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  • Disparaging the white working-classes


    by Clairwil
    13th April, 2007 at 9:04 am    

    From Little Britain, to newspaper opinion columns. The message is clear: the white working classes are fat, lazy, thick morons and as such they can be spoken of in ways that would be unthinkable if applied to blacks or Asians.

    The white working classes are given no credit for doing work that is dirty, tiring , often demeaning and almost always poorly paid, yet are blamed for all society’s ills. To add insult to injury we are now told that immigrants do all that work better, unlike the ‘bumptious’ natives who fail to show gratitude for their minimum wage pittance.

    The Dept for Work and Pensions website for ‘benefit thieves‘ for example provides information in a number of languages to help ensure no-one is missing out on their entitlement. Yet the only minority language provision on the section dealing with benefit fraud is Welsh. I am not suggesting for a moment that this is anything more than an oversight but why is it only important to be inclusive when handing out benefits?

    Is benefit fraud exclusively committed by fluent English and Welsh speakers? It’s fine with me that government departments are making efforts to make minorities feel included, it would be lovely if they would consider the feelings of the white majority while they did so.

    The colour bias to be found in the attitudes of the liberal snob is breathtaking. Writer Michael Collins recalls attending a media party and hearing one white middle class woman complain that the working class area she’d moved to was ‘very white’.

    If you doubt the influence these attitudes have, take a look at these quotes from members of the public commenting on the topic of asylum and immigration on this BBC website.

    Immigrants and asylum seekers come here to work, not to sponge. I wish I could say the same about elements of our own home-grown, welfare-dependent white population. I’ll vote for any party that promises to increase immigration and the granting of asylum and which promises to deport those elements of our own white population that are a far greater burden on the state in terms of welfare, crime, anti-social behaviour and terminal un-employable than any ethnic minority or asylum seeker. [Garth, Hull, UK]

    How about we make more room for immigrants with a bit of enforced migration? There are an awful lot of stupid, unpleasant white Britons in this country who have no skills, can barely speak their first language and contribute nothing to society. I’d be more than glad to see the back of them and the front of someone who has come here to make a better life for themselves. [Sue, UK]

    Can you imagine the uproar if someone argued that UK born blacks were sub-literate lazy morons who should be deported to make way for hard working white immigrants? Yet the most vicious prejudice and contempt is considered acceptable if it’s directed towards the white poor.

    In reality immigrants and asylum seekers are just people from wide variety of cultures and social classes. They do not come from a planet where everyone conforms to the values of the middle class liberal and can no more be regarded a uniformly fine bunch of people than the native poor dismissed as scum.

    Building up immigrants and asylum seekers at the expense of the white native population is more likely than anything else to provoke a racist reaction. I cannot see how simultaneously telling a whole section of society it is worthless scum and accusing them of racism is likely to improve race relations.

    In fact if I were a BNP activist I’d be dancing for joy each time whites are trashed and I’d be over the moon as an issue white class hated is barely even on the radar. It’s about time anti-racists started speaking up, if not there are plenty thugs and racists who’ll be more than happy to do so.

    One thing is for certain, if and when the backlash happens it won’t be the white middle classes or media snobs that bear the brunt of it.


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    1. ChrisC — on 13th April, 2007 at 9:29 am  

      “The white working classes are given no credit for doing work that is dirty, tiring , often demeaning and almost always poorly paid”

      I see no evidence of them doing any such work in London. Nor the black working class for that matter.

      Immigrants are indeed taking the jobs which “natives” are not prepared to do and, thanks to benefits, do not have to do.

      I’m not sure what policies you are advocating, except perhaps banning Vicky Pollard?

      The obvious ones - cutting benefits and restricting immigration - are I assume not at the top of your list?

    2. Chairwoman — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:51 am  

      Clairwil - You’ve really struck a chord with me. I remember being on the bus in Liverpool about 20 years ago, and commenting to my husband that I was uncomfortable that everybody was white. He, a Scouser from a neighbourhood where even to this day the only brown faces are shopkeepers and doctors, and there are no black faces at all, put me firmly in my place by reminding me that the majority of the country was the same. I doubt if it’s true today.

      Similarly what ChrisC says also makes a point. As you know, I’m currently chairbound, and waiting to go into hospital to hopefully become moblie again. The girl who comes and cleans for me is an East European graduate. Not only does she clean, but she washes my clothes, makes me lunch on the days she’s here, and walks the dog. Those things she will not take money for. The other day Katy and Dmitri were out, so she brought me a home cooked meal, on a tray, wrapped in a white cloth. People choose immigrants because they are not only hard working, but also friendly and go that extra mile.

      It seems ludicrous to suggest this, but what the WWC need is a rebranding exercise.

    3. Stewart — on 13th April, 2007 at 11:12 am  

      We’ve been betrayed by ourselves

    4. sonia — on 13th April, 2007 at 11:49 am  

      great post Clairwil. you’re right of course. and when the Jade and Shilpa episode started it was really obvious that people thought at the same time that it was outrageous to call someone ‘poppadum’ it was fine to retaliate and say someone is a white slag.

      we often hear about the ‘glass ceiling’ and people speak as if through being white that should automatically open some magical doors. it doesn’t necessarily at all . in many situations for example if you’re perceived to be ‘internationally jet-set-come from a privileged background-somewhere else’ type you might find it easier. ( my caveat to these things are that personality plays a huge role of course - in the end if you’re a confident enough charismatic person you can find ways around barriers)

      but back to social barriers. we seem to have such simplistic concepts of these - not as intersecting criss-crossing, but a ‘hierarchy’ sort of idea. spurring on the “who’s the biggest victim” competition thing - it just seems to have created the awkward situation that for people who may feel they have real concerns - but if they’re white - then that’s dismissed often as not being anywhere near as significant as the ‘suffering’ of ‘others’ - who aren’t white.

      it’s as if the ‘immigrants’ from south asia all thought absolutely everyone in Britain was a Sahib like the ones’ they’d seen swanning around in India. Was this resentment of the Imperial lot transferred to everyone, regardless of the fact of who they actually were? There doesn’t seem to be much understanding of the fact that just like in the Indian sub-continent if you were the same colour/ethnicity that was no guarantee of success - thanks to the intense social stratification -> there might be something similar in other societies, e.g. Britain.

