about me?

    And what do you suggest should be the appropriate response from a “respected contributor” if he were to be utterly and totally discredited in a few weeks time?

  97. earwicga — on 10th December, 2010 at 7:29 pm  

    RezaV – I think you are being ridiculous. Jai will not be ‘utterly and totally discredited’ by an online anonymous commenter who makes a video. Everybody gets attacked on online forums, some can’t cope with it and stop participating, others accept it. Grow up and stop being so defensive.

  98. RezaV — on 10th December, 2010 at 7:44 pm  

    earwicga

    Did you even read what he wrote about me? That wasn’t a simple “attack”. This person been making assertions like that for over a year. He obsessively-compulsively stalks me with this bullshit. I can give you a dozen such examples.

    And you call him a “respected contributor”?

    You tell me to “grow up”. Read what he wrote about me again and imagine someone had written it about you, and kept repeating those assertions:

    “…“RezaV” is lying about being an “ex-Iranian ex-Muslim”, and he was comprehensively exposed about this on PP last year when he attempted this charade over a period of several months.
    He’s actually a BNP activist who usually deploys the online username “Dan Dare”, and has prolifically commented on PP using that alias along with variations such as “notDigby”, “Donald”, and most recently “Xtian” (where he pretended to be an Indian Christian) and “Kris”, amongst numerous others.
    He is also a prolific contributor to the neo-Nazi forum Stormfront along with the racist, antisemitic website Majority Rights…”

    Are you really saying that it needn’t affect the reputation of a “respected contributor” when they are shown to have made outrageously false allegations like those above?

    Clearly integrity and truth aren’t necessary values for “respected contributors” on PP…

  99. earwicga — on 10th December, 2010 at 10:20 pm  

    RezaV – I think you must have missed what has been written about me on the internet in certain quarters. It aint pretty.

  100. douglas clark — on 11th December, 2010 at 1:01 am  

    Well.

    I think we should all try to respect each other.

    I have had my identity stolen and frankly I freaked out over it. It is not nice to see someone taking your identity and saying things you would find abhorrent. But that is what they did, and it took some shrewd and friendly people here to say ‘that’s not douglas clark’.

    I really, really worried that you guys out there would think it was me saying those hateful things. Fortunately for my faith in the human race a lot of you recognised the nature of the attack.

    I do not see the point on attacking Reza V on the grounds of his nationality. I happen to think he is wrong on the grounds of many of his arguments. On these grounds, and his general negativity about you and me getting along, I will argue with him till hell freezes over.

    But I will not argue with him about his identity.

    And, earwicga, I have not missed what is written about you either. I do not usually agree with you much, it comes to me as a bit of a shock when we do agree, but you are as entitled as anyone else to express yourself without being mischaracterized, which you often are.

    There are people who comment here that are just looking for a fight, a certain BNP friend of ours come to mind. If this debate is worth continuing, it is because lots of folk that read here, also learn here and need to be persuaded here, and not chucked out into the cold, cold night.

    There are some points that RezaV makes that are at least worth the discussion, there are others that I, personally, think aren’t. But it is odd in the extreme to preclude a debate on the questionable basis of phonetic spelling.

  101. douglas clark — on 11th December, 2010 at 1:20 am  

    Interesting that my fairly simple post is subject to some sort of fuck up. I can write here ’till hell freezes over and nowt goes wrong. Whenever I start to talk about identity theft, stuff happens…

  102. Joanne (africana) — on 11th December, 2010 at 1:20 am  

    I first encountered RezaV about a month back in another thread discussing Muslims.

    It was clear, in that thread, from what he was saying that he had no first hand experience of British mosques. If the RezaV name was chosen to dupe others into thinking he/she is some kind of Iranian/Kurdish homosexual secularist..then he/she isn’t making a very good job of it.

  103. Joanne (africana) — on 11th December, 2010 at 1:40 am  

    What’s the point in pretending to be an Iranaian anyway?
    Iran is hardly representative of the rest of the world,or indeed Britain. Furthermore, amongst some prominent Iranians, an agenda, such as communism or simple self promotion, is served by criticising Islam. Maryam Namazie springs to mind.

  104. RezaV — on 11th December, 2010 at 7:43 am  

    douglas

    What is happening is much more insiduous than simple rudeness and personal attacks.

