Taking on the BNP in Local Elections (pt 1)


by Sunny
19th April, 2007 at 6:09 pm    

I’ll be running a regular series of information posts and articles on the BNP and their tactics in advance of the upcoming Local Elections in May. Yes, there are local elections happening next month in case you weren’t quite aware.

The racist party is funding around 655 candidates in this year’s Local Elections (Guardian), compared to 363 last year and just 221 in 2004. The Times has published an interview with Nick Griffin today, which I still found a bit nauseatingly rosy.

Blink have published a full list of BNP candidates contesting seats. The Methodist, United Reform and Baptist Union Churches have published a briefing document on racism and extremism on the elections. The Methodist Church has also produced guidelines with suggestions on how churches can respond to extremist political parties.
Brett at Harry’s Place points out how not voting helps the BNP.


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  1. Radical Muslim :: The Rise of the Far Right in Europe :: April :: 2007

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  2. Pickled Politics » A councillor’s view on tackling the BNP

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  1. Roger — on 19th April, 2007 at 6:40 pm  

    In England at least the BNP, UKIP etc and the Greens are about the only people standing for election on political grounds; Labour, Conservative, Lib-Dem are all so close to one another in local government policies and attitudes and local governmenat authorities have so little power that not many people except those with extreme or eccentric views are likely to vote at all.

  2. Don — on 19th April, 2007 at 7:33 pm  

    That’s a pretty broad generalisation, Roger. You may be right that in terms of local government the main parties are all within a relatively narrow spectrum, but when it comes to the nuts & bolts of running your own town, very few people want to experiment with the further reaches.

    It is not just voter apathy that helps the BNP, the main parties are having serious trouble finding candidates, so that a hell of a lot of seats are going unopposed to whoever can be fashed to stand. In my own area Labour have thrown in the towel, contesting only 3 out of 40-odd seats. That leaves the LibDems and the Tories to thrash it out with a handful of eccentrics and single-issue indies. No BNP, thank God, but not a healthy situation.

    We need more picklers in elected posts.

  3. Halima — on 19th April, 2007 at 10:42 pm  

    Well it will be interesting to see how Bethnal Green and Bow does – last time RESPECT might’ve got in on the protest vote, this time who knows…

    In Barking last time the BNP won 8 out of the 9 seats they contested.

    It’s not just voter apathy that’s fuelling the BNP – it’s as the Guardian article points out – the BNP is banking on its anti-Muslim campaign. It’s an interesting sign that the BNP has stopped campaining on race and now campaigns against Muslims.

    Halima

  4. ZinZin — on 19th April, 2007 at 10:53 pm  

    We need more picklers in elected posts.

    Careful what you wish for it might come true.

  5. Clairwil — on 19th April, 2007 at 11:59 pm  

    The link above doesn’t give a full list of BNP candidates
    standing in Scotland. For those that are interested here are the tartan knuckledraggers:

    Central Scotland

    1 Nicholla Ritchie
    2 William Morgan
    3 John Robertson
    4 Richard Hamilton

    Glasgow

    1 Kenny Smith
    2 Walter Hamilton
    3 Charlie Baillie
    4 Billy McLachlan

    Highlands & Islands

    1 Scott McLean
    2 Roger Robertson
    3 Andrew McBride
    4 Matt Tait

    Lothians

    1 Ian Dawson
    2 Sadie Graham
    3 Stephen Fyfe
    4 Tim Rait

    Mid Scotland & Fife

    1 Steve Blake
    2 Colin Cox
    3 Michaela MacKenzie
    4 James McPherson

    North East Scotland

    1 Gary Raikes
    2 John Robertson
    3 Steven Thomson
    4 Stuart McKay

    South of Scotland

    1 Thomas Sweeten
    2 Martin Clark
    3 Jennie Noble
    4 Michael Bell

    West of Scotland

    1 David Kerr
    2 David Sloss
    3 Winifred Scott
    4 Kevin Scott

  6. douglas clark — on 20th April, 2007 at 12:15 am  

    Clairwill,

    Thanks for doing the work, I thought only seven, that can’t be right.

  7. Anas — on 20th April, 2007 at 12:21 am  

    Central Scotland

    1 Nicholla Ritchie
    2 William Morgan
    3 John Robertson
    4 Richard Hamilton

    Glasgow

    1 Kenny Smith
    2 Walter Hamilton
    3 Charlie Baillie
    4 Billy McLachlan

    Highlands & Islands

    1 Scott McLean
    2 Roger Robertson
    3 Andrew McBride
    4 Matt Tait

    Lothians

    1 Ian Dawson
    2 Sadie Graham
    3 Stephen Fyfe
    4 Tim Rait

    Mid Scotland & Fife

    1 Steve Blake
    2 Colin Cox
    3 Michaela MacKenzie
    4 James McPherson

    North East Scotland

    1 Gary Raikes
    2 John Robertson
    3 Steven Thomson
    4 Stuart McKay

    South of Scotland

    1 Thomas Sweeten
    2 Martin Clark
    3 Jennie Noble
    4 Michael Bell

    West of Scotland

    1 David Kerr
    2 David Sloss
    3 Winifred Scott
    4 Kevin Scott

    Cunts.

  8. Clairwil — on 20th April, 2007 at 12:24 am  

    Anas,
    ‘cunts’ pretty much sums it up.

    Incidentally I remember Walter Hamilton from the last election. He describes himself as a businessman. Any got idea what it is he actually does?

  9. poons — on 20th April, 2007 at 2:09 am  

    Can anyone help me scratch this itch?

    http://howlingspoons.blogspot.com/2007/04/albert-who-fck-is-albert.html

    Relevant link spamming (just in case Iain Dale is watching) ;-#0

  10. douglas clark — on 20th April, 2007 at 2:45 am  

    Anas,

    Yes.

  11. Kulvinder — on 20th April, 2007 at 6:31 am  

    What the hell is the point in listing their names?

  12. Kulvinder — on 20th April, 2007 at 6:33 am  

    nb you lot are all pretty much quasi-dictatorial arseholes from my pov. I don’t call you names :)

  13. Titus Aduxass — on 20th April, 2007 at 6:59 am  

    ‘In 1974, former Algerian President Houari Boumedienne warned Europe in a speech at the UN : “One day, millions of men will leave the Southern Hemisphere to go to the Northern Hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends. Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory.”

    “Soon we will take power in this country. Those who criticize us now, will regret it. They will have to serve us. Prepare, for the hour is near.” — Belgium-based imam in 1994′.

    With comments like these in the public domaine, is it any wonder the BNP seem a viable alternative to the present lot of politicos. With NL fleecing the pension funds of the working class, and the Tories led by hapless Bullingdon Boys pretendinhg to ‘understand’ what makes for social cohesion amongst the ‘lower order’, something has to fill the void.

  14. G. Tingey — on 20th April, 2007 at 8:04 am  

    And, of course, islam IS a real threat – or rather the leaders of some sections of islam, and the “recital” if taken literally, pose a threat.

    If you don’t believe a pinkie like me, try asking a Sikh!

    Going back to the original comment(!)
    Not voting always helps the extremists – that’s how Chirac got to be French president, after all.
    And when BNP won in Tower Hamlets a few years back, it was a by-election…
    Total ward population – approx:30-35 000.
    Turn-out at election – approx: 9 – 11%
    Total number voting – approx: 3500.
    Result – approx, again …
    BNP 1200
    Lab 1120
    LibDem 1050

    And that’s how the BNP win seats, folks.

  15. Kulvinder — on 20th April, 2007 at 8:08 am  

    If you don’t believe a pinkie like me, try asking a Sikh!

    I asked myself, i said is G.Tingey talking out of his arse, and lo! the answer was yes.

  16. Rumbold — on 20th April, 2007 at 9:25 am  

    The BNP always seem a danger around election time, then after getting elected they prvove how useless they are.

    From Soverytired at Harry’s Place:

    “We know from experience that BNP councillors would never be co-ordinated or competent enough to actually do anything. The few who aren’t in jail and actually bother to turn up for council meetings will all vote against each other anyway because they’ve got no idea what’s going on.”

  17. Taj — on 20th April, 2007 at 10:22 am  

    Had a look at the list of candidates. Rather strangely, in Great Horton in Bradford, one “Sharif Abdel Gawad” is standing for the BNP. Seems a bit of an odd one.

  18. sonia — on 20th April, 2007 at 10:55 am  

    for a list of councils running elections this May see here

    zinzin – 4 -yeah! i agree..dunno..some of the people round here in elected posts? that would be scary :-)

  19. sonia — on 20th April, 2007 at 11:00 am  

    No london councils are having elections this time –> ( halima – no. 3)

  20. sonia — on 20th April, 2007 at 11:03 am  

    2. don – “It is not just voter apathy that helps the BNP, the main parties are having serious trouble finding candidates, so that a hell of a lot of seats are going unopposed to whoever can be fashed to stand.”

    yeah good point.

  21. Roger — on 20th April, 2007 at 11:05 am  

    http://politics.guardian.co.uk/otherparties/story/0,,1749556,00.html
    Sharif Abdel Gawad is a “totally assimilated Greek Armenian”, it seems. Wasn’t there a muslim BNP candidate last time around? Is he standing again?

  22. Kismet Hardy — on 20th April, 2007 at 11:21 am  

    National Front Rally taking place in Surrey Quays/Bermondsey, South East London tomorrow (21st April)

    Can someone let YRE or SHARP know so they can do that glorious trick of convincing police they’re part of the racist march then infiltrate and kick the shit out of the NF?

  23. Anas — on 20th April, 2007 at 12:39 pm  

    huh? I thought the imperialists at HP would have found common anti-Muslim cause with the BNP?

  24. Sunny — on 20th April, 2007 at 1:17 pm  

    And, of course, islam IS a real threat – or rather the leaders of some sections of islam, and the “recital” if taken literally, pose a threat.

    If you want to take violent religious literal interpretations seriously, especially those of anonymous imams and unheard of politicians, then anyone (including Christians) pose a threat to ‘the free world’. Have you guys forgotten the apocalyptic ideas that most Christian evangelical leaders in America hold?

    Maybe we can start justifying Muslim extremists on the basis of that threat? Chicken and egg?

  25. Naxal 1849 — on 20th April, 2007 at 1:29 pm  

    For all their obsession with Islam, the BNP are extremely similar in ideological terms to fundamentalist Islamic groups (such as Hizb-ut-ariah).

    They both:

    Hate Jews
    Want to bring back capital punishment
    Have dubious ideas on the role of women in public life
    Base their philosophy on ‘my race/religion is the best, all other races/religions are crap’
    Have a violent past.

  26. Soso — on 20th April, 2007 at 3:49 pm  

    The BNP’s rise is just a symptom of neglect. Lower-class white Britians make up 80% of the population, and yet they’ve really no one to represent them.

    Everything revolves around identity politics, visible minorities and religious minorities.

    There’s no growth in real wages, there are no tax reductions ( ‘cept if you’re wealthy) and the cost of affordable housing, in part because of the large influx if immigrants, is becomming out of reach for many.

    Britian, and most other western countries, are now treated and managed as though they were nothing more than some abstract economic equation. People are no longer citizens, just consumers; the whole country is judged, not according to its freedoms, its human rights record or its level of democracy ( the content of its character), but rather merely on the availability of vulgar investment opportunities (the colour of its money).