    5. sonia — on 13th April, 2007 at 11:55 am  

      “I see no evidence of them doing any such work in London. Nor the black working class for that matter.”

      what a statement to make. where do you live? i live in southwark, the street cleaners are an eclectic mix now - but definitely lots of people are ‘white’ no doubt about that.

      its funny, i grew up in Kuwait where they ‘imported’ people in to do everything: everyone was an expat. kuwaitis sure as hell didn’t do the street cleaning that’s for sure. some of my classmates were once Really Surpised when our computing teacher, a lovely man - Mr. Underwood, when quizzed on what he’d been doing before he started teaching, said he’d been a systems analyst. then he got fired and started working on his book, and cleaning in the mornings to make money. Boy were some of the people gob-smacked. they actually said - you’re english, why would you go around cleaning? they thought ‘English’ people didn’t do work like that - surely they would have found someone else from another country to do it!

    6. sonia — on 13th April, 2007 at 11:57 am  

      “Is benefit fraud exclusively committed by fluent English and Welsh speakers?”

      heh heh i would have put another language up under that section - Yoruba.

    7. Megan — on 13th April, 2007 at 11:58 am  

      The comments left on the BBC Website seem pretty fair and just; I don’t see the big deal. A huge majority of the (white) people who live around me in Manchester do not work, and have at least three to six children, and yes they are all supported by benefits because they see this as a birth right.

      And most of the white working class I do know may complain about their work being underpaid and demeaning, but most of those people work in offices, in retail, as cleaners; doing easy but boring work. Easy but boring is not quite the same as hard work. Ask any immigrant who works 14 hours a day in a kitchen.

      In the same way that you are accusing the Dept of Work & Pensions of generalizing, you are doing the same thing. Obviously not all benefit cheats are white - no one believes that it is just the white working classes who take advantage.

      Having said that - maybe the reason why you haven’t heard of many Asians branded lazy, fat, morons is because there is proportionatly less (not none) but less lazy Asians. You put a poor Asian into England and in one generation they will turn out a professional; a lawyer, a dentist; an accountant. I can’t say that many of the white working classes around me do the same; each generation repeats itself; have lots children young. I can’t speak for black people; I don’t personally know that many blacks, but there is certainly some issues socially they have to deal with and it can be harder for them to get the opportunites to step up in life.

      Finally - “Building up immigrants and asylum seekers at the expense of the white native population is more likely than anything else to provoke a racist reaction.”

      Isn’t that just YOUR racist reaction? I doubt you know many immigrants or asylum seekers, if you think that they are being “built up” - the majority are good people, are hardworking and there is no fault in pointing this out. If you feel threatened by it, maybe it’s because you are one of the lazy, fat, morons you’re describing…

    8. Puffy — on 13th April, 2007 at 12:25 pm  

      Megan. “You put a poor Asian into England and in one generation they will turn out a professional; a lawyer, a dentist; an accountant. I can’t say that many of the white working classes around me do the same; each generation repeats itself; have lots children young.”

      If I said what I really thought of you, my comment would be deleted. However, as the child of white working class parents who managed, despite my ingrained ignorance, to become a professional, I have to say I am not actually a minority. There are many hundreds of thousands, if not millions like me, who thanks to the comprehensive system and free higher education (before the tories, sorry, Tony Blair, got in) managed to rise above the “place” you think we should know.

      The thing is, to speak to me you wouldn’t know. Cos I ditched the accent, didn’t I. These days the only cockneys I know were all educated at Wellington.

      Your kind (whatever kind you are - upper class snob or plain racist) are the enemy of all the decent working class people of England, regardless of their colour, and always will be. When True Labour came to power in 1945 we had a brief flowering, but the upper classes soon put paid to that - undermining our economic power by smashing the unions, making us feel ashamed of our motives when we questioned the massive immigration and social policies that would destroy our communities. Over the past decade Blair has applied the coup de grace, widening inequality by privatising higher education and making the rest selective by postcode or religion. The final insult: welfare dependency and the only place to turn a bunch of poisonous bigots.

      It was the white working class that built this country, fought and died for it. For their efforts all they have received is contempt both from the upper classes and new immigrants, who don’t seem to grasp that they are as much a tool, and a slave, to the old order as the “chavs” they so despise.

    9. Kismet Hardy — on 13th April, 2007 at 12:31 pm  

      Snobbery is a vice that the British will always be slightly proud of. There’s this show on BBC 3 I think called Never Mind the Fullstops, which i thought I’d love, but it’s an excercise in the educated taking the piss out of the working class. They even have clips where a glaswegian is talking and the panel have to ‘assess’ what he’s really trying to say. It’s always going to be an advantage. Those that can express themselves ‘properly’ will always have the upper hand over those that dwell on the innits.

      While I can abide by feelings of superiority gleaned from better vocabulary and grasp of grammar, it irritates me when the same snobbery filters through to things like fashion and lifestyle. Oh look at Michael Carol. That’s what all yobs do when they come into money. New money, don’t you know Deadre? And when Burberry quite aggressively denounced the chavs’ dastardly bid to claim them (to the point where they actively discouraged chav queens like V Beckham and Coleen McLoughlin from wearing their brand), the snobbery spelled it out: born without class, life without class

      And the reason that ‘chavs’ aren’t getting any sympathy is because the media continues to portray them as violent, thick losers, much like the minstrel caricatures black men were subjected to in yesteryear. With the exception that no one is going out lynching the ‘chavs’, so it’ll remain okay to keep battering them in the media because, hell, they probably can’t read, like

    10. Roger — on 13th April, 2007 at 12:32 pm  

      The white working class and the lumpenproletariat are often confused- the latter are the “benefit fraudsters”. As the last Conservative government spent several years destroying everything- good or bad- that the white working class valued and identified with and the “new” labour party proclaims that they do not represent them it isn’t surprising that they have almost vanished and have taken on many lumpen aspects.

    11. ChrisC — on 13th April, 2007 at 12:33 pm  

      Hasn’t social mobility greatly diminished since selective education / grammar schools were abolished?
      Comprehensives are the enemy of the bright working class.

      But it wasn’t the “upper class” who were responsible for the ills you describe, merely public school educated socialists such as Crosland and Benn.