    There is a dynamic going on, a dirty tactic that’s been used for decades by the far left and the various ethno-centric, nepotisitic ‘black’ organisations that muddle equality of opportunity with equality of outcome by force, intimidation and yes, racism.

    These are people driven by hatred, envy and resentment. They’ve been brought up with it.

    They are anti-democratic. They will sink to any depth to drown out views with which they don’t agree.

    These are the people who for decades have stymied any debate on immigration or multiculturalism with violence and intimidation. Or by accusing people of being “racist!”

    People like Jai don’t attack my arguments because they know that it would be problematic. I have a lot of facts on my side and they have little on theirs. Only dogma. I’m not so arrogant to think that I’m totaly right, and I know that I make some points inelegantly and provocitively. But I do have a valid and intellectually sound point of view that I am ready to debate with hard evidence and believe my view is shared by a great many people.

    People like Jai will seek to censor that view point. In an online debate my voice cannot be drowned out by a mob of left-wing goons shouting “racist” etc. I can’t be physically abused and intimidated. Yes, on most left-wing blogs, dissenting viewpoints are simply deleted. Here however, these people employ the sinister tactic of attempted character assasination with damned lies. If Jai can paint me as a white supermascist Nazi ‘imposter’ then the idea is that my arguments will be discredited. I hope that people have intellegence enough to form their own opinions.

    This tactic cannot be allowed to succeed.

    I’m out of the country now for 1 week, but I’ve had some thoughts on my “Jai is a Twat” video that I’ll shoot in Iran. Jai will no doubt claim that the video is part of the same nefarious ‘far-right plot’ to challenge received wisdom and spread ideological heresy on left-wing blogs.

    So I’m going to put down a couple of things here I’ll be able to refer back to. The video will contain a copy of the Guardian (ugh!) that I’ll buy on the day of my flight. I’ll ensure that a couple of scenes show my olive-skinned hand giving a ‘finger’ with Tehran in the background. I will use printed sheets with “Jai you are an utter twat” printed on them with scenes of Tehran in the background. I will have to yhink of a way of disguising or muting my voice as my anonimity is essential. But I’m determined to get a couple of random Tehranis to say, on camera, “Jai, you are an utter Twat”.

  105. Sarah AB — on 11th December, 2010 at 8:32 am  

    I don’t recognize Pickled Politics or Jai from your bizarre opening remarks Reza. It’s not a PP article, but this piece by Sunny Hundal indicates how off the mark your comments are.

    http://liberalconspiracy.org/2010/12/06/do-left-wing-men-always-sell-out-women-in-the-end/

    Sorry, but one doesn’t have to be part of some sinister far left conspiracy to have harboured doubts about your identity. Clearly it must be very irritating to have one’s identity questioned, and on that basis you could accuse Jai of being rude or jumping to conclusions maybe – but to say he is part of some ‘insidious’ race based conspiracy is unfair.

  106. cjcjc — on 11th December, 2010 at 10:15 am  

    “Sorry, but one doesn’t have to be part of some sinister far left conspiracy to have harboured doubts about your identity.”

    Perhaps not.
    But one does have to be a little, what shall we say, blinkered?
    I mean, how *very dare* an ethnic Iranian (Persian?) hold Reza’s opinions?
    He must therefore be….a BNP activist!
    Get a grip.

    At least the video will sort the identity issue out.
    Then we can return to the substance.

  107. douglas clark — on 11th December, 2010 at 10:17 am  

    Om the other hand, I think it was just me messing up :-(

  108. AbuF — on 11th December, 2010 at 10:52 am  

    On the other hand…

    It is clear that this person has next-to-no knowledge of Arabic and has precious little of Persian, either.

    Equally, I am appalled to learn that people cannot understand the sort of Persian supremacist bullshit that this person is playing with…

    The connection between the Shah-e Aryan supremacist crap which this individual expresses and European fascism is well known and well documented.

    It may well be an Iranian – but not one who you or I would with sit down to eat.

    Khalas. {as they say in Arabic}

    AF

  109. AbuF — on 11th December, 2010 at 11:46 am  

    but it is odd in the extreme to preclude a debate on the questionable basis of phonetic spelling.,

    Oh, look – a sockpuppet. Transliteration is not “phonetic spelling”…

  110. AbuF — on 11th December, 2010 at 11:48 am  

    What is more, he (RezaV) cannot even show the proper form (under any scheme of transliteration) of Allah akhbar in Persian, Arabic or any other language.