    The movers and shakers, be they academic, political or economimc, have but one phrase on their lips; “what’s in it for ME”.

  27. Naxal 1849 — on 20th April, 2007 at 3:53 pm  

    “cost of affordable housing, in part because of the large influx if immigrants,”

    Pray tell how you came to this conclusion.

    “Britian, and most other western countries, are now treated and managed as though they were nothing more than some abstract economic equation. People are no longer citizens, just consumers; the whole country is judged, not according to its freedoms, its human rights record or its level of democracy ( the content of its character), but rather merely on the availability of vulgar investment opportunities (the colour of its money).”

    Welcome to capitalism. It’s been around since the eighteenth century.

  28. sonia — on 20th April, 2007 at 4:04 pm  

    i think its time for the weekend open thread! so we can talk about aishwarya’s wedding to whats his face.

  29. Roger — on 20th April, 2007 at 4:10 pm  

    “cost of affordable housing, in part because of the large influx if immigrants,”
    Because of three kinds of immigrant: those who are wealthy already or will be well-paid for their skills and so can outspend most of the native people on accomodation; those who are single, intent on earning as much money as possible in as short a time as possible, are willing to work for less money and are willing to share accomodation at a higher density than the local people and so, collectively, can outspend them and drive down local earnings; and refugees who compete with the poorer local people for the limited amount of community housing and are seen as queue-jumping or gaining unearned benefits. In different ways all compete for affordable housing and reduce the amount available.

  30. Naxal 1849 — on 20th April, 2007 at 4:17 pm  

    Roger

    Let me dissect your pathetic ‘argument’:

    “those who are wealthy already or will be well-paid for their skills and so can outspend most of the native people on accomodation”

    If they are wealthy already they won’t be going for your run-of-the-mill two bedroom house (which falls into the bracket of ‘affordable housing’), they would live in the leafy suburbs. As for skills, don’t be so stupid; the vast majority of immigrants are employed in menial work – hardly well paid.

    “those who are single, intent on earning as much money as possible in as short a time as possible, are willing to work for less money and are willing to share accomodation at a higher density than the local people and so”

    These people are renting, not buying up affordable housing.

    “and refugees who compete with the poorer local people for the limited amount of community housing and are seen as queue-jumping or gaining unearned benefits.”

    Indeed, and why are there refugees pouring out of places like Iraq and Afghanistan I wonder?….

  31. Chairwoman — on 20th April, 2007 at 4:38 pm  

    “those who are single, intent on earning as much money as possible in as short a time as possible, are willing to work for less money and are willing to share accomodation at a higher density than the local people and so

    These people are renting, not buying up affordable housing.”

    Which, I presume, would still make affordable housing unavailable to poorer local people of all ethnicities.

  32. Anas — on 20th April, 2007 at 5:47 pm  

    The BNP’s rise is just a symptom of neglect. Lower-class white Britians make up 80% of the population, and yet they’ve really no one to represent them.

    In no way does that excuse indulging in the politics of racism and bigotry.

  33. Chairwoman — on 20th April, 2007 at 6:05 pm  

    Anas – Exactly.

  34. ZinZin — on 20th April, 2007 at 6:09 pm  

    Anas point 32 agreed.

    The attack on HP is undeserved. Although they allow some appalling anti-islamic sentiments to be expressed in the comments there recent posts on Islam can hardly be considered islamophobic. Respect is islamophobic.

    That BNP newspaper is it printed in Saudi Arabia?

  35. Don — on 20th April, 2007 at 6:15 pm  

    ‘Lower-class white Britians make up 80% of the population’

    The non-white population being, what, 8 or 9%? So the middle and upper classes are a mere 11% of the population. Unless you have a really individual system of classification I think you’ll find 25% in social categories D & E is nearer the mark.

  36. Don — on 20th April, 2007 at 6:19 pm  

    Anas,

    I think it was Billy Bragg who, when told that such & such was the reason people voted BNP, replied, ‘No, people vote BNP because they’re racist bastards.’

    More or less covers it.

  37. Sid Love — on 20th April, 2007 at 6:22 pm  

    I was 21 years when I wrote this song
    I’m 22 now and I hate Billy Bragg

  38. Don — on 20th April, 2007 at 6:29 pm  

    Sid,

    Seriously? Why?

  39. Sid Love — on 20th April, 2007 at 6:30 pm  

    Nah, course I don’t.

  40. Don — on 20th April, 2007 at 6:33 pm  

    phew.

  41. El Cid — on 20th April, 2007 at 6:45 pm  

    Soso, I don’t think you were necessarily making excuses for people voting BNP, or were you? Or are you simply looking to counter identity politics with yet more identity politics. I won’t rush to judgement.
    I think some of your analysis is pretty insightful, but much of it cuts across race. I detect a critique of laissez faire economics and political correctness, and a nostalgic yearning for collective purpose. But I’m at a loss to understand what it is YOU think would make the world a better place.

  42. El Cid — on 20th April, 2007 at 6:46 pm  

    Well you can’t exactly dance to Billy Bragg, now can you?

  43. Soso — on 20th April, 2007 at 7:10 pm  

    In no way does that excuse indulging in the politics of racism and bigotry.

    Likewise, Annas, comments such as yours are no help in determining just why these parties are gaining ground.

    It isn’t enough anymore to cavalierly dismiss the Far Right with labels of “racist” and “bigot”.

    The BNP’s leadership is no doubt marbled with racism, much as a bad cut of beef is marbled with unhealthy fat.

    That said, their appeal lies as much in their attention to economic grievances as it does in their propensity to demonise foreigners.

    The standard taunts of rascist and bigot do nothing to counter issues and arguments put forward by the BNP. I’d even say the terms are tarnished by over-use and are going the way of “groovy” or “swell”.

    I’m fleunt in french and have been following the presidentials across the channel. In heavy immigrant areas, areas with large Muslim populations, LePen is expected to do much better than white, good-thinking leftists could ever have imagined .

    As unthinkable as it may seem, SOME rank and file Muslims, those who came by their citizenship through honest means, and who are in France to work and live peacefully, are embracing LePen for reasons similar to those behind the large anti-Islamist demos in both Pakistan and Turkey this week. The want the fundies reined-in and they know that Chirac-type politicians don’t have the balls to do it.

    The FN is, in fact, running Arab/Muslim candidates. They are fed up with the disorder, the chaos and the endless boatloads of illegals wandering about, forced to engage in acts of petty crime just to survive. They are steaming-mad at traditional socialists/traditional conservatives because of their inability and unwillingness to tackle the crime and to ensure the rule of civil law.

    So you see, it’s become much more complicated than just “racist” and “bigot”; on certain levels it’s the whole systeme that is collapsing.

  44. Anas — on 21st April, 2007 at 12:55 am  

    Likewise, Annas, comments such as yours are no help in determining just why these parties are gaining ground.

    Pay attention, it’s spelled A-n-a-s

    It isn’t enough anymore to cavalierly dismiss the Far Right with labels of “racist” and “bigot”.

    Sure it is.

  45. Clairwil — on 21st April, 2007 at 1:05 am  

    #11 Kulvinder

    So you can have lots of fun googling the names and write rude stuff about their weird hobbies.

    http://clairwil.blogspot.com/2007/04/oh-lordy-here-come-nazis.html

  46. Roger — on 21st April, 2007 at 10:06 am  

    “If they are wealthy already they won’t be going for your run-of-the-mill two bedroom house (which falls into the bracket of ‘affordable housing’), they would live in the leafy suburbs.”
    However, people who would otherwise be in “the leafy suburbs” cannot afford to live there and are willing to pay more for run-of-the-mill housing. This has a ratchet effect all the way down. Compare the prices of houses as a proportion of earnings in London now with twenty five or fifty years ago.
    “As for skills, don’t be so stupid; the vast majority of immigrants are employed in menial work – hardly well paid.”
    Skilled or not, by accepting still lower wages they are driving down wages. Whether something is true is less important than whether it is believed where prejudices are concerned and it is a widespread belief- true or not- that Eastern European building workers, many of whom are skilled, are willing to accept terms of employment inferior to those locally accepted.

    “These people are renting, not buying up affordable housing.”
    So? They drive up rents; by making it more profitable to buy property to rent they drive up the prices of houses and the amount of money landlords are willing to accept.

    “Indeed, and why are there refugees pouring out of places like Iraq and Afghanistan I wonder?”
    …and Iran and Sudan and Somalia and Congo and Zimbabwe…?
    As far as people who live in an area are concerned, they have a local effect and the behaviour and effects of international government activity is irrelevant. “Local homes for local people.” is the way many people regard community housing in the areas they live in. The fact that there is much less community housing than there used to be makes it more desirable and makes people much more concerned if it is apparently unjustly allocated.

  47. Roger — on 21st April, 2007 at 10:13 am  

    “I think it was Billy Bragg who, when told that such & such was the reason people voted BNP, replied, ‘No, people vote BNP because they’re racist bastards.’

    More or less covers it.”

    Then why are there so many more racist bastards now than there were, Don? It’s useful to find out why people become racist bastards so as to stop others doing so, even if you believe that “Once a racist bastard always a racist bastard” and don’t bother with them. The fact that the panic-mongers have managed to turn debate on the various topics of immigration [legal or illegal], refugees, race and religion into a debate based entirely on the question of just how racist and just how bastardly government and local policies ought to be means that it matters.

  48. Roger — on 21st April, 2007 at 10:20 am  

    “It isn’t enough anymore to cavalierly dismiss the Far Right with labels of “racist” and “bigot”.

    Sure it is.”

    If you want to think what a truly warm and wonderful human being you are and how contemptible others are, Anas, then yes, sure it is.
    If you want to reduce the appeal of racism it’s as well to find out why it’s increasing and argue and fight against it. Racists have managed to impose their terms and definitions on all racial/national debates about working-class immigration over the last few decades, so they have been remarkably successful in terms of policies even if they’ve failed in their personal political aspirations.

  49. The iLL Man — on 21st April, 2007 at 4:27 pm  

    The Billy Bragg quote. How long ago was that?

    The problem here is that people vote BNP for a few reasons. Some do it because, yes, they are racial supremecists, fantacists and bigots. Others do it because they feel disenfranchised, disconnected and have run out of what they consider to be plausable options on their voting form. A bit of simplistic reasoning and a seductive line of “We’ll do this, this and this and all your problems will be solved” and they’re more than happy to put their cross in the box.

    Theres no easier target for extremist parties than a racial or religious minority to be demonised. In a different way, theres is also no easier target for them than people who are pissed off, poor and already drawing less than charitable conclusions about why they’re jobless or scraping it together on minimum wage. Just calling them racist bastards doesn’t make them go away, it doesn’t stop them from voting BNP.

    Logic and reason folks. They tend to be your best weapon, they’re certainly not the BNP’s.

  50. ZinZin — on 21st April, 2007 at 4:42 pm  

    ill man
    The BNP are standing for election in Rainhill a middle class ward of St.Helens. There are middle class racists as well as Alf Garnetts.

  51. Soso — on 21st April, 2007 at 5:27 pm  

    “I think it was Billy Bragg who, when told that such & such was the reason people voted BNP, replied, ‘No, people vote BNP because they’re racist bastards.’:Roger.