    12. ChrisC — on 13th April, 2007 at 12:37 pm  

      “Those that can express themselves ‘properly’ will always have the upper hand over those that dwell on the innits.”

      That’s inevitable, isn’t it? And also desireable.

      But I agree not the subject for laughter, except perhaps at those educational theorists who refuse to “impose” the proper teaching of grammar and vocabulary. Whom do they think they are helping exactly?

    13. Roger — on 13th April, 2007 at 12:53 pm  

      Except that “Don’t yer know?” is perceived as being superior to “innit”, regardless of its being equally inexpressive, ChrisC.
      An important difference between the working class as defined now and as it was defined is that the skilled working class has almost been destroyed: the aspiration is supposed to be to cease being working class in conscious identity and to become middle class.
      I think that one reason comprehensives reduced social mobility- if reduce it they did, rather than other concomitant factors- isn’t connected with the education provided but with the attitude taken to grammar school people- they were perceived as already on their way out of the working class and were either encouraged to leave or regarded as nascent class traitors by others the same age. They didn’t have much choice about social mobility.

    14. Kismet Hardy — on 13th April, 2007 at 1:05 pm  

      “An important difference between the working class as defined now and as it was defined is that the skilled working class has almost been destroyed”

      Too true. Back when I was a nipper, I’d think builders, cab drivers and food servers and I’d think: white working class. Now I think: polish, afro-caribbean, sri lankans or what have you.

      Now that the foreigners have taken the lowest paid jobs off the hands off the hands of the white working class, surely that puts them a rung higher, no?

      (for the record, I feel more than a little bit ugly writing this)

    15. Jagdeep — on 13th April, 2007 at 1:18 pm  

      More persecution! Everyone jump up and claim to be persecuted!

      Let’s be honest, everyone can make a good case in 2007 Britain that their race and group are being demonised unfairly and are stereotyped and subject to prejudice. Someone throw me a race or religious group and I’ll rustle up an example of the bigotry they face.

      However, this is more about class than anything else — and the snobbery towards the white working class has always been there from the smarty pants bourgeoisie.

      The assertion that it’s comparable to, say, black or Asian people being stereotyped en masse is just plain wrong, for the reason that the stereotyping and prejudice is emanating from white people themselves. Different kettle of fish.

      There is a similar dynamic amongst British Indians, when middle class Indians sneer and look down on working class Indians, deriding them as freshies (Fresh off the boat) and are embarassed by their Datsuns, ostentatious sofas and gestures, and old school ways. I was listening to some stuck up cow of an Asian author on the BBC Asian Network and you could just tell the contempt she had in her voice for ‘common Asians’ who listen to bhangra and like Bollywood. And I hated that woman, because she was a fucking snob. Same dynamic, same kind of thing, except that the plebian Indians stick two fingers at them back and call them coconuts and pompous bounty bars and it’s all equal.

      Class stereotyping and animosity is still alive folks.

    16. Kismet Hardy — on 13th April, 2007 at 1:21 pm  

      She wasn’t a snob Jagdeep, just deeply ashamed of the people she wants to distance herself from but keeps getting lumped with. Or as I like to call it, a twat.

    17. bananabrain — on 13th April, 2007 at 1:22 pm  

      personally, when i think of the white working-class doing jobs that nobody else will do and worthy of respect, admiration and pride, i think of law enforcement, the emergency services and the armed forces (oh - and a certain amount of agriculture). of course, this won’t be popular with the “progressives”, because we all know they’re a bunch of reactionary, brawling, institutionally racist thugs, aren’t they; we much prefer things like international development charities and human rights lawyers, which, incidentally, are the places where the children of “progressives” are likely to end up working.

      however, i remain of the opinion that until war and crime are abolished entirely these professions ought to be dignified as such. perhaps we can appeal there to an older sentiment, that of the “stout english yeoman”, “hearts of oak” and all of that stuff. it might be corny but when i see the sort of people that are risking their lives in iraq whilst people who work in offices are blackguarding them, impugning their honour and their sense of mission - frankly, it makes me sick. there is such a distaste for the roles of warriors and guardians it appals me - yet at the same time we crave the excitement of this in our entertainment. the world is not a safe place, nor will it be made so by the combined efforts of the health and safety executive, the financial ombudsman and which! magazine - nb, i am not dissing development, charities or human rights, by the way, but arguing that they are just one part of a wider issue; you don’t know what a carrot is unless you recognise that the stick is there as well.

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    18. Kismet Hardy — on 13th April, 2007 at 1:22 pm  

      Although the bit about coconut does make it equal so, yeah, what jagdeep said

    19. Jagdeep — on 13th April, 2007 at 1:25 pm  

      So was it class snobbery or general self hatred? Hard to tell Kismet. Maybe the first leads to the latter.

    20. Kismet Hardy — on 13th April, 2007 at 1:25 pm  

      banana, is hating soldiers that go and kill thousands of innocent people because they were told to by someone they haven’t got the intelligence to argue with really a form of snobbery? I guess some snobbery is good then

    21. Arif — on 13th April, 2007 at 1:30 pm  

      That’s a useful analogy, Jagdeep. And points to how white working class people might be upset with the middle classes for their sneery condescension. But if non-white people join in the sneering, it becomes something a lot uglier, because there is a suspicion about where we are going with our superiority complexes and our fears.

      What is the equivalent to calling people coconuts, if the people who want to fight back are white themselves? It’ll be something like Jade Goody’s observations about learning to speak English, eating with your hands and going to the slums. Bullying/fighting back - it is a thin line, once you stop being polite (hypocritically or not) it becomes an uglier power game, and any expression of how we fear each other and want to overcome this gets lost.

    22. sonia — on 13th April, 2007 at 1:31 pm  

      well Banana has a point - what about all the people who work in the ambulance service!

    23. sonia — on 13th April, 2007 at 1:33 pm  

      jagdeep i hear you about the british indian thing - but honey that’s not much of a surprise is it? have you spent much time in India ? - its much worse. We’re terrible out across the whole indian subcontinent really we are - can’t tolerate a TINY bit of difference, and boy do we look down on our servants.