    You may have missed this: HIS TRANSLATION of the same is WRONG.

    Not something one would expect from a Persian speaker – and to claim that it was Arabic is clearly WRONG.

    A fraud – in all – a fraud.

  111. douglas clark — on 11th December, 2010 at 12:26 pm  

    AbuF,

    On a thread where I am commenting on identity theft you accuse me of being a sock puppet?

    That takes chutzpah.

  112. Kisan — on 11th December, 2010 at 12:51 pm  

    #112, I think badtameezi is probably the term for AbuF’s modus operandi.

    Perhaps a term of Farsi origin he may be familiar with.

  113. Ravi Naik — on 11th December, 2010 at 1:08 pm  

    These are the people who for decades have stymied any debate on immigration or multiculturalism with violence and intimidation. Or by accusing people of being “racist!” People like Jai don’t attack my arguments because they know that it would be problematic. … If Jai can paint me as a white supermascist Nazi ‘imposter’ then the idea is that my arguments will be discredited. I hope that people have intellegence enough to form their own opinions.

    Let me stop you here. This is something you wrote:

    So that’s your answer isn’t it? Race replacement. Only when the indigenous British become a minority can your bitter, revenge-motivated Utopia come to pass. Then you’ll get even. For colonialism. For the fact that the culture and values of your parents or grandparents weren’t the ones that created this advanced society. For the fact that this country is a far better place to live than the backward sh*t-holes most of your ancestors hail from. For all the sins of “whitey”. You’ll get even.

    Regardless of your ethnicity, there is absolutely no doubt of the following:
    (1) You engaged in racist, white supremacist rhetoric. Term by term, it is a replica of what white supremacists in Stormfront say about us.
    (2) While you say it is very difficult for a Muslim to be moderate, you yourself cannot be considered as a moderate by any definition. By all accounts, and based on your words, you are an extremist. Live with that.
    (3) Why would a non-European immigrant, marrying a white and having mixed children (all your admissions) be ranting about white supremacy and channel white supremacist delusions like “race replacement”? You never explained this.
    (4) There is another very odd account where you talk about your family in Iran, as being backward, which I found to be offensive and stereotypical. You said you would be against them immigrating to this country.
    (5) Also note in your rant, you said “your parents or grandparents/your ancestors” did not create this advanced society – you never said “our”, as it would apply to you as well. This indicates you do not consider yourself as an immigrant, but as indigenous.

    So Jai is giving you the benefit of the doubt by saying you are an imposter. Because the alternative, that you are who you say you are, is much worse. It means you suffer from a disturbing case of cognitive dissonance.

  114. Kisan — on 11th December, 2010 at 1:20 pm  

    Only when the indigenous British become a minority can your bitter, revenge-motivated Utopia come to pass.

    If it wasn’t that Pickled Politics is basically preaching this kind of thing when Sunny writes:

    http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/8489
    I think there can only be one solution: have more babies. Have millions of black, brown and mixed-race babies. There comes a point when that demographic is so big that pissing them off means that the backlash is too high

    That Pickled Politics pushes some stuff that is similar to the RezaV rant in substance is certainly true. Personally I wouldn’t go as far as RezaV in his quoted rant but I’d agree with a lot of it.

    Living in South Asia for a long time it is a shithole because of backward religious attitudes and a represssive hell hole to be escaped and I know plenty of Indians who agree with that.

    I’d suggest the writers of Pickled Politics go and try living their lifestyles in Pakistan, India or Bangladesh and see if they don’t adjust their views a bit.

  115. Kisan — on 11th December, 2010 at 2:04 pm  

    #115,
    Nah dimwit – its usually for those with claims of one race being superior to other races

    I’m yet to read RezaV make such claim. Can you please reproduce it where he says it?

    I see him making the claim of modern Britain or the West being more advanced than South Asian or Islamic countries (based on culture on values)but making the claim of one races superiority to another based on innate racial characteristics? Can we see the quote?

    I mean here we have Islamic Republic of Iran executing adulterers and related to this post the mass murder of homosexuals for their homosexuality.