    Roger, ageing has-been rock stars have no special insights. Quoting some arthritic punk contemplating knee and hip replacements doesn’t make for much of an argument.

    And simply characterising the BNP as “racist” has become a kind of crutch that people lean on when called to think things through…..as though repeating the word often enough will make the probleme go away and will save us the time and trouble of having to actually analyse things.

    It won’t.

    You’re not facing a mere crisis of *racism*; you’re facing a crisis of society, a crisis of values, a crisis of religion, a crisis of identity, as well as a crisis of demography, all of which will only deepen, and which shallow and superficial thinking just won’t resolve.

    Something is seriously off the rails.

  52. Chairwoman — on 21st April, 2007 at 5:30 pm  

    ZinZin – Am I right in thinking that there is also a large phsychiatric unit in Rainhill :-)

  53. ZinZin — on 21st April, 2007 at 5:36 pm  

    Chairwoman you do surprise me. The Scott clinic is that the one you mean?

    Rainhill has its brown population of NHS professionals so the BNP will have to get a considerable amount of M/C racists to vote en masse.

  54. ZinZin — on 21st April, 2007 at 5:38 pm  

    Probably the Indian restaurant that has opened on Dane Court shopping precint that has led to a BNP presence.

  55. Don — on 21st April, 2007 at 6:57 pm  

    Soso,

    Do try to keep up. It was I who quoted Bragg, Roger questioned the usefulness of the sentiment – rather more cogently than you did.

    Characterising the BNP as racist is no more a crutch than characterising water as wet. Never thought for a moment that recognising their core value would make them go away.

  56. Roger — on 21st April, 2007 at 7:06 pm  

    The core values certainly are and the core support of the BNP quite possibly are irredeemable, Don. Their attraction to other people for a variety of reasons is the problem that has to be dealt with. Unfortuantely, people do vote for the BNP for other reasons than being racist bastards. The thing is to find ways to persuade people not to vote for them and not to become a racist bastard

  57. The iLL Man — on 21st April, 2007 at 7:34 pm  

    Point taken Zinzin, but I think that’s kind of what I’m getting at. There are a variety of reasons why people turn to the BNP, it’s just that the biggest gains are probably in the poorer areas.

    We’ll see how things go at the elections. As Clairwil said, fingers crossed for lost deposits but if something unpleasant rears it’s head, then it’s truly time for those who genuinely care about the communities they represent to get off their fat arses and work out why large numbers of their constituents are voting for a bunch of creepy, malevolent racial supremacists and thugs.

  58. El Cid — on 21st April, 2007 at 7:41 pm  

    Am I missing something? Has SoSo said something in the past that makes real discussion impossible? I don’t get it.

  59. El Cid — on 21st April, 2007 at 7:44 pm  

    I still wish you’d move on from the diagnosis stage and answer #41, so the rest of us who haven’t written you off completely get a bit more of a feel for what lies beneath the surface.

  60. Anas — on 22nd April, 2007 at 1:02 am  

    It isn’t enough anymore to cavalierly dismiss the Far Right with labels of “racist” and “bigot”.

    OK, let me rephrase what I said befoe: as long as there are racist far right groups out there, I can dismiss them as “racist” — unless racism has become socially acceptable or something? Yes you can try to understand the reasons why they’re gaining support,but that doesn’t make them any less scum.

  61. Felicity — on 22nd April, 2007 at 5:19 am  

    I would say “racism” is losing its negative connotations by the day.
    The term is more and more the property of some burqka clad protestor with a “death to the West” placard or her masked male protest colleague a dab hand with crayons of his own.

    They think anyone who doesn’t like them is a “racist”.The MCB think anyone who doesn’t want their indoctrination pack in schools is a “racist”, but only if they are white.
    Ergo, a “racist” is a good thing to be?

    Smilarly “Nazi” “Fascist” when screamed by a pierced mohawk in a donkey jacket has lost its cache…everyone knows a Nazi herded millions to gas chambers, not stood for election on a “Britains full” ticket?

    I was thinking about racism and racists and what they used to suggest and concluded that I probably am one given the definition of the forementioned examples..and guess what?
    I dont care.

    Naturally I’ll be voting BNP, so will my PTA group. Some of those are protest votes and thats a good thing too (lets them know we aren’t pleased with their performance)
    Personally I dont think the BNP will sweep the boards (not this time anyway) but they will force the issues of unfettered immigration from hostile Third World countries into the open. They will snap at the heels of the establishment like rottweilers and question every crazy PC decision about three pigs blowing houses down.

  62. Roger — on 22nd April, 2007 at 10:55 am  

    No, Anas: it’s a mistake to “dismiss them as racist”. If they were unpleasant but harmless fools we could dismiss them, but they aren’t.

  63. Roger — on 22nd April, 2007 at 11:01 am  

    “Naturally I’ll be voting BNP, so will my PTA group. Some of those are protest votes and thats a good thing too (lets them know we aren’t pleased with their performance)~”
    W£ho are “they”? If you vote for fascists as a “protest”, why do you object to people flapping “Death to the west” placards? After all, they might be doing it merely as a “protest” too.
    ” unfettered immigration from hostile Third World countries ”
    It might be a good idea to look at the laws governing immigration, my catty friend. I’m not very fond of Europe myself, but it’s hardly “Third World”.

    “They will snap at the heels of the establishment like rottweilers and question every crazy PC decision about three pigs blowing houses down.” and shamelessly regurgitate cliches and confused metaphors. I suggest you reread your children’s tales: it wasn’t the three little pigs that blew houses down.

  64. G. Tingey — on 22nd April, 2007 at 11:39 am  

    Sunny & Kulvinder:

    Just because some extreme christians also pose a threat, doesn’t mean muslims don’t either…

    As an atheist, I think all religions are forms of blackmail, and are cruel and unnecessary.

    And, no I wasn’t talking out of my arse, because I know what the Moghuls did to the last(?) Sikh guru ….

  65. raz — on 22nd April, 2007 at 2:22 pm  

    “I know what the Moghuls did to the last(?) Sikh guru”

    WTF? That was hundreds of years ago. Get a grip man.

  66. Soso — on 22nd April, 2007 at 4:43 pm  

    Ok Roger and Don, snce your only in-depth analysis of the BNP’s rise amouns to screaming racist, how will you then combat their growing appeal?

    By standing on a street-corner with a placard that reads; “the BNP are racist bastards”?

    Like I said before, invoking the term “racist” is just an effort on your part to maintain the BNP in “comfortable” niche, a niche that always comfirmed every expectation you had of a Far Right party.

    I’d love the limit the definiton of ‘Far Right’ to pimply, insecure, queer-bashing skinheads…..it would keep things so easy, familiar and predictable….but that’s not what it’s about anymore.

  67. Roger — on 22nd April, 2007 at 6:11 pm  

    This was the first post on the thread, Soso: “In England at least the BNP, UKIP etc and the Greens are about the only people standing for election on political grounds; Labour, Conservative, Lib-Dem are all so close to one another in local government policies and attitudes and local governmenat authorities have so little power that not many people except those with extreme or eccentric views are likely to vote at all.”

    Don quoted Billy Bragg with approval. I commented: “Then why are there so many more racist bastards now than there were, Don? It’s useful to find out why people become racist bastards so as to stop others doing so, even if you believe that “Once a racist bastard always a racist bastard” and don’t bother with them. The fact that the panic-mongers have managed to turn debate on the various topics of immigration [legal or illegal], refugees, race and religion into a debate based entirely on the question of just how racist and just how bastardly government and local policies ought to be means that it matters.”

    You should have read the whole thread or even whole posts, Soso. I made it plain that it is not simply racism that makes the BNP’s apparent support increase. I do not have an “in-depth analysis of the BNP’s rise [that] amouns to screaming racist.” I do say that racism and the encouragement of racism is part of their appeal, that they help make racism more acceptable and that the whole set of assumptions and reactions about immigrants and refugees has been set by racists.

  68. Kulvinder — on 22nd April, 2007 at 6:22 pm  

    And, no I wasn’t talking out of my arse, because I know what the Moghuls did to the last(?) Sikh guru ….

    I don’t think islam is a real threat to anything.

  69. Roger — on 22nd April, 2007 at 6:40 pm  

    “I don’t think islam is a real threat to anything.”- unless you live in a muslim country and have unislamic tastes.
    What it inspires individual muslims to do, however, is. What it inspires people who do think islam is a real threat to do is even more harmful.

  70. Kulvinder — on 22nd April, 2007 at 7:19 pm  

    unless you live in a muslim country and have unislamic tastes.

    What do you mean by muslim country A theocracy like Saudi Arabia? A country with a muslim monarchy like Jordan? some kind mix between democracy and sharia like Afghanistan? a secular country with a mainly muslim population like turkey? or just a country with a certain % of muslims?

    Minority rights would vary between those nations depending on their political makeup, not because of islam.

  71. Roger — on 22nd April, 2007 at 7:28 pm  

    There seems to be a tendency for the inhabitants of an area, if most of them are muslims, to take action against people who do things they think unislamic even if the country’s laws don’t. Reports from Pakistan ands Nigeria of people people being lynched for allegedly desecrating a copy of the quran are examples.

  72. Kulvinder — on 22nd April, 2007 at 7:54 pm  

    Those types of people are poor and illiterate; I don’t think its fair to compare their reactions to ‘us’. The recent protests in Turkey pretty much show that you can’t lump ‘muslims and islam’ into an all encompassing blob seeking totalitarianism.

  73. Roger — on 23rd April, 2007 at 10:44 am  

    I didn’t compare the reactions of poor and illiterate people with ‘us’, Kulvinder; I described the apparentlolreligiously-inspired behaviour- often encouraged by rich and powerful people- of those people. I think that islam- like christianity and judaism- has totalitarian aspirations built into it as a religion. After all, in their most basic forms they all claim to have solutions to everything and to have the right to impose absolute control on all behaviour.
    One of the problems we face is that there is a tendency for such behaviour to continue in the UK and that the fear of such behaviour increases hostility to muslims and increases the tendency to revert to defensive/offensive behaviour as a response to that hostility. As far as short term risks are concerned i am much more worried by motorists than radical muslims and as far as long term risks are concerned I am much more worried by the BNP and the indirect influence they have on public attitudes.

  74. sonia — on 23rd April, 2007 at 11:17 am  

    i don’t know why there’s a sort of ‘im more worried by the bnp than radical muslims’ idea floating about ( perhaps i’ve misread it) these things – as far as i can see – are related – in the context of britain obviously – and i’m not worried about one more than the other. they are both worrying and clearly feed off each other. also i am interested in finding out why both are growing and what it is they think they’re worried about. there seems to be a similar social dynamic and certainly a similar sense of victimhood, and that they’re the ‘only ones suffering’ and that it is everyone else’s fault.

    generally when people think like that you know there’s trouble brewing.

  75. Roger — on 23rd April, 2007 at 11:27 am  

    The BNP and other racists have effectively set the terms for discussions of race and immigration over the last few years, Sonia, which is why they are more worrying. What was an extreme response becomes perceived as moderate over a few years. A few years ago the term “asylum-seeker” was unknown, for example. Now it is the standard term for a refugee. Afewe years ago someone who was at risk of torture for political or racial reasons would have been considered a political refugee. Now they are liable to be deported.