    24. Chairwoman — on 13th April, 2007 at 1:34 pm  

      Kismet - Don’t be ingenuous. A soldier is a soldier. He/she signs up to go and do the dirty work his/her government sends them to do.

      It’s not about intelligence, it’s what they agree to do when they sign up. And that isn’t just here, it’s universal. And no, hating them for it is not snobbery, it’s just silly.

    25. sonia — on 13th April, 2007 at 1:35 pm  

      a lot of the immigrants over here seem to have not lost that - and at the same time, maybe because of economic influence, feel they’ve climbed up the ladder or something - and become even worse? who knows. this won’t be very flattering to a lot of the British asians - but if we’re going to be honest, a general perspective on British Asians from the ‘real’ desis is the british asians have the worst of the british arrogance and indian intolerance.

      *runs and hides - dont shoot the messenger*

    26. sonia — on 13th April, 2007 at 1:38 pm  

      hating the soldier? that sounds a bit silly - yes. much more sensible to decry the government that sets up such a silly system in the first place

    27. bananabrain — on 13th April, 2007 at 1:42 pm  

      kismet,

      i think you’re missing the point about what a soldier is for. they are there to respect a chain of command -if someone is there to fire something like a patriot anti-missile missile, would you really want them to argue or press the button? moreover, when you need the enemy’s aggressive capacity removed, you need a particular tool. soldiers are not social workers. to quote something i once heard said about the us marine corps, their intended function is basically this:

      Kill People And Blow Stuff Up.

      you may deplore the necessity for this and question it at the appropriate time (which is what representative democracy is for and you will, i’m sure vote against tony blair or whoever you think will be more accountable next time round) but there must be some level of autonomy to go with the strict control of the chain of command as well as all the oversight, independence and so on of non-military functions such as the media and the law. when these two are mixed (such as in embedding, or suing soldiers for things they do as part of soldiering) the independence of both is compromised and you get something that is neither fish nor fowl. if you ask me, we should prize an independent military as well as a free press and an autonomous judiciary.

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    28. bananabrain — on 13th April, 2007 at 1:44 pm  

      unfortunately, the above argument is often reduced to the argument:

      Support Our Troops (and don’t question anything)

      and, of course, the military have abused their privileges in the past and been caught - but then again, so have journalists, although nobody ever seems to pull them up on it.

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    29. Jagdeep — on 13th April, 2007 at 1:49 pm  

      The thing is sonia — I do find all those people who lark about talking about Chav Scum and stereotyping white working class people really distasteful. But it’s not the same as sneering at black or Asian people wholesale. It’s prejudiced and crass stereotyping but it’s on a line with age old class snobbery — only this time it uses examples of social dysfunction as normative life, and that can be dangerous in ways that are off the radar, which is where I agree with Clairwill to some extent. Treat all white working class people as dregs, treat any group of people as dregs, and you start the process of dehumanisation.

      So anyway, before you congratulate me for using the word dehumanisation, lets look at how Indians / Asians play this dynamic out amongst ourselves. Asians have their chavs too — the rudeboys and rudegirls that every refined and educated wine drinking coconut sneers at. But coming from a family that has branches in that very demographic, I have to say that I just melt when I talk to my cousins and nephews and nieces who are like that — they are actually very sweet people who act like that because they have to be tough and slightly hard to survive. Already the stereotype falls apart before my very eyes. Taking examples of social dysfunction like teenage pregancy to be the defining normative characteristic of white working class people is just as crass and wrong. I can understand why a white prole would get vexed at the crass stereotyping of them by middle class white liberal ponces — because when brown middle class ponces sneer at browns who don’t lead the lifestyle they lead it makes my blood boil too.

    30. Leon — on 13th April, 2007 at 1:53 pm  

      I’m sure I’ve read somewhere that soldiers have a legal cover to challenge orders they think are a violation of law?

    31. Jagdeep — on 13th April, 2007 at 1:57 pm  

      and, of course, the military have abused their privileges in the past and been caught - but then again, so have journalists, although nobody ever seems to pull them up on it.

      Sure, but no journalist has ever carried out a My Lai massacre or a Bloody Sunday, for example, so it’s not quite an accurate comparison.

    32. Kismet Hardy — on 13th April, 2007 at 2:03 pm  

      Banana, you’ll always talk more sense than me, but I reserve my right to dislike the thought process that goes behind wanting to be a soldier. And in case this seems veering off topic, it is the working class that go to kill and die (while the prince harries drink the most expensive cocktails on earth). Callous comparison, but a lot of support for the reich came from telling the poor dissafected working class: ‘come join us, we’ll show you a worthy life away from this shit (in sotto voice: that we’ve created for you)’

    33. Kismet Hardy — on 13th April, 2007 at 2:16 pm  

      “I’m sure I’ve read somewhere that soldiers have a legal cover to challenge orders they think are a violation of law?”

      This is about a year old:

      http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=742682006

      But lemme know if that’s changed Leon, cos I couldn’t find it anywhere. Ta

    34. bananabrain — on 13th April, 2007 at 2:17 pm  

      ah, kismet, you’re making me blush.

      look, i do understand how you feel, you know, i can’t understand wanting to be an automaton but the fact is the soldiers i have known and met (not that there are that many, but i’m sure bert preast will back me up on this) are some of the most independent-minded, forthright and perceptive - to say nothing of cynical - people you might wish to meet. this idea that a soldier is some kind of grunting robot that obeys without question is without much basis in fact as far as i know. go and have a look at http://www.arrse.co.uk/ if you don’t believe me. i believe it gets several million hits a month.

      and, to be honest, i believe this is one area where we should go easy on the royals - harry’s going to iraq, after all, andrew flew a helicopter in the falklands and so on - i think they do their bit (for all that they’re not exactly the brightest) more than others if you ask me.

      jagdeep, journalists may not cause massacres, but they certainly share responsibility for lynchings (think paedophile vigilantes) individual murders and terrorism (ooh, i’ll be on the news and then everyone will hear my story and feel sorry for me and my cause) and have hounded people to death in more than one case (think princess diana) to say nothing of all the racist attacks that we can no doubt attribute to anti-immigrant scare stories. then there’s the MMR scandal, stoked by the press, but i think you’ll find i’ve made my point.

