No I’m not arguing for that. I’m just saying these institutions should be more diverse than they are, at least to vaguely reflect the constituency they serve.

But I’m not in favour of the idea that: Asian journalists only cover Asian stories; that white MPs cannot serve Asian constituents etc. But these two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

Do you really think that politicians should “represent” people along racial lines?

And how precisley would that work?
Should an Asian MP attempt to represent Asians rather than his/her constituents?

Lunacy.

Back in the day you’d get the best of six from the cane for disregarding your grammar lessons boyo

Kulvinder, you are wrong about the police’s mission. They are not and never have been a primarily investigative force.

Yeah i know, but i disagree with that as i disagree with the supposed ‘deterrent’ nature of justice (outside of specific examples) or the rationale that prison ‘reduces’ crime.

I take it as a priori that most policemen spend their time investigating complaints or crimes that have occured than preventing them with their presence.

*sigh*

These days its all Rampant Rabbits, AIDs, fast food and media hate figures.

*wipes tear from eye*

Oh for the good old days …

TFI

http://blackinblue.blogspot.com/2006/10/this-paper-was-given-to-service-in.html

Need I say anymore. I have heard nothing of the paper, indicating the hidden desire as Sunny suggests, to continue to pick on Black Officer’s they don’t like, to over scrutinse, to marginalise us into oblivion. And finally to increase numbers by bringing in “Freshies” whose legs will eventually be taken because they are simply not good enough.

I am getting excited. I might just wee myself sorry, but I will take this in bites. I submitted this paper in 2004. No one wanted to publish it. There are 13 critical reccomendations. it was titled:

Sack the first Superintendent who practices racism or demote them for racism and overnight there will be change in race relations of the type never seen before in policing circles………………

You can find the link here, but here were the reccomendations. Instead of sacking the Supers they are promoting them. Yes, that’s right, practice racsim, and we will promote you! So you see, post Macpherson, and in some denial, the problem is getting worse. Now I have wee’d myself!

Recommendations post the CRE report into racism and the police service (2004)

(1) ACPO must first ensure that ‘Race’ is understood and acknowledged as a specialist area within policing. Forces will ensure that relevant departments focussing on ‘race’ issues contain an alternative racialised perspective within, irrespective of rank. This means that Police organisations have no choice but to now those Black colleagues that do not sell out to these issues into key strategic/operational positions within the Force.

(2) ACPO must acknowledge and ensure that selective consultation with member of the BME community, or selected members of BPA’s that are themselves racist or whom purport to represent the community without academic knowledge or experience, will cease.

(3) (i) ACPO must ensure that Forces identify ‘race’ experts within their respective Forces. In essence and as a guide there may be one or two individuals within each Force who exist irrespective of rank with these skills These individuals will have a (a) thorough understanding, (b) proven experience in tackling ‘race’ issues at a local and national level, (c) as well as an academic background in this field. ii) ACPO will ensure that these individuals are not further marginalised and will pursue to sign up these people to form an advisory committee on ‘race’ issues within the police organisation and
essentially this group will act as a steering group for ACPO on the issues of ‘race.’(iii) These individuals will on a basis of Team basis be able to provide mutual aid support in relation to issues of ‘race’ tension that occur across England, Wales and Scotland. (iv) Secondments to foreign Forces will be made possible where intervention is deemed to be of assistance to the recipient Force and these people will from part of this team.

(4) ACPO will agree to critically review the support given to local BPA’s and the NBPA in terms of funding and a base level will be agreed. Financial disparity between Forces will be removed. ACPO will agree to critique the factors that allow the best people to serve on the NBPA and in other Home Office departments in relation to ‘race.’

In particular, the removal of barriers relating to rank will be pursued rigorously and secondments to relevant departments will be based on the criteria identified in 3 (a) to (c) above.

(5) ACPO will ensure that Forces will agree a minimum base standard of training delivery in relation to race’ and this must be a continuous and regular process. Suitably experienced speakers and minority ethnic trainers will from the visible minority ethnic communities will form a part of this training. Training Managers that do not deliver effective training will be removed.

(6) ACPO will pursue vigorous policies and practices that mean those that practice institutional racism will be demoted and/or dismissed.

(7) ACPO will pursue an agreement that it will pursue honest representation of ‘race’ issues from a media perspective both within and in the community.

(8) ACPO will agree and ensure an immediate and independent review of leadership training for minority ethnic staff, which is considered to be delivered from a White ethnocentric stance.

(8) ACPO will agree to review promotion and career routes for BME staff and proactively remove inappropriate promotion cliques, e.g. Inspector’s mess. ACPO will agree to review how it has pursued a “behave like me and I will promote you approach.”

(9) ACPO will ensure that Forces will review their partnerships and promote partnership work from the perspective of anti racism. Any leader not actively pursuing this process will be removed and offered alternative posting.

(10) ACPO will agree to provide a research review of national ‘race’ tribunals by Forces since 1995,within 1 year, and provide examples of racist behaviours to Forces with a view to model some learning and actions that will assist Forces in preventing racism’s. The criteria for the research will be agreed with relevant BME staff.

(11) ACPO will promote research being conducted from a racialised perspective. This research will review the BPA movement the NBPA movements and insider experience producing its final findings within 2 years to ACPO.

(12) The ‘race’ portfolio will not be passed around within ACPO for a period of less than three years. There will be set objectives for each Force within the portfolio, and every two years a report will be published by ACPO showing development. Non significant progress will be vigorously monitored with sanctions being placed on Forces and Chief Constables who do not meet relevant areas of development.