  76. douglas clark — on 23rd April, 2007 at 12:07 pm  

    For a picture of how ridiculous our asylum laws have become, it is worth reading Madeleine Bunting on CiF:

    http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/madeleine_bunting/2007/04/britains_hour_of_shame.html

    I do not believe the complete idiocy of the governments’ position on this issue would have applied even, say, four years ago. That is how far to the right this country has been pushed by the sentiments of the BNP and the tabloid press. Some of the comments make me quite ashamed to occupy the same planet as these morons. This is where you end up when an arguement is allowed to become a default position.

  77. sonia — on 23rd April, 2007 at 12:34 pm  

    “The BNP and other racists have effectively set the terms for discussions of race and immigration over the last few years, Sonia, which is why they are more worrying.”

    have they? how so? by encouraging the rubbish reporting on asylum seekers? can we blame that on just the BNP?

    And immigration exists regardless of whether there are ‘racists’ demanding more immigration control. pretty much most of the establishment is ‘nationalist’ in that way. Not just the BNP – perhaps its only anarchists who can see that. Actually – as a foreign citizen who lives here on a visa – i can say that it is not only the BNP or ‘racists’ who have strange ideas on what the immigration rules actually are, and that they need ‘tightening’.

    Like i said – my view is the two feed off each other, there isn’t much point working out which is more ‘worrying’ : they are both ‘symptoms’ and the underlying causes are pretty much the same – and that is – worrying = yes.

  78. sonia — on 23rd April, 2007 at 12:36 pm  

    Very few people ( naturally – if they are not subject to immigration rules – why should they know anything much about it) know what the deal is with visas etc. So many people think you come to live here on a visa and bam you’re entitled to benefits. I’m surprised the HOme Office – when constantly under accusation – doesn’t set forth an accurate picture – as clearly most people don’t have a clue.

  79. sonia — on 23rd April, 2007 at 12:37 pm  

    So in that context – i would say – it’s not just the BNP.

    Oh no! I wish it were – but unfortunately it’s a much wider group.

  80. Anon+1 — on 23rd April, 2007 at 4:10 pm  

    Spout all the crap you like about the BNP, terms like the Nazis, Facists, Racists are really getting old. If you want to challenge the BNP, why not try and get a debate together with Nick Griffin? Reason is because anyone who tries WILL lose, so he is avoided out of fear.
    Standard BNP members are nothing like described and are simpley angry that the country is being destroyed by mass immigration to line the pockets of the rich.

    Roll on May elections where I, my whole family, many of my friends, their families and Bob who I randomly met on a bus, will ALL be voting for the BNP. Lets see how many seats we win this time.

  81. Kismet Hardy — on 23rd April, 2007 at 4:12 pm  

    Damn it. I was so convinced I’d talked Bob round to voting Green…

  82. douglas clark — on 23rd April, 2007 at 7:00 pm  

    What is odd is that the most recent Poll I can find, for Populus, says that if a general election was called only 1% of voters would vote for the BNP. An earlier Poll for You Gov put BNP support at 3%.
    Given the concerns of some, optimism of others, on this thread, is there data that suggests a last minute swing?

    Oor Bob seems to me to be joining a sinking ship.

  83. A Councillor writes — on 23rd April, 2007 at 8:08 pm  

    You have to remember that opinion polls have margins of error and that the samples are quite small, sufficently so that all minor parties suffer up and down swings on that basis, especially ones like the BNP where their support is somewhat more geographically concentrated than say the Green Party.

    Canvassing evidence would indicate that they are up slightly OR that their voters are getting less shy than they were. There was a time when the BNP would poll 5-6% in my ward and there would be none on the canvas, now they poll just under 20% and there are on the canvas but under-represented on it. The scary thing is that they don’t actually work the area, they have better areas in my city to work in. I can’t help feeling that some proportion of their vote is a form of protest.

    There’s lots of good comments on this thread and I will comment further at length if I get time, however, back to the saltmines for the rest of the evening for me, I’m afraid.

  84. Rumbold — on 23rd April, 2007 at 10:36 pm  

    Regarding the polling, the usual scenario was that many potential voters for extreme parties did not divulge their intentions and so the extremist parties always did better than expected. However, in France, Le Pen did worse than predicted, which hopefully will be the fate of the BNP.

  85. douglas clark — on 23rd April, 2007 at 10:43 pm  

    Rumbold,

    Yeah, agreed. There doesn’t seem to be much polling going on though, does there?

  86. Rumbold — on 23rd April, 2007 at 11:10 pm  

    Perhaps most are just burying their heads in the sand Douglas Clark, or focusing more on Labour’s predicted collapse.

  87. ludo — on 24th April, 2007 at 9:32 pm  

    I can’t wait for the day that Britain divides and Islam becomes more prolific.When we are no longer the minority then you will see the demise and eventual collapse of the BNP.There will be no place for them in a new British society,eveyone will convert and live in peace.

    Allah be with you,god bless you all.

  88. Anon+1 — on 24th April, 2007 at 11:12 pm  

    I very much doubt ludo that the native Britons will ever convert to that oppressive, paedophile worshipping religion of so called peace called Islam.

  89. Don — on 24th April, 2007 at 11:48 pm  

    I’ve seen better puppetry from six-year olds.

  90. douglas clark — on 25th April, 2007 at 12:06 am  

    Posts 88 and 89,

    Bill and Ben, the Flowerpot Men.

    88: “Yobba, yobba, yobba, yobba, ya?”

    89: “Boing, boing, nah!”

    I think Weed had better lines.

    You could see the strings though….

  91. Clairwil — on 25th April, 2007 at 1:15 am  

    Actually I’m totally convinced by Ludo’s powerful argument.

    It’s all so clear now. You can either be a Nazi or a Muslim. There is no vast and varied middle ground.

    Would a shocking pink hijab be regarded as too showy I wonder?

  92. Roger — on 25th April, 2007 at 10:15 am  

    http://politics.guardian.co.uk/localgovernment/story/0,,2064912,00.html says that the Greens and UKIP each have 2% out of 12% planning on voting for “small parties” but makes no mention of the BNP whatsoever.

  93. ludo — on 25th April, 2007 at 12:19 pm  

    Re Anon,I’m afraid my predictions and wishes are not to be dismissed as folly.Islam is a progressive,rich and peacefull alternative to this troubled and divided land.A religion that does not recognise race ,one that will encompass and provide you with the tools neccessary to live a fulfilled and happy life.

    The Bnp is a generation protest vote,heavily opposed by the majority of white Britons who are able to see behind their fascist veneer.As the National Front collapsed so will the Bnp.Britain is changing ,it is progression there is no room for racist parties only Islam.The writing is on the wall,please accept this and embrace the concept,as i’m sure Britain will.

  94. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 25th April, 2007 at 1:01 pm  

    Other than cries of “al akbhar” before a terrorist incident, its people like Ludo that make me Islamophobic.

    TFI

  95. Don — on 25th April, 2007 at 1:52 pm  

    TFI,

    What? Sockpuppets?

  96. lithcol — on 25th April, 2007 at 2:27 pm  

    Ludo,

    Islam seems to be doing very well in Pakistan. You know, uniting diparate groups towards a common goal. Supporting a nascent domcracy, the rights of woman, minorities etc.

    The problem is we are getting far too much religeon in politics in this country nowadays and that is not healthy.

    And who said this is a troubled and divided land?

  97. lithcol — on 25th April, 2007 at 2:45 pm  

    Ludo,

    Islam seems to be doing very well in Pakistan. You know, uniting disparate groups towards a common goal. Supporting a nascent democracy, the rights of woman, minorities etc.

    The problem is religious groups are more and more trying to influence politics in this country and that is not healthy.

    If by any chance the somewhat absurd scenario you suggest were to come about then this would indeed be a troubled and divided land.

    But of course there would be blood on the streets long before.

    I am a pacifist but I am prepared to defend secular democracy in this country to the death.

  98. Refresh — on 25th April, 2007 at 2:52 pm  

    I am not convinced Ludo is a muslim.

  99. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 25th April, 2007 at 2:54 pm  

    Don,

    The thing about sockpuppets is that someone has their hand up the puppets arse and mouths the words for them to speak. I wouldn’t mind if there was just one or two but these muppets are legion. Radical Islam appears to have many many hands and there are far to many muppets.

    TFI

  100. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 25th April, 2007 at 2:56 pm  

    I’m convinced Ludo is an idiot.

    TFI

  101. Refresh — on 25th April, 2007 at 2:58 pm  

    TFI – question is why does idiots like Ludo make you Islamaphobic. In fact its not the first time you’ve stated that. Each time you read a view which stirs you, you justify your Islamaphobia.

    Is it possible that Ludo is not a muslim, and that it serves his purpose to have you play a 1-2 with him?

  102. Refresh — on 25th April, 2007 at 2:59 pm  

    And for all I know it serves your purpose too.

  103. Kulvinder — on 25th April, 2007 at 3:08 pm  

    Hey guys before you degenerate into islamaphobia because of what someone on the internet said its probably worth remembering that the word ‘god’ isn’t used by muslims in the same sentence as Allah. And that anyone who wanted to pretend to be a muslim on the internet, let alone an extra extra reverential one, should at least have bothered reading enough to know that ‘Subhana-Hu wa Ta’ala’ should be included after Allah.

    So ‘may allah(swt) bless you all’ makes more sense than ‘Allah be with you,god bless you all’.

    Thats before i or anyone else on this site start speaking to ‘ludo’ in anything other than english.

  104. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 25th April, 2007 at 3:13 pm  

    Refresh,

    Maybe you are right, maybe he is an undercover Zionist trying to wind us all up, or a BNP member that wishes to sow discontent?

    But in your world would no Muslim would say these things? Or do you like to pretend that 7/7 terrorists where not Muslim?

    TFI

  105. Kulvinder — on 25th April, 2007 at 3:16 pm  

    But in your world would no Muslim would say these things? Or do you like to pretend that 7/7 terrorists where not Muslim?

    That doesn’t make any sense.

  106. Refresh — on 25th April, 2007 at 3:22 pm  

    TFI – actually none I know of.

    Know some who have followed your path of enlightenment – all the way down from Jihadwatch and LGF. To what purpose, exactly?

    And know of others who have HAD TO substitute muslims for blacks and asians.

    And many more still who repent the killing of a million people, in their name, for the sake of some power-crazed cabal.

  107. Don — on 25th April, 2007 at 3:28 pm  

    TFI,

    What do you mean ‘maybe’? It’s been bleedin’ obvious from the first that he’s poor quality bnp sock-puppet. Hence a troll and not to be fed.

  108. Refresh — on 25th April, 2007 at 3:32 pm  

    Kulvinder

    That was well spotted. But I was more interested in what he was saying – which was a pathetic attempt at stirring it up. Succeeded with some, it seems.

  109. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 25th April, 2007 at 3:40 pm  

    TFI – actually none I know of.

    Me neither, all the Muslims I’ve meet in the real world seem very nice. But chaps like Usman appear to be real, terrorism appears to be real and there are plenty of voices from the Middle East that claim we’ll fall under the sword of Islam.

    That doesn’t make any sense.

    Sorry about that. I’ve read claims that the murderous 7/7 bombers weren’t Muslim because they left the faith when they performed the killings. It is very hard for me to follow or accept this reasoning.