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    35. Jagdeep — on 13th April, 2007 at 2:20 pm  

      Always look on the bright side eh BB? Journalists save lives, highlight injustice, rally perscuted people and fight for their rights, and so on and so on. Yes, soldiers do good things too, but the comparison still isnt valid, because journalists don’t torture people occasionally and do other naughty stuff like massacres and stuff. It’s just an imperfect fit of a comparison is all I’m saying.

    36. Leon — on 13th April, 2007 at 2:22 pm  

      From the article Kismet dug up:

      force soldiers to contravene the Nuremberg Principles, limiting their right to becoming conscientious objectors.

      Will have to look into this when I get time…

    37. Kulvinder — on 13th April, 2007 at 2:27 pm  

      Uhm, i disagree. I’m not even sure ‘white working class’ is a meaningful description of any demographic. I’ve said previously that i don’t think theres any such thing as a ‘black people’ and long term a ‘gay culture’ similarly i don’t see what ‘white working class’ is meant to be indicating. My sense of self starts with who i am and progresses to philosophy (libertarianism mainly), i certainly don’t say im ‘brown uppermiddle/middleclass’ etc

      Broadly id agree with Jagdeep, saying every ‘section’ of society is even remotely ‘at threat’ is ridiculous. Infact racism against ‘black’ and ‘asian’ people isn’t really a problem anymore and i laugh at anyone who honestly thinks otherwise - the concept of institutional racism is as idiotically obscure as political correctness - The most targeted community from all other members of society is the traveller community and homophobia especially amongst 2nd and 3rd generation youth in the inner cities is something that is a problem. That is what should be focussed on.

      Besides my anecdotal experience has always been that the ‘relatively wealthier’ members of public are far more likely to be harrased. Its just my experience, but whilst at school i never saw anyone who was ‘poor’ get bullied, it was always the more well off that were picked on, even if they did nothing to emphasise the difference in parental income.

    38. Jagdeep — on 13th April, 2007 at 2:30 pm  

      Kulvinder, that’s bollocks. If you come from an inner city working class background you are more likely to be murdered, attacked, assaulted than someone from a ‘relatively wealthier’ background. I understand you might have been traumatised by some hard and uncouth kids at school but the idea that the poor don’t get bullied or picked on is plain wrong.

    39. Jagdeep — on 13th April, 2007 at 2:33 pm  

      I’ve said previously that i don’t think theres any such thing as a ‘black people’ and long term a ‘gay culture’ similarly i don’t see what ‘white working class’ is meant to be indicating. My sense of self starts with who i am and progresses to philosophy (libertarianism mainly), i certainly don’t say im ‘brown uppermiddle/middleclass’ etc

      Just because you don’t say it doesnt mean others don’t, or that it’s somehow wrong of them to claim and feel an actual identity along those lines.

      Oh yeah, one more thing.

      Death to Libertarians!!!!

    40. Kulvinder — on 13th April, 2007 at 2:33 pm  

      Can you imagine the uproar if someone argued that UK born blacks were sub-literate lazy morons who should be deported to make way for hard working white immigrants?

      My relatives say that all the time :) but about other ‘asians’ as well. Polish immigrants have been much appreciated lately.

    41. Kismet Hardy — on 13th April, 2007 at 2:35 pm  

      “whilst at school i never saw anyone who was ‘poor’ get bullied”

      Yeah. Like the kid wearing hi-tecs would always get respect from the ones that can afford Nikes…

    42. Kismet Hardy — on 13th April, 2007 at 2:38 pm  

      (PS. I don’t ‘hate’ soldiers. But I do think the working class are more likely to find self-worth in serving Queen and country, which irks me is all. I don’t hate anyone. Except boys in clown masks appearing by the foot of my bed but that’s a different horror story altogether)

    43. Soso — on 13th April, 2007 at 2:54 pm  

      The probleme is not that native Britians won’t take menial jobs, rather they won’t take those jobs because the pay is too damned low.

      Immigration is a good thing, but we should not allow our elites to abuse it as a method of bidding down overall wage structures.

      British construction sites are now full of ex communist blok workers, who are white by the way, and who are willing to work, seeings they’re from poorer countries, for lower wages. They do so because in their minds it’s a step up from the virtual serfdom they once endured. Any savings for house-buyers that should result from those lower wage stuctures are simply pocketed by the bosses.

      It’s a chaotic free-for-all that will be very unhealthy in the long run.

    44. Kulvinder — on 13th April, 2007 at 2:56 pm  

      Kulvinder, that’s bollocks. If you come from an inner city working class background you are more likely to be murdered, attacked, assaulted than someone from a ‘relatively wealthier’ background.

      Maybe i don’t know, but not because they were poor. I don’t see any signs of vigilantism based on wealth, and unless we’re taking the discussion on a tangent im not sure what your point is.

      Just because you don’t say it doesnt mean others don’t, or that it’s somehow wrong of them to claim and feel an actual identity along those lines.

      Good thing i never said it was wrong then! If you want to call yourself a black person and somehow connect the vast ethnic and cultural communities of africa in terms of melanin then be my guest. I’m not trying to prevent anyone from doing that (to be fair you never suggested i was) simply trying to understand why.

      Yeah. Like the kid wearing hi-tecs would always get respect from the ones that can afford Nikes…

      You were allowed to wear trainers at school?!! But yeah if we’re talking in terms of ‘class controntation’ most of what i witnessed was the other way around.

    45. A councillor writes — on 13th April, 2007 at 2:57 pm  

      I will admit to being of white working class stock, escaping the council estate via parental ambition and education into being a throughly middle class adult.

      However, I will never forget where I came from and I will never forget the debt I owe my parents (despite the immensely frigid relations between us) for pushing me at the books.

      I now represent an area which is predominately still white working class, with a couple of middle-class strips and a smaller cosmopolitan area.

      Many of the skilled factory jobs their parents did have gone over the 80′s and 90′s as have the factories. What is left is retail and service work and in the latter, they can and are easily replaced with those that will work for the minimum wage - it’s awfully easy to fire someone now, especially with no unions especially with no unions at most of the service employers. However, most of them tend to stay in some sort of employment and whilst unemployment is above the city average, it’s not that bad, although there is a growing gender gap. Oh and it isn’t just the whites who are unemployed, it affects Black and Kashmiris as well.