    Isn’t modern Western morality superior (based on culture or values)? Or does to say that make you a white supremacist of the stormfront garden variety?

  116. Sunny — on 11th December, 2010 at 2:31 pm  

    RezaV the white supremacist and BNP symmpathiser has been banned. But I’m going to leave his posts here as evidence of his deep-seated racism.

    Feel free to make the videos “exposing” us – I don’t really care. Nutjobs on the internet are dime a dozen. RezaV can join their ranks. Perhaps he can send them to the BNP for posting them too.

  117. damon — on 11th December, 2010 at 4:15 pm  

    There wasn’t any point talking to Reza, as he was so extreme. The thing that intrigues me more about people with the ‘Eurabian’ idea is how people opposed to their views handle them. Especially about the parts of their arguments that might have some truth.
    Afghanistan has become so degraded by years of poverty and war that much is the population is quite screwed up. When they come to Britain or Europe hopefully some of their rough edges will be rounded off.
    Someone like Reza would say that they probably wouldn’t though, and that the host society is harmed by that.
    I don’t think it’s black and white, and that’s why I was annoyed at the Dublin Imam preaching Zionist conspiracy theories in the mosque earlier this year, to a congregation who were made up of largely new immigrants … many having been asylum seekers in the first place.

  118. Arif — on 11th December, 2010 at 4:51 pm  

    On the original post, I think it is important that we think through how we (whoever we are!) can promote the safety and human rights of nonviolent sexual and religious minorities in Iraq.

    In situations of civil war, and violence by non-state actors, NGO lobbying is, I believe, usually a lot less effective and even more indirect.

    In the most simple terms, if we think about what we can lobby States to do, it is clearly to offer refuge to minorities fleeing persecution. I think it has to go a step further given how States routinely create barriers to asylum claims – they need to be lobbied to provide sanctuary at embassies and fast track visas. They have to support UNHCR to set up refuges in country and in Syria, Jordan etc where Iraqi people can then gain asylum overseas if necessary.

    The more complex work in terms of delegitimising these human rights abuses or of reducing the tensions which make people resort to and then cling to them as aspects of their own identity requires patient peace work. Peace workers themselves are targets for kidnapping and worse, but there is little effective alternative I can see. Self righteous condemnations from afar often merely make the situation worse and from nearby merely puts those who want to make a difference in danger or on the margins.

    So I see my responsibilities as to support the peacewokers (or become one) and support the rights of refugees. And to avoid getting into a dynamic of mere verbal abuse or counter-violence.

    Any better ideas? How can the Iraqi Government help or be helped given its own make-up, fragility, legitimacy deficits and very different priorities? Can its membership of any important aid, trade or diplomatic asociations be made conditional on human rights?

  119. damon — on 12th December, 2010 at 1:16 am  

    Arif. So more asylum for at risk minorities? I suggested the same thing myself a few posts back for gay Iraqis. It’s been happpening anyway with huge numbers of Christians leaving the country.

    Sweden has taken in very large numbers, but seems to be toughening up and starting to refuse and deport Iraqis now.

    Iraqi asylum seekers struggle to survive in Sweden

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/8911904.stm

    So is it that kind of move by Sweden that you think people in Europe should be working against, and that it is more, not less asylum that should be being offered to Iraqis?
    Short of joining some refugee rights campaign, I don’t think that we in the west can do much about anything in Iraq. It’s their country, and they clearly resented any western interference in running the place.

    And if people are to be offered asylum in new countries, and then just dumped out in suburban housing estates, that can lead to it’s own problems in the new country.

  120. AbuF — on 12th December, 2010 at 3:04 am  

    Douglas

    I was not accusing *you* of being anything (other than someone who has not read carefully enough the origin al post to which you object).

    regards

    AF

  121. AbuF — on 12th December, 2010 at 3:07 am  

    Evil or very bad?

    I do not think so, Kisan.

  122. AbuF — on 12th December, 2010 at 3:10 am  

    And the horse laughed…

  123. AbuF — on 12th December, 2010 at 3:11 am  

    I think that some people ought to realise that Iran has a rather replete history of Iranians who think they are racially superior to those people unfortunate enough to be non-Iranians…

  124. good — on 12th December, 2010 at 3:52 am  

    Sunny

    RezaV the white supremacist and BNP symmpathiser has been banned. But I’m going to leave his posts here as evidence of his deep-seated racism.