    Don, I guess that my BS detector isn’t as good as yours.

    We can all agree that people like Ludo successfully feed my fears, irrespectful of whether he is a stooge or the real thing.

    TFI

  110. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 25th April, 2007 at 3:41 pm  

    Succeeded with some, it seems.

    Indeed it did / does.

    TFI

  111. Kulvinder — on 25th April, 2007 at 3:50 pm  

    Sorry about that. I’ve read claims that the murderous 7/7 bombers weren’t Muslim because they left the faith when they performed the killings. It is very hard for me to follow or accept this reasoning.

    The 7th July Bombers (i hate the term 7/7) never made any claims about Britain dividing and Islam becoming more prolific. Their justification had nothing to do with coversion.

  112. Kulvinder — on 25th April, 2007 at 3:51 pm  

    Do you think the geo-political tensions we have are to do with muslims trying to convert people!?!?!?!

  113. Refresh — on 25th April, 2007 at 3:53 pm  

    TFI

    The problem you face – and we in turn – is that your early grounding came from Jihadwatch. It makes you susceptible to falsehoods and in fact worse it encourages you to spread the word. Regardless.

  114. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 25th April, 2007 at 4:29 pm  

    Kulvinder,

    In turn I hate the term ‘bomber’, terrorist is more appropriate when a political terrorism is involved.

    I appreciate your point regarding conversion, but I really don’t try and separate the items of nonsense the ultra religious fruit loops come up with.

    For instance there might be a difference between claim the Earth is 3000 years old and believing in Rapture, but both are equally stupid.

    Do you think the geo-political tensions we have are to do with Muslims trying to convert people!?!?!?!

    Actually I think that are mostly caused by the Internet, mobile phones, resources and mutual incomprehension of each others value systems.

    It is my opinion that most of the Islamic related disputes in this world are based on the last one.

    The problem you face – and we in turn – is that your early grounding came from Jihadwatch.

    In return, the problem that you face – and we in turn – is that your early grounding came from your own life experience and a belief that your benign version of Islam is the one that is shared by all others. It makes you susceptible to falsehoods and in fact worse it encourages you to disregard what is in front of your eyes.

    For instance Abu Izzadeen exists and he has a lot of friends, he truck is certinaly not caused by “Western Imperialism”, although he knows how to milk it to full effect.

    It is correctly argued that Islam is not a monolith and that is being hijacked by an extremist thread.

    A great deal of Saudi oil money is being spent spreading their version of Islam, and looking outside my front door at all the Hijabs wandering around, they seem to be doing mighty good job of it.

    Should they successfully obtain ownership of the brand “Islam” it will become the monolith it is currently claimed it not to be.

    TFI

  115. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 25th April, 2007 at 4:32 pm  

    Sorry for the bold in the last post.

    Besides, Refresh, in the interests of diversity this site needs the occasional poster that reads the Jihadwatch narative for you to beat up on, and visa versa.

    Moderation comes from communication and understanding, does it not?

    TFI

  116. Refresh — on 25th April, 2007 at 4:54 pm  

    TFI,

    “Moderation comes from communication and understanding, does it not?”

    as long as that’s where you are heading, and that you carry that new found moderation back to Jihadwatch.

    And as far as Jihadwatch is concerned you should also look at how, when and why it was set and how it is funded.

    “n return, the problem that you face – and we in turn – is that your early grounding came from your own life experience and a belief that your benign version of Islam is the one that is shared by all others.”

    This is the first time you’ve actually acknowledged that I am benign, like over a billion others.

    So perhaps there is some moderation creeping in.

    On the whole as far as diversity on this site is concerned – absolutely no issue. Its the only advantage the site has.

    But to deal with anyone who you know or perceive to be muslim with what has occasionally seemed vindictiveness is not part of the game. That should have stopped at least a few months ago.

    When you first told us that you had moved to PP from Jihadwatch because you found them over the top, I was pleased. But to pick up again as if you were evangalising for them did disturb me.

    But whatever you do, don’t end up like j0nz. Cold baths may help.

  117. jon.novice — on 25th April, 2007 at 5:11 pm  

    a pacifist who is willing to fight to the death??
    sort of sums up this whole debate.

  118. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 25th April, 2007 at 5:14 pm  

    Refresh,

    I’m surprised that you remember so much about my entrance on this site.

    I do read JW still and irrespective of how it is funded, or setup its narrative cannot be ignored. The same nonsense is directed at Memri, somehow Israeli money makes it dirty, tainted and to be disregarded.

    This posturing is completely irrelevant to what they both publish, which is news pieces from range of sources. In the stance of JW it comes with a framing of religious nonsense from which the Jihadis’ base their actions.

    This is the first time you’ve actually acknowledged that I am benign, like over a billion others.

    Most people are. It is when things come into conflict people stop being this way. This is why the Iranian thing recently was so interesting, it divided people’s loyalties.

    I’ll never end up like Jonz.

    TFI

  119. Refresh — on 25th April, 2007 at 5:19 pm  

    Just did a quick search about Saudi money (I asked for “British History Wahabi”), this was an interesting link:

    http://www.serendipity.li/wot/livingstone.htm

    Have a look also at the comments. And if you get the chance have a look at the homepage.

  120. Refresh — on 25th April, 2007 at 5:25 pm  

    In times of intense propaganda it is always wise to know the objectives of organisations. Just as you rightly point to Saudi money. It is also right to question Jihadwatch and memri – them more so than anything written by individuals with views to share.

    In fact its your rational duty to ask questions and seek proof before absorbing.

  121. Katherine — on 25th April, 2007 at 5:29 pm  

    I once had the displeasure of receiving a BNP election leaflet through the post. Since it was the first I’d ever seen, and it’s useful to keep an eye on the enemy, as it were, I had a look.

    All I can say is – wow. They’ve got some serious spinmeisters on board who, I’m sad to say, are doing a very good job. They had some flashy statistics that all sounded terribly reasonable and feasible. They even had a little boy with a caption saying “my Daddy isn’t racist”. It was one of the most manipulative and slick pieces of propoganda I’ve seen.

    Having read it, I can actually see how people could be taken in by it. It is a while, after all, since the BNP was publicly talking about forced repatriation. They’ve rebranded skillfully. All you have to be is pissed off, uninformed and willing to believe what you read and the BNP can sneak in. Chilling.

  122. Refresh — on 25th April, 2007 at 5:29 pm  

    “This is the first time you’ve actually acknowledged that I am benign, like over a billion others.

    Most people are. It is when things come into conflict people stop being this way. This is why the Iranian thing recently was so interesting, it divided people’s loyalties.”

    People’s loyalty (as in faux patriotism) can be a dangerous thing – loyalty to the truth is much more powerful and important.

  123. Refresh — on 25th April, 2007 at 5:31 pm  

    Sorry – lets get back to the issue in hand – the BNP and local elections.

  124. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 25th April, 2007 at 6:04 pm  

    Refresh,

    What a great title: “Globalists created Wahhabi Terrorism to Destroy Islam and Justify a Global State”, it just rolls off the tongue.

    Even if what it says is true, and the “Globalists” created this Wahabi monster and introduced perfectly well behaved Muslims to previously unknown concepts such as: racism and nationalism, alcohol, gambling, fornication and uncovered women – is it not amazing that they fell for it so easily and completely?

    From that artical I did stumble across: “The Memoirs Of Mr. Hempher, The British Spy To The Middle East” which is rather fascinating.

    The Globalists have put a lovely flat screen TV in my front room, provide me with flights around the world, cheap import goods and allows the free movement of people and ideas.

    Either way this Islamist monster (I don’t believe that it is strictly linked to Wahabism alone, more tightly coupled with discontent with the modern world and incomphension and fear of a society that has lost its belief in god) that is romping around the Umma causing death and destruction wherever it goes, it mascarades as “Pure” Islam and threatens both you, I and the future of our families.

    Perphaps if I state that I’m a Islamistaphobic you would join me then?

    TFI

  125. Refresh — on 25th April, 2007 at 6:09 pm  

    TFI

    “Perphaps if I state that I’m a Islamistaphobic you would join me then?”

    No I don’t think so. I dont trust you. Not yet anyway.

  126. douglas clark — on 25th April, 2007 at 6:15 pm  

    Refresh,

    What was the point of your link in post 120? Even I can see it is a weird conspiracy type site. Please explain for the benefit of the terminally dim, i.e. me.

  127. lithcol — on 25th April, 2007 at 6:31 pm  

    Katherine,

    The government has admitted that the recent influx of cheap labour from the EU has caused some difficulties but on the whole has been good.

    Good for whom. Certainly not for the unskilled and semiskilled. Been good for unscrupulous employers, home owners and those who profit from renting.
    The BNP will of course use such grievances to expand their base. They do not acknowledge of course that it is not just poor whites who are adversely affected, who it appears they seek to represent, but all who are at the bottom of the pile.

    The rise of the BNP is an indicator that the current government has lost its way. It promulgates legislation to protect the people but does little to enforce it.

  128. Refresh — on 25th April, 2007 at 6:36 pm  

    Douglas,

    I had been told about the Wahabi sect being established by British security services, long before 911 etc. I heard about it about 30 years ago.

    The search I did was my first attempt to see what was out there.

    “Even I can see it is a weird conspiracy type site.”

    I don’t know if it is or it isn’t – I’ve not looked any further.

    My second reason was for the benefit of TFI who is happy with JH narrative – which is to say there are many narratives.

  129. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 25th April, 2007 at 6:52 pm  

    Refresh, the JW narrative is an expectionally well researched narative. If the Islamic narrative is to be consumed by non-believers it needs to be internally consistent and be refferencable. Unfortunately the Islamic narrative is rarely presented this way, it generally relies on falsehoods, like the “Jooos organized 7/11″ or even gems like “… the Saudi family, who, despite claims otherwise, were descended from Jewish merchants from Iraq.”

    It just comes over as plup fiction, considering we have that pumped down our throats via TV, radio and cinema it is not suprising that elements of our society buy into such outragous ideas.

    TFI

  130. Don — on 25th April, 2007 at 7:31 pm  

    That Hempher thing crops up every now and then. It’s about as reliable a historical document as The Protocols; the publishing history is a give-away, it’s riddled with internal inconsistencies, bizarre locutions and the dates are all out of whack.

    Refresh,

    You don’t know if it’s a wierd conspiracy site or not? Well, it proposes the standard fare; CIA/Mossad behind 9/11, Blair behind the London Transport bombings, aliens called Anunnaki controlling mankind, the Illuminati …

    There are many narratives indeed, some are barking mad.

  131. lithcol — on 25th April, 2007 at 7:46 pm  

    Refresh,

    At the risk of being accused of being a closet member of the BNP and an islamophobe, an Iranian student of mine told me the other day of renewed attempts by the regime to clamp down on underground rap and heavy rock music, mainly in Tehran. I didn’t know it existed. He says the Ministry of Culture is stupid and they will fail as they have in the past. Young people, don’t you just love them.

    I didn’t know about Jihad watch . Had a look. Seems to gather news stories from around the world on Islamic Fundamentalism. Most of it from muslim majority countries. Scary stuff if it is true. Just like merry old England. Not sure if you would be burnt at the stake for insulting the pope or for being heretical.