      However, they aren’t earning very much and their employment is unstable and have difficulty finding accomodation away from home. The council house waiting lists aren’t for them, they are for the very overcrowded, the statutory homeless and those with serious illness and because of that community cohesion is being destroyed - there’s very little chance of someone being housed anywhere near their family or friends. With the wages they are on, they can forget about buying, even with the con-jobs of shared ownership.

      They’ve seen millions pumped into the city centre to regenerate it (quite succesfully), they have seen millions pumped into the inner cities to regenerate them (not so succesfully), they have see sweet fa pumped into their areas to do anything about the problems there.

      Benefit fraud, yes, it’s out there, but it’s not as common as you’d think and it certainly isn’t an all-white phenomenon. Teenage pregnancies, yes, we have lots of those, but don’t forget that includes married teenage pregancies and they are mainly smart enough to know that a baby won’t bring them a council house as easily as it did 10 years ago and if it does, it’s one bed highrise far away from where they are.

      On bringing back grammar schools, I went to one and gained the benefit of it. There are a number in this city, they are excellent, but the standard to get in is very high and middle-class kids are these days better prepared and tutored to gain those places. When working class kids get in, they often feel uncomfortable, especially as the grammar schools are expensive places to be these days. Education might be free, all the “extras” aren’t. I’d rather have more comprehensives brought up to the standards of the ones in my area (and pushed even higher).

      These people’s parents and grandparents were the vanguard of the proletariat, skilled high-wage working class people, with hopes, ambitions and dreams. Now due to economic change, their fortunes have fallen and they are increasingly treated as a lumpenproletariat and unwanted in their own country.

      Last year, the BNP came third in my area with just under 20% of the vote. For a number of reasons, I expect them to do better this year possibly even taking second place, The constant knocking of them will be one of the reasons why. The best thing is, the BNP hate them as well, but they are clever enough to realise that they make good footsoldiers.

    46. Jagdeep — on 13th April, 2007 at 3:00 pm  

      Ominous final paragraph, Mr Councillor, lots of food for thought too thanks.

      My cousins in Birmingham come from low income families, parents taxi drivers and factory workers, but they got into grammar school and are doing really well. And they’re getting an education they just wouldnt even come close to at the local comprehensive. Just how exactly do you get the standards up?

    47. Jagdeep — on 13th April, 2007 at 3:06 pm  

      But that question belongs on another thead. There’s loads in your thread that gives insights on these things.

    48. A councillor writes — on 13th April, 2007 at 3:23 pm  

      Jagdeep - that would be a very interesting thread. I’m no educational expert, I just know I have two good comprehensives that are doing better year on year. My supposed expertise (as a councillor) is in housing and transportation issues.

      Also, I know it’s something that isn’t easy to say, but I think that there are different dynamics to how different groups of people will treat education and what they will give up for it. White working class groupings may be at the lowest end of the “give up” scale, possibly because they did so well in past times by not having to be so well educated, even 20 years ago the area had very high wages for very low levels of education.

    49. Jagdeep — on 13th April, 2007 at 3:29 pm  

      You bring an insight into the complexity of it all Mr Councillor.

    50. Ramiie — on 13th April, 2007 at 6:10 pm  

      The white working class are pig ignorant crypto fascists who deserve the shite thats being piled on the.In this racist land of white-first opportunities (hiding behind anti racist and equal opportunities legislation) whites who are too thick to pick up the goodwill blank cheques that’s thrown at them from eveary angle should hardly concern the likes of you, or me, a black man.

    51. Clairwil — on 13th April, 2007 at 6:15 pm  

      Megan,
      Exactly what is your problem? Why the aggression?
      On what exactly are you basing your stupid assertions?
      Let me take some of your ‘points’.

      You state that a huge majority of the white people who live around you have three to six children and claim benefits. Well all I can say is that I had no idea Manchester was so poor. I work in one of the poorest areas in western Europe 98% white and over 70% of the population are in full time work! Who knew we were so successful?

      Your comparison between Asian immigrants and U.K born whites is absurd. Immigrants tend to go abroad with the aim of improving their lot and may well be more adept at spotting opportunities that we take for granted. Most of my relatives who emigrated are doing better in their chosen country than they ever did here.

      ‘Isn’t that just YOUR racist reaction? I doubt you know many immigrants or asylum seekers, if you think that they are being “built up” - the majority are good people, are hardworking and there is no fault in pointing this out. If you feel threatened by it, maybe it’s because you are one of the lazy, fat, morons you’re describing…’

      Can you supply evidence of my racism? I write regularly for this site which does not so far as I am aware allow itself to be used to pursue a racist agenda. My full job title is ‘Refugee Support Worker’, I know many asylum seekers through my job both as clients and in a social capacity. In addition to my paid work I have in the recent past done voluntary work with an asylum seeker befriending project and an ESOL project. I am still in touch socially with the people I worked with on these projects. I have never been accused of racism or misconduct of any kind towards any clients I have dealt with. In all honesty I don’t feel I fit the profile of the typical racist.

      I do not personally feel threatened by anyone’s attitude towards the white working classes. My concern is that in areas where there is an element of racial tension it might be better to ask why people lack ambition, why they are on benefits and seek to address these problems, rather than dismiss the natives as trash and compare them unfavourably to immigrants.

      As for me being a fat, lazy, moron. I am unclear on what relevance my weight and attitude to work is here. I did however enjoy a chuckle at being called a moron by someone with such a weak grasp of spelling and grammar. Were you educated?

    52. Chairwoman — on 13th April, 2007 at 6:16 pm  

      Ramiie - So it’s ok for you to spout racist claptrap about white people, but not alright for them to spout racist claptrap about black people.

      Got it.

    53. Ms_Xtreme — on 13th April, 2007 at 6:25 pm  

      I helped my sister do a whole study around mental health clients and a interesting theory became prevalent throughout the study.

      Ethnic minorities class any White individual as being in a “priveleged” class. Meaning there’s some rights that the whites living here have the luxury of being born with which ethnic minorities have to work for. If you want details to the study, I’ll send it to you Sunny.