(13) Both ACPO and the Police Federation will forthwith employ selected and suitably qualified police officers as “race” advisors. These officers will pursue the action plan above and report yearly on progress.

Please go to this link and juse view for yourselves, what it is we, on the inside have to put up with. I need a little support here!

Twining.

http://inspectorgadget.wordpress.com/2007/04/16/leave-my-kitten-alone/#comments

#1 those who see the coppers as inheritors of George Dixon’s mantle; lovable, reliable stalwarts.

#2 those who see them as having a primary duty to society and who, as a fallible and human organisation need to be scrutinised and held to account.

#3 those who see them as keeping the lower orders in their place, and a damn good thing too.

#4 those who see them as keeping the lower orders in their place, the bastards.

I don’t see why these distinctions add anything, but if you want to use them feel free.

I have to ask if you accept that one aspect of that job is reducing the risk of Joe Public being a victim of crime…

… but it is the arm charged with -among other things- preventing murder, rape and robbery and with dealing with pissed up divvies in town centres. Do you really want to make that aspect more difficult?

They don’t ‘prevent’ murder, rape and robbery. The police isn’t a preventive force and was never designed as one; they’re mainly an investigative force that deal with the aftermath of incidents. They aren’t personal security.

Regardless im not really sure what you’re trying to argue if you take yourself to be #2 in your criteria go ahead.

Do you really want to make that aspect more difficult?

I want to make the job of authoritarian figures more difficult yes.

I think all that research had already been done. And, sort of, selective marketing does seem to be in place, if you read Police Force Web Sites, and probably more to the point, believe them. The issue here is that it has become a bureaucratic target, rather than a winning over of hearts and minds.

Indeed some Forces seem to have involved the MCB, or vice versa:

http://www.mcb.org.uk/features/features.php?ann_id=250

Sorry about that, Sunnys’ blood pressure was OK too, as I remember!

Can I just make a couple of other points?

Firstly, we could correct the overall imbalance in numbers by recruiting Ethnic Minority Constables. My understanding is that all Policemen must start as Constables. But it is important to remember that, like any bureaucracy, it is a structured hierarchy. So, getting promotion into higher posts will take some time. Despite fast track, it might take that cohort of new recruits a generation to be in a position to challenge for a job as Chief Constable, given a fair crack of the whip. (OK generation is OTT, but you know what I mean)

I have no evidence whatsoever for this, but I’d assume the drop out rate for EM policemen is likely to come at the lower levels, in percentage terms – versus their rank. {Once they have seen progress in their career, they are far less likely to leave – pension rights, further promotion, more interesting work, etc.}

So, if we want to have a representative Police Service at all levels, it is going to take a while. Dead mens shoes and all that.

I’d be really pleased if our friendly neighbourhood bobby, who I see as a Dixon of Dock Green sort of chap, would comment. Twining in Black and Blue! Where are you?

That the police should represent the community they serve is a given.

However, discrimination is a policy littered with problems.

As a first step, i would like to see more research on which particular minorities are under-represented. Then these communities should be targetted to increase recruitment through selctive marketing and by persuading community leaders to encourage enrolment in the force.

As an aside, this is really no different to the govt insisting that universities admit more state school kids. Whilst it is unfair that private schools are over-represented at Unis, the solution is not to discriminate against them.

You offer no realistic solutions. Promoting equally qualified minorities above the equally qualified majority just because they are minorities is clearly a none starter and will lead to social unrest. Toss a coin.

You couldn’t possibly have a big influx of none whites unless qualified none white are prepared to put themselves forward. Perhaps their communities will perceive them as “Uncle Toms”. Sham if that is the case. Crime is crime whatever your race.

If you meet the standards then you have a job. Male/female, black, brown, yellow or white, homosexual or whatever.

Good policing is necessary and I don’t accept the crap put forward by some so called libertarian/anarchists on this site that the police are inherently corrupt and racist.

Just look at the so called police in other parts of the world if you want to criticise the Met.
People will not have confidence in the police if they believe they obtained the job because of their minority status.

If I have to have surgery I am not concerned because I know the individual doing it will be competent. He/she may well be brown or whatever. No problem. They will have served their apprenticeship and will be employed on the basis their expertise.

Positive discrimination is not positive it is discriminatory and will lead to social unrest.

Pommy – I don’t know, probably the same reason why there is under-representation of black, Asian, Hindu, Jewish etc officers? I wonder if there’s any research on this.

I don’t think simply saying we should stick to merit does anything other than carry on with the mess we have. Either the police force changes drastically, or they allow in a big influx of non-white officers so the internal culture is forced to adjust.

Sure, in the case of a draw, favour the EM, but it won’t make any substantial difference to the stats.

Douglas I don’t doubt your experience. I feared as much too.

Pommy I belives Poles count as white non-British as Soru pointed out above. They should be represented, though I’m not sure if they are.

But visible ethnic minorities face a problem that Poles don’t – that their skin colour makes them stand out and then they may be subjected to racial prejudice.

Halima, good points.

Sorry, maybe I could have phrased that better. I know the system, and I know it works. It was your suggestion about how it could apply in this particular situation that I meant. As far as I can see from looking at Police Web Sites, they aren’t doing it yet. So, what you are suggesting would be new to them. And a damn fine idea it is too

You are quite right that interviews themselves can be a problem. Despite having conducted thousands of interviews, put me in the hot seat and I was complete shit. I think lithcol is going for positive thinking, I just wish it had worked for me.