    Is there a pope watch or perhaps a Christian fundamentalist watch? I only ask because the catholic hierarchy appear to be flexing their muscles and are pushing for a return to traditional values. Whatever they are?

    Having no religion I feel I am between a rock and a hard place. A pox on all their fundamentalist beliefs I say.

    As to your link to D. Livingstone, anyone reading it and his home page will be left with the impression that the man is a complete loon.

  132. Refresh — on 25th April, 2007 at 8:06 pm  

    “You don’t know if it’s a wierd conspiracy site or not?”

    Been back to it – and saw those.

    I had never heard of Hempher – how much do you know?

  133. Kulvinder — on 25th April, 2007 at 8:13 pm  

    In turn I hate the term ‘bomber’, terrorist is more appropriate when a political terrorism is involved.

    TBH the word terrorist lost its meaning the moment Nelson Mandela was labelled one.

    …but I really don’t try and separate the items of nonsense the ultra religious fruit loops come up with.

    Thats fairly obvious; it does however make you sound like a loon.

    Actually I think that are mostly caused by the Internet, mobile phones, resources and mutual incomprehension of each others value systems.

    It is my opinion that most of the Islamic related disputes in this world are based on the last one.

    As above, but for clarification i don’t believe those fighting in Iraq, nor those angered by Iraq to the point they blow themselves up are fighting over ‘value systems’; and if anything we’ve ‘imposed’ ourselved on ‘them’ to a far greater degree.

  134. Halima — on 25th April, 2007 at 8:26 pm  

    Sorry to post this here but it seems kind of linked ( and more so linked with the discussions on working classes, and then also Galloway and East End…)

    Basically the New East Enders ( bu Dench and Gavron) was reviweed a while back very positively – because both the BNP and Trevor Phillips gave the book a positive endorsement.

    Anyway, the book is deeply worrying because it’s visionary architect was left leaning Utopian ( Michael Young , founder of Open University and whose first book Family and Kindship is the bedrock of sociology in the 1950s).

    Anyway the follow-up book seems to have come up with a dystopia – and virtually all researchers and academics have distanced themselves from it. Two reasons. No methodology – just captures snippets and has no method of analysing the material. Also because it claims to represent the views of white working classes in the East End – but ignores a whole groundswell of white people in the East End who’re left loving people who don’t want to bash the welfare states or the local Bangladeshis.

    There are lots of other things wrong with it – least of all, listening to white working classes views isn’t a novel thing, and they claim the findings are controversal for New Labour but they have entered a brave new world by presenting their views… well it’s no big deal to hear white working classes lodging complaints about ethnical minorities taking all the housing – but what is novel is that a bunch of fairly respectable researchers should write a book and completely white-wash out the history of the East End, housing, sqautting, activism, Bangladeshi evictions and squatting. Were they asleep for the last 20 years?

    Funnily enough I was at the British sociological conference mentioned in the article and when I asked Geoff Dench what about the views of young Bangladeshis who don’t feel that they have sat on council list and got a house quickly but instead had to fight off petrol bombs through their letter boxes and watch their mothers’ saris ripped off by racists in the 1980s when they were offered homes in white neighbourhoods – Geoff Dench replied, ‘well the young Bangladeshi in Monica Ali’s book said this and that…” I mean – not being disrectful but he was defending his position against my Bangladshi view by quoting fiction to justify his points in a book that might go to inform social policies on housing??? Now when some people then say Monica Ali is fiction, you can see where it ends up, in the analysis of misguided academics and their books when they can’t defend their positions. Hmm.

    http://society.guardian.co.uk/communities/story/0,,2064416,00.html

  135. Refresh — on 25th April, 2007 at 8:31 pm  

    TFI

    Listen to the Reith Lecture – excellent.

  136. lithcol — on 25th April, 2007 at 8:42 pm  

    Kulvinder,

    Nelson Mandella was against the wanton destruction of human beings per se. His so called acts of terrorism were aimed at physical targets. Therein lies his humanity and widespread appeal and why I also would not call him a terrorist.

    However, the term terrorism is legitimate when the object is the indiscriminate taking of human life by states, groups or individual whatever their motivations.

  137. Refresh — on 25th April, 2007 at 8:47 pm  

    Lithcol,

    I like your definition. End all violence.

  138. Clairwil — on 25th April, 2007 at 9:56 pm  

    Speaking of the BNP I’ve just had one of their candidates (Colin Cox) over at my blog. I think I was astonishingly polite under the circumstances. Anyway I’ve asked him to explain Holocaust denial. I won’t be holding my breath for a sensible answer.

    http://clairwil.blogspot.com/2007/04/oh-lordy-here-come-nazis.html

  139. douglas clark — on 25th April, 2007 at 10:25 pm  

    Would this Colin Cox be the same Colin Cox who wrote to the North Wiltshire Gazette and Herald, recently:

    http://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/display.var.1295570.0.0.php?act=complaint&cid=167412

    Another carpetbagger, perhaps?

  140. A Councillor writes — on 25th April, 2007 at 11:15 pm  

    OK, I promised a longer post on this subject, so here it is. It’s probably all rubbish, but I did promise.

    I think firstly, we have to look at the BNP vote and possibly where it has come from and why it has gone to them. Then we have to look at what is being done about it and what can be done about it.

    Five years ago, in 2002, the BNP first stood in the precursor seat to my ward, they attracted a meagre 2% of the vote. In 2003, they didn’t bother. In 2004, when the boundaries changed they got 15% of the vote with one candidate in an “all-up” contest (i.e. all three councillors for re-election) – this usually enhances the vote of the smaller parties. In 2006, with a traditional one on one election, they got under 20% of the vote. All of this was done with very little campaigning, the odd bit of door to door work and the odd (very odd in one case) leaflet, but no concerted campaign.

    Where did this increase come from? Well, a common comment is that it came out of the votes of the main parties by voters disenchanted with their similarity (cf Rogers comment at No 1) and that has a share in the truth, but I suspect that many of their voters actually hadn’t voted for some time.

    Why this increase? My ward is a mainly white working class ward, it has some middle-class pockets, less than one-fifth of the electorate are from a BME background. It has high residual unemployment where there used to be well-paid skilled jobs and high levels of perceived anti-social behaviour and crime (neither are as high as they are perceived to be). There are considerable housing pressures within the ward, with a high number of “hidden households” and average houseprices well above the required sums for a couple to buy a house.

    Over the last ten years, there has been a considerable increase in the BME population – many of which have moved into social housing properties because of the higher levels of multiple housing need amongst some of the BME communities. Over the last three years a considerable number of Eastern Europeans have come to live in the ward, the latter has increased private rental prices considerable whilst competing for the pool of jobs available in the area.

    The downtown area has been extensively and expensively regenerated, what was a declining shopping area and nighttime crime area is now a bustling area with excellent shops, good nightlife and lots of apartments with “City Living”. Many inner city areas have also received extensive and much needed funding to deal with the many problems in those areas. Very little has been spent on the outer former council estate areas which now have identikit shopping parades with two takeaways, a newsagents/offie/general store, a hairdressers/tanning salon/nail salon and an estate agents . We have poor facilities available to the public (a common problem of mainly social housing areas of the interwar and postwar periods).

    I have no doubt that the BNP and it’s ilk have a small core vote of stone racists and nazi worshippers.

    I have very little doubt that there are other people who happily vote for them knowing full well what they are like because what they say echoes with what they are feeling about unemployment, housing and the decline and lack of investment in the area. They may not be the most politically correct people in the world, but they aren’t hardcore haters and they are voting as a message to the political establishment.

    They have an increasing number of older people supporting them because they are more comfortable with the social message of the BNP than that of the main parties.

    In trying to combat this – they have three councillors who try to keep them informed (regular newsletters every couple of months) and take action on local problems and help them with casework. We are elected with around 50% of the vote. One of the other mainstream parties is also active and does some good work and keeps us on our toes, we have some very good community organisations and residents associations – although they tend to dip from the same pool of people, many of whom are retired. The schools are at worst above average and the best of them are excellent. Our local police are friendly, approachable, have increased their visibilty and taken on more resident-centric methods of policing. We have attempted to wisely spent our small amounts of regeneration funding. All this helps to keep the wolf from the door.

    “Hope not Hate” and other associated campaigns may keep areas from electing BNP members and that’s good (although some of their literature is rather “preachy”), but it only offers a short-term solution. There are fundamental problems that need to be sorted out before things will improve that the 57 varieties of Britism proto-facism return to the insignificance they once held.

    We need to smarten up even further, as elected members and as active citizens. We need work as catalysts for community interaction to bring people together. We need to work harder not just on the day to day issues, nut on capacity building in community organisations and on gaining inward funding. Most of all we need confidence in ourselves and our community to do these tasks.

    As a final comment, more picklers in electoral politics, yes please. You’ll be younger than the average, I suspect better educated than the average and will come from different socio-economic backgrounds to many of us. Of course, you may not like the hours or the wages, but the rewards are different to what you’ll get in any other “job”.

    But the one thing you can do, if you have local elections this year is vote. I’m not going to ask you to vote for my party, I’ll ask you to vote for the person who you feel will do the best job for all the people in your area. But please vote, it’s important and if the BNP are standing in your area, remember, every vote in the box that isn’t for them, is against them.

  141. douglas clark — on 26th April, 2007 at 12:02 am  

    You do realise that someone like me, given the info you have given, could work out who you are? Not that I’m going to, ’cause you seem a sensible kind of guy.

    Best of luck in the elections, we need more like you, and Sunny, Sonia, Clairwill, Katy Newton, Chairwoman and anyone I’ve missed, yeah, Anas, Leon, Zin Zin, Re bloody fresh, even Soru; well maybe not soru…. Do I hold a grudge? Yes I do.

    The point you make, I think, is that people like that ought to be entering direct, party political politics. And they don’t. Which is a shame, as Sonia for instance, has more ideas in her head than the Labour Party has conferences. Same for Sunny, And all of the rest of the folk that post on here. Except me, obviously, ’cause I prefer the to be the Peter Falk, Columbo character.

    The lack of engagement is the downfall of democracy, I think. It is all very well for folk to write here, but they have to engage too. Otherwise it becomes meaningless.

    Hope you get re-elected.

  142. Rumbold — on 26th April, 2007 at 12:07 am  

    One more thing Douglas Clark….

  143. douglas clark — on 26th April, 2007 at 12:22 am  

    Oops,

    And Rumbold, obviously….. Rumbold for President, maybe.

    And I answer to dougie, the only reason I use my full name is to stop me being more stupid than I actually am. In other words, I’d like to wake up in the morning and think what I posted was what I believe, not some muppet post. You might disagree totally with what I say, but it is at least my defence against pretence.

    In the words of someone: “I am who I say I am.” Eminem?

  144. Refresh — on 26th April, 2007 at 12:27 am  

    “Re bloody fresh”

    I am afraid I have done as much as I can, through the 70′s, 80′s and 90′s – and now of course dealing with a new breed of reactionaries – the online breed.

  145. Refresh — on 26th April, 2007 at 12:34 am  

    By the way Sonia, I am sure she won’t mind me saying, is a whole new ideology in its own right:

    No borders No Barriers

  146. douglas clark — on 26th April, 2007 at 12:42 am  

    Refresh,

    I hope that wasn’t pointed at me.