      However, speaking in this, it’s an absurd mentality to have. EVERY person who lives in the UK is different than the next. Laziness is not a race specific problem. Laziness, and what I like to call pwincess mentality comes from social status. The higher someone gets in power (ie: money), the more different they’ll get to those who are lower on the food chain. For instance, if a rich person cannot take their rubbish out to the curb, and hires someone to do that, they’ll be viewed as being lazy by someone who can’t afford that.

      I think its completely insensitive, and hypocritical for other races to pick at the white people and then roar when something like this happens to themselves. If we fight for someone else’s rights, someone else will fight for ours one day too.

      /Muskaan

    54. Ramiie — on 13th April, 2007 at 7:04 pm  

      Chairwoman,
      My racism is as effective as an armalite rifle made from playdo.Cant say the same about the racism of any group that you might happen to chair.

      BTW, dont hold back if you feel the urge ( to spout racist diatribe at me) because nothing you could say would be shockingly unfamiliar. And we Africans are well experienced in answering back.

      But back to the topic (actually before I do , I must tell you how I really detest the arrogant, well oiled kneejerk practised by the likes of you: “So it’s ok for you to spout racist claptrap about white people, but not alright for them to spout racist claptrap about black people” as if we are to blame for inventing and institutionalising anti african racism!)
      everyday I wake up in this country I am shown and made to listen to evidence of “my inferiority.” I flick on the telly, switch on the radio ad nauseum, the picture/records sticks, and, there is not a damn thing I can do about it. Does it make me care diddly squat about white trauma? Mote to the point does it make me care what a non person like you thinks?

    55. El Cid — on 13th April, 2007 at 7:09 pm  

      I don’t think I’m going to express this very well, but I’m going to give it a go.
      I think the issue of prejudice against the white working class is a bit confused. There are elements of classism, moral cowardice, and racism, depending on the perpetrator.
      Frankly, I don’t like snobbery if it’s used as a cover for holding people back or to demonise a subset of society, but neither do I like pandering to the lowest common denominator.
      I’m also not keen on censoring comedy which is funny. At the end of the day the biggest fans of Little Britain et al are the white working class. We can’t blame David Walliams or Matt Lucas for being white, which is why most of their characters are white. Likewise, I remember 3 Non-Blondes and Goodness Gracious Me (less so), having characters who represented black and Asian chav.
      You’re right for highlighting the revolting hypocrisy of some members of the white liberal middle classes. I think it’s what cheeses off many ordinary white folk, even those who might be a little racist and potential BNP targets. The issue is one of consistency, or inconsistency. If you are going to thinks about white people as paedophiles or drunken asbo-loving thickos or benefit spongers or whatever, then you should be able to talk about black muggers or asian terrorists. Better still, why not do none of these things and avoid such rank and offensive generalisations.

    56. El Cid — on 13th April, 2007 at 7:14 pm  

      Ramiee, I don’t think you would have fared very well even in a black-first environment.
      Now funkg, he was a smart cookie — wonder where he’s got to.

    57. Katy Newton — on 13th April, 2007 at 7:15 pm  

      Cant say the same about the racism of any group that you might happen to chair.

      The reason the Chairwoman calls herself the Chairwoman is because she is chronically disabled, has very limited mobility and is confined to a chair.

      Mote to the point does it make me care what a non person like you thinks?

      It’s amazing that you feel qualified to criticise other people for crass generalisations when crass generalisations are all you’ve offered so far.

      It’s just as well most people aren’t like you, really.

    58. Katy Newton — on 13th April, 2007 at 7:20 pm  

      Clairwil, this is an excellent post. It’s a shame that one or two idiots seem to have taken it as a licence to prove the points you’ve made. My only criticism is that you forgot to mention that most people who meet you for the first time don’t think you’re a day over seventeen.

    59. ZinZin — on 13th April, 2007 at 7:30 pm  

      Chairwoman
      Britain is 90% white and I live in a town that is predominately white 98.8% at the last census.

      The middle classes who run the race relation industry patronise ethnic minorities thanking them for bringing some “colour” to their areas while sneering at the WWC. I have recieved some diversity training as a Local government employee at which a smug woman expressed her pleasure at the rising number of BME restaurants opening up in a town thats is 99.98% white.

      Also there is the eugenics angle.

    60. sonia — on 13th April, 2007 at 7:46 pm  

      55. very well put El Cid

    61. El Cid — on 13th April, 2007 at 7:50 pm  

      Actually ZinZin, maybe I’m a little guilty (I prefer honesty even to consistency — well, we’re not robots are we?). Actually, I was thinking a few years back about moving out to the burbs, but I felt a little uncomfortable because it was too white, in fact too english (all classes mind). I guess, it’s what you’re used to. Back to the drawing board huh?
      Although, what’s wrong with being pleased about greater restaurant choice? Shouldn’t we stay focused on what matters?

    62. ZinZin — on 13th April, 2007 at 8:04 pm  

      El Cid the reference to the BME restaurants by the leader of a diversity session at my induction day as a council employee was frankly embarrasing. The thanking them for introducing “colour” to their area was what a lecturer at my uni actually said.

      I was hoping to open up a new area of debate. That middle class enthusiasm for multiculturalism is rather shallow they love BME restaurants but live in all white areas. They may be more likely to leave if a WWC person moved in next door. My aunt who lives on the Wirral was very worried that a couple from a council estate were moving in to their street

    63. Riley Bornpoor — on 13th April, 2007 at 8:04 pm  

      I emigrated from Britain many years ago.
      Why ?
      Well you see I was a conscript, had the highest scores for everything in my intake. I went to before a board that made selections for officer training, where I was told that it would be unthinkable that I could become an officer. Why sir, because you have a cockney accent and it just wouldn’t do.
      The funny thing was another conscript from Kenya who was black was accepted perhaps because he had a an accent that was closer to an oxford accent than mine.
      It is all class.
      I discovered in the country to which I had emmigrated the same kind of attitudes that existed in the U.K, but since I wasn’t a citizen I couldn’t care less.
      My attitude was to forget about my workmates and do only those things from which I would receive benefit.
      No militant unionism for me, no politics, no socialisng, just concentrate on aquisition.
      No use emmigrating if you carry on the same way as you did in the old country, if you want to “get on” the best thing is to become a selfish individual, of course the native won’t like you, but you can laugh on your way to the bank, even if you do have to work for below the locals regularly accepted wage and cut their living standard by doing so. After all they can always work for less.