    Good move and maybe you could do likewise with Harith given his vicious attack on PP elsewhere http://www.spittoon.org/archives/8157

    Likewise the vicious personal attacks on earcwiga at Spittoon.
    http://www.spittoon.org/archives/8149

    Yet Spitooners like Abu Faris are allowed to post here!

  125. Arif — on 12th December, 2010 at 9:09 pm  

    Damon, yes I think that the west, and the east and everywhere else have an established responsibility to give asylum to those fleeing persecution. I completely agree with your post #52.

    The situation of religious minorities and gay people in Iraq is exactly the sort of situation for which refugee status was created. The fear of persecution is well founded.

    How we deal with refugees is clearly worth thinking about. One idea is that every country pay into the UNHCR (according to their GNP) so that the UN takes responsibility for identifying refugees, providing short term maintenance and security and organising resettlement. Problems with this as well, I know, but it is a step to recognising a global responsibility for human rights. I really think the weakness of the UN system set up after WWII has to be addressed if it is ever going to be able to fulfil its mandate.

    As you say, as long as we buy into a system of sovereign nation states, there doesn’t seem to be much that can be done about Iraq’s Government’s apathy or complicity with such abuses. But there may be some bilateral levers that could be tried (related to aid, trade and diplomacy).

  126. AbuF — on 13th December, 2010 at 5:58 am  

    Oh, look, it’s Munir… aka “good”.

  127. Bartholomew — on 15th December, 2010 at 2:24 pm  

    “RezaV the white supremacist and BNP symmpathiser has been banned.”

    That is the sort of show-trial mentality that does a place like this harm.

    It is one thing to ban him for being bolshy – though I can’t see that he is any more troublesome than a number of ‘respected’ contributors here. But it is quite another to call him on no personal evidence whatsoever a BNP sympathiser and white supremacist, and especially to then deny him the right of reply. Why don’t you throw in kiddie-fiddler and arsonist for good measure? He won’t be able to stop you saying that now either. It’s plain old mud-throwing slander.

    I think you should reconsider the ban. You would be upholding real liberal values by overturning it.

  128. Bartholomew — on 15th December, 2010 at 2:27 pm  

    Can Jai please explain the examples I refer to in #58 which appear to me to contradict his claims about spelling.

    Thanks.

  129. Kisan — on 15th December, 2010 at 2:58 pm  

    #121, I think your Arabic and English beats your Farsi.

    It’s more the sense of insolent bad behaviour closer to chutzpah in the sense of making an untrue claim based on shoddy foundations about someone in a rude manner.

  130. fred — on 16th December, 2010 at 4:58 pm  
  131. Jai — on 16th December, 2010 at 6:56 pm  

    Can Jai please explain the examples I refer to in #58 which appear to me to contradict his claims about spelling.

    On the contrary. The English translation of the Persian/Farsi word “akhbaar” in all three of the URL links in #58 is “news”; “akhbaar” also has exactly the same pronunciation & meaning in Urdu and other South Asian languages heavily influenced by Persian/Farsi.

    However, “Akbar”, as per the conventional English spelling amongst Iranians and South Asians, literally means “Great” (especially in terms of the core Islamic phrase “Allah-o-Akbar”). Furthermore, both Iranians and South Asians pronounce it very differently to the word “akhbaar”.

    Therefore, the examples in #58 do not contradict my previous assertions; in fact, they prove my point.

  132. douglas clark — on 16th December, 2010 at 7:50 pm  

    AbuF @ 120,

    I was not accusing *you* of being anything (other than someone who has not read carefully enough the origin al post to which you object).

    regards

    AF

    I take it you retract your post @ 109, where you quite clearly said I was a sock puppet? And if you are who I suspect you are, you ought to know me better than that. If not, you are assuming too much.

    There is little or nothing to take care of here. If Sunny says the guy’s banned, then the guy is banned. Just don’t pretend I am a sock puppet as you clearly did, nor pretend that I can’t follow a thread. It is all very well for someone whose name – AbuF – appears out of the blue and says stuff as if they had a history here.

    You don’t, and people I respect do.

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