    I think you have a lot to say, and much of it is worthwhile. Just don’t expect me, or anyone else, to agree with conspiracy web sites.

    Which is where the ‘bloody’ came from. That is just so much rubbish! Stand up and be counted! Go for it. Just give the conspiracy stuff a rest, OK?

  147. douglas clark — on 26th April, 2007 at 12:48 am  

    Refresh,

    So what if that is what Sonia thinks? She’s entitled to think what she wants and put it to the electorate if she chooses to. She’d certainly get my vote. It is not as stupid an idea as you think it is.

  148. Refresh — on 26th April, 2007 at 12:50 am  

    Hi Douglas,

    I am not sure which bit you are referring to. Tell me – I am sure there is some misunderstanding.

  149. lithcol — on 26th April, 2007 at 12:55 am  

    I hate to interrupt the love fest here but reality must intrude.

    The Councillor reports excellent results and all are to be commended. As indeed are the local community activists and probably many many others.

    However even optimists such as Douglas Clark must admit we are all facing an uphill struggle and an uncertain future. Brown will become prime minister at a time when the so called economic miracle is starting to unravel. Pay rises in the unsustainable public sector are being capped, and in many cases people are facing real pay cuts, even their jobs.. Higher interest rates are putting affordable housing even further out of reach for those wishing to buy, and of course not enough affordable housing is being built.

    Council tax is going through the roof. Ordianry pensioners are seeing more than a fifth of their pensions going on this. Students are finding it increasingly difficult to afford advanced education, etc etc.

    Yes we need good effective people in local government, perhaps even more so given the diminishing resources that we are facing. Picklers, I know almost all of you are good guys and girls with your hearts in the right place, and should have a go at being selected.

    However, as you well appreciate, the world is a cruel and unforgiving place. A new world order is emerging and it is inevitable that our standard of living will diminish. Good for people in other countries emerging from poverty but bad for those who are used to and expect a certain level of prosperity. How this is managed without social conflict is an open question.

  150. Refresh — on 26th April, 2007 at 12:56 am  

    “It is not as stupid an idea as you think it is.”

    I really should not be on here, I really am unhappy to have been misunderstood on something as simple and straightforward as that.

    It may surprise you to know that I happen to think that that is a damn good (No borders No Barriers) slogan for her to go electioneering on. In fact I am going to claim copyright to it.

    I have some reservations on some of her other stuff of course.

  151. Refresh — on 26th April, 2007 at 12:59 am  

    Douglas

    What is even more worrying is that all of a sudden I am a conspiracy theorist.

    I don’t think I’ll bother.

    You need your cocoa and I need to reflect.

  152. lithcol — on 26th April, 2007 at 1:05 am  

    I should have added to my previous post 150 that when you have malign spoilers such as the BNP, the management of social conflict becomes infinitely more difficult.

  153. douglas clark — on 26th April, 2007 at 1:14 am  

    Refresh,

    It was post 145 I was taking exception to. I accept that re bloody fresh was a bit incendiary, but it was on the basis that I thought we were chums. That we, kind of, understood each other. I have, after all, suggested that people should vote you into Parliament (see post 142).

    You pointed to a conspiratorial web site on another thread here, as if it was valid. I didn’t see it that way. That is where we parted, despite my genuine belief that you would be a better Parlimentarian than most of them.

    Conspiratorial web sites are anathema to me. They suck too much energy out of you, or me, to refute. They are rotten to the core. How do you disprove a lie? It is hard work. It is also wasted work, for nobody that believes the lie will be convinced, and no-one that disbelieves the lie needs convinced.

    Trust you will leave the outer reaches alone in future, for I do think you are an OK guy. Refresh for PM!

  154. Refresh — on 26th April, 2007 at 1:27 am  

    Douglas

    “re bloody fresh”

    was never incendiary. Not to me. I read it as you meant it. In a joshing kind of way.

    Please read 145 again.

  155. Refresh — on 26th April, 2007 at 1:29 am  

    As for PM, I wouldn’t mind if it meant we could have peace and prosperity for all – without borders and without barriers.

    Call me a socialist if you want to – it’d only cheer me up.

  156. douglas clark — on 26th April, 2007 at 1:31 am  

    OK, I’ve re-read 145 without my hard hat on. I took it personally. Doh! How do you do the embarrased emoticon thingy?

    Quits? I can’t keep apologising.

  157. Refresh — on 26th April, 2007 at 1:42 am  

    No apology required.

    I have been misunderstood before.

    Sonia was the first. Imagine me saying to Sonia – “Read what you said”.

    And she presumes that I meant was that SHE should read what she had said.

  158. Refresh — on 26th April, 2007 at 1:44 am  

    In a nutshell – I like what you have to say too. At least I know the barricades won’t go un-supervised.

  159. Kulvinder — on 26th April, 2007 at 2:47 am  

    BME?!?

  160. Roger — on 26th April, 2007 at 10:30 am  

    “As for PM, I wouldn’t mind if it meant we could have peace and prosperity for all – without borders and without barriers.

    Call me a socialist if you want to – it’d only cheer me up.”
    You’re a globalist, actually. That’s what globalism promises.
    It’s one of the reasons for the rise of the BNP and other protest/turn back the clock parties: there is no “local” anymore. Everything that happens everywhere in the world affects everywhere else pretty quickly and pretty directly. If you can get green beans from Kenya, strawberries from Guatemala, corn from Thailand [I may not be exact here] in the supermarket, then everything else travels just as fast- ideas, insects, diseases, people. Someone starving in zimbabwe who doesn’t like being beaten up up by Mugabe’s goons or an underemployed Chinese peasant or a Polish labourer who wants to buy a farm- legally or not they can get here and they can get employment. You can’t just pick the bits of globalisation that suit you and do without the rest. There are very good arguments for making travel- all physical travel- more difficult and more expensive, but it means that people can’t see their relatives abroad anything like as often, they can’t get Chinese-made toys as cheaply, they can’t go abroad on holidayd twice a year, as well as not getting refugees and immigrants to do the job cheaper/undercut local labour.

    The ultimate future of globalisation: auden saw it more than sixty years ago:
    GARE DU MIDI

    A nondescript express from the South,
    Crowds round the ticket barrier, a face
    To welcome which the mayor has not contrived
    Bugles or braid: something about the mouth
    Distract the stray look with alarm and pity.
    Snow is falling. Clutching a little case,
    He walks out briskly to infect a city
    Whose terrible future may have just arrived.

  161. Davies — on 26th April, 2007 at 11:53 am  

    It is all very well for folk to write here, but they have to engage too. Otherwise it becomes meaningless.(142)
    not true. ive sat at my desk at work for the past 2 days reading this discussion. im young with minimal interests in politics and to be frank the only reason i looked at this site is because its 1 of around 3 sites i can actually access in working hours!
    There’s no denying it, i have been very interested in what you were all discussing and it has opened my eyes to different opinions and issues i’d never really thought about in detail before.
    My point is if you didnt discuss these issues on the net people like me would not get to be part of them.

    Thanks.

  162. douglas clark — on 26th April, 2007 at 12:03 pm  

    Davies,

    Point taken. I was, and am still, convinced that a lot of these folk could make a go of it if they wanted to.

  163. El Cid — on 26th April, 2007 at 12:13 pm  

    nice one councillor
    others might disagree, but I think you saved this thread

  164. Refresh — on 26th April, 2007 at 12:22 pm  

    Welcome Davies.

    Lithcol – “However, as you well appreciate, the world is a cruel and unforgiving place. A new world order is emerging and it is inevitable that our standard of living will diminish. Good for people in other countries emerging from poverty but bad for those who are used to and expect a certain level of prosperity. How this is managed without social conflict is an open question.”

    Excellent observation.

  165. Chairwoman — on 26th April, 2007 at 1:56 pm  

    Hello Davies

    *Waves in welcoming Auntie-like fashion*

  166. Anon+1 — on 26th April, 2007 at 2:56 pm  

    Ive no doubt that a minority of BNP voters fill this gap you call “nazi” but anyone found out to support these views would not be tolerated. I for one am no nazi and only wish death upon the plague peadophiles, rapists, murderers and various other scum that populate our land and infest our jails, regardless of race. They only exist to cause pain and suffering to those around them and drain money from the taxpayers to keep their “human rights” in check. Why not put to death the worst of the worst? Think of all the money saved that could be spent on our NHS, improving our public services or boosting our research to aid the unfortunate?

    Anyway back to topic, the majority of the party are Nationalists who love their home country and dont want it changed the way its being changed now.
    They are pro British who want to see our non existant manufacturing industries and our delapidated agricultural industries completely turned around, wanting to hire British workers rather than offshore to India to save some upper class toff a few quid.
    More jobs combined with very strict views on crime and punishment would reverse the tide of this shocking gang culture crime wave that is sweeping the country.
    Speaking to my grandparents this was non existant in their day, they claim people were proud of this land and had respect for each other and the law.

    Its disgusting that the BNP are constantly smeared by so many anti British establishments, and I use the term smear and not challenged because to challenge them would only result in more people flocking to the BNP, while to smear them and threaten the people that see the truth is much more effective.
    However more and more people are waking up and seeing through this pathetic smear tactic, how else do you explain the rise of the BNP?

    Roll on May, where you will see the biggest BNP gain in their history so far.

  167. Davies — on 26th April, 2007 at 5:20 pm  

    “Its disgusting that the BNP are constantly smeared by so many anti British establishments”167.
    i am a patriot. i love my country. just because the BNP have ‘British’ in the name does not make their views British. im young, white and working class. my father was a minor and my mother a housewife. i grew up on a council estate. cant get too much closer to the ideal demographic of which the BNP is targeting (i would imagine). there are many people in my position and with a similar background who would constantly ‘smear’ and yes, even challenge the BNP’s views and if they’re truely like me they havent got an anti-british bone in their body. so it’s not just anti-british establishments who you’re up against.

    “the majority of the party are Nationalists who love their home country and dont want it changed the way its being changed now”.
    our country, along with all countries, is and always will be changing. which is a good thing. take off the blinkers.

    in my opinion, the BNP, labour, conservatives, lib dem, ukip and the others all have one thing in common. they refuse to agree with each other. they are in the eyes of my peers ‘them’ as oppose to ‘us’. if you ask me, its the tabloids running this country.

  168. lithcol — on 26th April, 2007 at 9:51 pm  

    Hi Davies,

    Welcome to the site. I like you am a newbie, although unlike you I crashed in without introducing myself. Rude I know but then I am not known for my social graces. I like it here, civilized people and the blog owner is a darling as long as you don’t rub him up the wrong way. He is a real madam and will kick you if you overstep the mark.

    One other thing you must be precise in your use of words otherwise you will get blasted by the likes of Refresh. Sorry Refresh, and thanks for the recent compliments. Really appreciated. I may reciprocate someday soon.

  169. Refresh — on 26th April, 2007 at 10:26 pm  

    “One other thing you must be precise in your use of words otherwise you will get blasted by the likes of Refresh.”

    You can hardly level that one at me. Loose talk which creates divisions or sustains or promulgates prejudice is what I am concerned about. Oh and hypocrisy.

  170. lithcol — on 26th April, 2007 at 11:17 pm  

    Refresh,

    It was meant as a complement. I think you had a go at my loose use of a particular word on another thread, which I eventually qualified. The word did not create divisions or promulgate prejudice, rather it led to an incorrect inference.

    What has hypocrisy got to do with anything?

  171. Refresh — on 27th April, 2007 at 12:13 am  

    hahaha – another misunderstanding.

  172. lithcol — on 27th April, 2007 at 12:26 am  

    Refresh,

    We appear to be divided by a common language. I suppose that is why actions speak louder than words. Unfortunate, for we will forever be separated in cyberspace. Perhaps for the best.

    See that Sunny is on CIF. Appears to have problems with the concept of Britishness. Don’t we all.

  173. Davies — on 27th April, 2007 at 9:05 am  

    “One other thing you must be precise in your use of words otherwise you will get blasted by the likes of Refresh.”

    thats half the reason ill continue to come on here.

  174. soru — on 27th April, 2007 at 9:49 am  

    I had never heard of Hempher – how much do you know?

    I’m not a fan of Pipes, but this is about the only non-islamist source who mentions him:

    http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1648

    Having not succeeded on this second mission, Hempher was duly recalled to London. There he studied a fascinating book titled How Can We Demolish Islam. Hempher also learned that he was only one of 5,000 British agents assigned with the same mission of weakening the Muslims, and that the government planned to increase the number of agents to 100,000 by the end of the eighteenth century: “When we reach this number we shall have brought all Muslims under our sway.” At that happy moment, Islam will be rendered “into a miserable state from which it will never recover again.”

    All this in the early 18C, a hundred years before the Napoleonic wars, when I don’t think ‘spy’ was even a meaningful category.

    In 1730, Hempher orchestrated Muhammad’s revolt against the Ottomans. To help the cause, 11 other Arabic-speaking British officers turned up, and they, too, paraded themselves as Muhammad’s slaves. Thus did the Wahhabi variant of fundamentalist Islam come to dominate most of the Arabian peninsula through an elaborate conspiracy.

    It was written by a Turk in the 1930s, so I think the sub-text is not particularly sub.

  175. Anon+1 — on 27th April, 2007 at 10:22 am  

    Daves obviously a moron with very selective reading. I said the way its being changed now, not I dont ever want change. Of course I want change, but change in the best interests of the British people.
    You claim that you challenge the BNP’s views? Go on then, challenge them not just play the cookie cutter Nazi’s card.

    Go to their website and have a read.
    http://www.bnp.org.uk/

    Heres some more stuff about the UK’s “nation of immigrants” http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/papers/p_DailyMail_23Apr_07.asp

  176. Refresh — on 27th April, 2007 at 10:38 am  

    Soru – fascinating. From so many perspectives.

  177. Refresh — on 27th April, 2007 at 10:48 am  

    Anon+1

    There really is no need for abuse.

    I know you are addressing Davies, but if I would like to put this to you.

    You seem to be concerned about a changing Britain. Do you acknowledge that Britain has had far more ‘influence’ on the rest of the world, than the other way round?

    If we were to accept your view at face value, then would not most of the population of the US be sitting on our doorstep. Would not most of the Australian population be sitting here too. Add to that New Zealand, not forgetting Costa Del Sol.

    I make that a population far in excess of 100 million, on this little isle.

    Imagine you competing for a job with that demography. And in reality the pressure would be so severe that you would need to invade and colonise other countries for their resources if for nothing else.

    Whatever you may think at the moment.

  178. Davies — on 27th April, 2007 at 10:53 am  

    your probably right Anon+1. except my reading is not selective. i have a lot to learn about everything being only 20. i can only read whats in front of me.
    i do agree there are too many immigrant coming into our country. but from my point of veiw its purely a numbers thing not a race thing. From what i have read and been told, the BNP do not see it like this alone.
    Obviously i will be corrected when i have a read of their site.

  179. Piglug — on 27th April, 2007 at 1:04 pm  

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ

    Re Davies.The link above tells you all you need to know about immigration,make up your own mind.

    I suggest you watch it all,regards pl

  180. Refresh — on 27th April, 2007 at 1:22 pm  

    Davies I think you are being recruited.

  181. Anon+1 — on 27th April, 2007 at 2:04 pm  

    I dont try and brainwash people or convert anyone, thats the job of the liberal left and their wacky theories. All I do is speak my opinions and present people with evidence to support them, however they view this material and the conclusions they come up with are entirely upto them.

    Im aware that the UK had more influence on the rest of the world than anywhere else, eg we abolished the slave trade in modern nations. No small thing as it had been around for perhaps over 3000 years and still continues today in some unfortunate areas.
    We accounted for many of the worlds inventions, bringing technology and medicines to places we went.
    Now it wasnt all good of course, but im no imperialist and the actions of my country 200 years before are not my responsibility and cirtainly are no excuse to allow the current insanity effecting the UK today to continue.

    And Refresh, please come out with an intelligent comment. If those people did not migrate then their offspring numbers would be far smaller as we wouldnt have the capacity here to have supported them, plus one of the primary aims of any colony is to breed.
    Also my personal stace is for global population reduction, not expansion. We already consume the resources of 3x what our Earth can support.

    Davies in my opinions its both a race and numbers thing, theres FAR too many coming in and parts of my town are rapidly changing into areas id expect to see on a foreign holiday. I say race too because these people are not mixing into our society, they form their own social groups with their own kind.
    Look at immigrant controlled restuarnts for an example, do you see ANY white english people employed there? or are all the staff of the same kind as the owner? Lets not be PC for a moment, yes they are.
    If an English owned resturant only hired white English people, how fast would it be labeled racist?

    Also Davies im just 23, I only started looking into the world of politics from last september. I wasnt recruited by anyone, I read everything all off my own back, even read lots of anti-BNP material so I have both sides of the arguement. That usually consisted of

    BNP: We think x, y and z are currently wrong and a, b and c are our ideas to fix it.
    Liberals: You are nazis.
    BNP: Erm.. okay, but what do you think of idea b?
    Liberals: You want to gas anyone who isnt white!

    But please dont read the major newspapers spin on the BNP. Those papers are owned by big business, the last political party they want to see in power are the BNP who are pro smaller independant businesses.
    Redistribute wealth back to the poor? Never! they wouldnt want that!

    Heres more material:
    http://www.personneltoday.com/Articles/2006/07/13/36388/brighton-hove-council-joins-list-of-organisation-barring-white-applicants-over-the-colour-of.html

    http://www.personneltoday.com/Articles/2006/03/15/34433/avon-and-somerset-police-pays-undisclosed-sum-to-rejected-white.html

  182. Davies — on 27th April, 2007 at 2:24 pm  

    Young but not stupid.
    just had a read of the BNP Chairmans column. in all honesty it was quite interesting. But im affraid Anon+1 its not for me. it started with a beutiful image of the scottish countryside. very well written may i add. but no matter how well/cleverly written, you cant change the fact that it does revolve around racism. its been said that the terms racist, facist, Nazi are tired, overused remarks. i see why now. if it’s not broken, dont fix it.

  183. Anon+1 — on 27th April, 2007 at 2:52 pm  

    Yes because standing up for our communities and heratige are very racist things to do.
    It doesnt NOT revolve around racism, it revolves around realism and if you are too blind, brainwashed or scared to see this then I pity you.

  184. Davies — on 27th April, 2007 at 3:15 pm  

    whats wrong with standing up for other communities, other heratiges as well as our own?
    I my opinion, the way immigration is handled in this country is appaulling. but its not the immigrants who make it this way. its the windbags at the ‘top’.

  185. Anon+1 — on 27th April, 2007 at 5:08 pm  

    Ahh you mean the other heritages that eminate from outside the UK? So you want the English people to stand up for other countries citizens at the expense of our own, which if you bothered to read the second wave of links its painfully clear we the white woring class English are the oppressed ones. Would you expect the people of Japan to suddenly pipe up, “hang on, the English are getting screwed over there, lets stand up for them? What world do you live in?

    Theres organisations that stand up for the right of its members purely on the basis of their race, Black womans business owners to name one. But theres NONE for the white English.

    Me nor any of the BNP blame or hate immigrants for wanting to come here to improve their living standards, people who say we do are really misinformed.
    I blame the people at the top too, for living in their bubble at westminister concerned with only their lives and that of their fatcat business friends.

    Go read the Sunday sport, Davies. That is probably more on you’re level.

  186. Rumbold — on 27th April, 2007 at 5:19 pm  

    Anon+1:

    “Go read the Sunday sport, Davies. That is probably more on you’re level.”

    It is your level, not you’re level. If you are going to insult someone’s intelligence, at least get the spelling right. Also, it is Sunday Sport, not Sunday sport.

  187. Piglug — on 27th April, 2007 at 5:29 pm  

    Rumbold:I think you mean grammer old boy.tut tut .

  188. Don — on 27th April, 2007 at 5:44 pm  

    Grammer?

  189. Rumbold — on 27th April, 2007 at 5:47 pm  

    Curses Piglug. I should be more careful; in my haste I did not think. Thank you.

  190. Anon+1 — on 27th April, 2007 at 9:18 pm  

    Well another effective critisism, put that one along with Nazi.
    If picking on someones grammar is all you can do then you need help. I for one dont spend hours preening my text or running it through words spell + grammar checker to extend my e-peen to a pack of idiots.

  191. Charlie — on 28th April, 2007 at 2:45 am  

    With respect, some people appear to be living on a different astral plane.
    There is no doubt that….
    1. We live on an overcrowded island and that the population is increasng at an alarming rate. The government seems hell bent on increasing the population even further
    2. Our laws often seem to favour the criminals, rather that the victims.
    3. We are giving £billions in foriegn aid and we can’t look after our own war veterans, the very people who risked their lives to keep us speaking English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish.
    4. We are subject to positive discrimination. It is well known that if a caucasian person complains of racial abuse, he will probably be ignored. But if a caucasian person even looks at a person of another race, and that person wishes to complain (even without proof), the caucasian person will most likely be prosecuted. Heck, I can’t describe myself as English without being branded a racist.

    Please assure me that this land we live in does not have a serious problem on its hands and thet the present administration has plans to sort it all out.

    Regards

  192. Rumbold — on 28th April, 2007 at 11:24 am  

    Tell you what Anon+1. I will stop picking apart your grammar and spelling if you stop insulting people simply because they disagree with you.

  193. anon — on 7th May, 2007 at 1:16 am  

    Well the BNP represent the interests of British people.

    I find it incredible that a group of people who I did not invite to live here in our country even have the temerity to try and influence the matter.

    Quite simply its none of your business who we vote for and a lot of bleating about ‘nazis’ & ‘fascists’ is going to change that.

  194. douglas clark — on 7th May, 2007 at 2:32 am  

    anon,

    Did anyone ever tell you you can go to France?

    And work there, or anywhere else in the EU. And, whisper it, it’s a right. Whether Madame invites you or not.

    You do seem to have an odd idea about publishing your views on a web site. Like this one. If it is none of our business, why are you so keen to tell us that you and your dug voted BNP?

    Which seems to have been just about the size of it. Hardly a stirring victory for the Volk, was it?

  195. Chairwoman — on 7th May, 2007 at 7:38 am  

    anon – Of course you’re entitled to vote for the BNP.

    And everybody else is entitled not to.

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