    64. Gibs — on 13th April, 2007 at 8:46 pm  

      It seems that “representatives” of the White Working Class are the latest additions to the long list of “representatives” who have declared that the groups they claim to “represent” are being persecuted.

      Others in that list include:

      a) Jewish lobby groups who have claimed that anti Semitism is becoming “respectable” in Britain.

      b) Several “leading” Muslims who have claimed that it is “open season” on Muslims.

      c) Some Hindu organisation which recently claimed that Hindus feel “neglected”.

      d) A survey commisioned by a Christian organisation which claimed that Christians felt “discriminated against”.

      e) More than one newspaper columnist claiming that the “white middle class middle aged man” was feeling oppressed by “political correctness gone mad” in the workplace (the most overused phrase in UK today).

      f) The head of an anti immigration lobby group always claiming that “the government is trying to shut down debate on the issue” (well nobody ever managed to get him to shut his gob !!!).

      My message to all these diverse characters (all claiming to be a representatives of “Britain’s Most Persecuted”) is a simple one - STOP WHINGING !!!!

    65. El Cid — on 13th April, 2007 at 8:51 pm  

      ZinZin
      I remember being at an NUJ meeting. I can’t remember what we were cross about. But I remember the chairwoman — actually, that wasn’t her title, something really silly like brown owl, or whatever — anyway, she said something like “What do the management think, we’re thinking, gentlefolk, not hod carriers.” That really got my goat. I’m surprised I’m still a member.

    66. lithcol — on 13th April, 2007 at 9:16 pm  

      Thank you Clairwil. The responses you have elicited have revealed the underlying prejudices of a number of respondents on this site. The breathtaking insouciance of some in ascribing to the so called working class as a whole a long list of negative attributes leads me to question their intelligence not to mention their humanity.

    67. ZinZin — on 13th April, 2007 at 9:19 pm  

      As I tuck into my baked potato and baked beans at the Farmhouse Kitchen restaurant, I ask Melanie Lowes how Easington is coping with being the least diverse place in the country. She tells me that as a former mining area it has found it hard to attract ethnic minorities. The council is making efforts - the smoking room was recently converted into a prayer room. What I find fascinating is how she feels she needs to apologise for Easington’s whiteness, as if this is in itself something to be condemned. I find myself defending Easington to its tourist officer: this is an area with a proud white working-class heritage. I tell her; it should be allowed to celebrate this just as other areas celebrate their multiculturalism.

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/britain/article/0,,1964987,00.html

    68. Halima — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:03 pm  

      This is the subject of Geoff Dench and Kate Gavron’s book on the New East End (2006) - Family, Kinship and Belonging, published by the Young Foundation, as a kind of update to Willmott and Young’s famous study on families in Bethnal Green many years ago which informed thinking on sociology.

      The New East End is now courting controversy for touching on some of these troubling discussions on race, belonging, entitlement and the welfare state.

      My own view is that talking about class is nothing new or ground-breaking - it’s always around us, it informs how we relate to each other, whose image we recruit it, and how we peddle meritocracy in this country and feel morally superior.

      I don’t like discourses on victimhood much but completely sympathese with the complaints of poor people if they are not seeing their needs met by the state - what I don’t like is when minority groups are made scapegoats for the failure of state responsibility.

      If the welfare state isn’t up to speed to deliver servcies to the poor and vulnerable, it isn’t because foreigners have crowded out limited public resources. There is more to this country’s troubles than this old bogeyman.

    69. The iLL Man — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:07 pm  

      Excellent article. Jarred and jabbed at me in places, uncomfortable since said white middle class snobbery is in me and leaks out all over the place sometimes. My feeling is that it’s an over compensation by many for racism suffered by immigrants, whilst conveniently providing a safe target for their own feelings of disgust and revulsion that wouldn’t normally be expressed outside of, say, a football ground.

      Thinking about it, the past thirty (or more) years of government in this country seem to have revolved around finding the most effective way of ignoring poverty………….

    70. Clairwil — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:11 pm  

      Chris C

      “The white working classes are given no credit for doing work that is dirty, tiring , often demeaning and almost always poorly paid”

      I see no evidence of them doing any such work in London. Nor the black working class for that matter.

      Well I see plenty evidence of it in Glasgow. The bin men, cleaners, road sweepers, security guards I come into contact with are mainly white Scots. In addition the area I work in if full of white working class people who have set up many valuable voluntary projects, staffed by mainly white working class volunteers. In the last two years I know of three people who have received honours for their unpaid work in the community and many more who deserve to be honoured. Not to mention the huge working class presence in the army, caring , trades, transport, the police force etc.

      I don’t know where you get the idea that I wish to ‘ban’ Vicky Pollard. I did not refer to or advocate any legislative solution. I was merely criticising the way in which some people are prepared to tolerate the most wicked abuse directed against the poor, when they would be the first to condemn similar remarks directed against almost any other group.

      ‘But I agree not the subject for laughter, except perhaps at those educational theorists who refuse to “impose” the proper teaching of grammar and vocabulary. Whom do they think they are helping exactly?’

      -Spot on.

      Jagdeep

      I didn’t claim anyone was being persecuted. I criticised a rather unpleasant strain of colour and class snobbery.

      Some good points though.

      Kulvinder

      Infact racism against ‘black’ and ‘asian’ people isn’t really a problem anymore and i laugh at anyone who honestly thinks otherwise

      Are you sure? I can’t count the number of racist remarks I’ve heard in the last few months. To my deep shame my mum wants to move because there are ‘too many pakis’ in her street and has an agreement with a number of likeminded neighbours to sell their houses to whites. That’s in addition to several racist attacks that have occurred here recently.

      ‘i never saw anyone who was ‘poor’ get bullied, it was always the more well off that were picked on, even if they did nothing to emphasise the difference in parental income.’

      Well I saw plenty of it at school and I seem to remember the nearby private school used to refer as state school pupils as ‘povs’ and ‘schemies’.

      El Cid

      Although, what’s wrong with being pleased about greater restaurant choice? Shouldn’t we stay focused on what matters?

      A fine point well made.

      Thanks for commenting (almost) everyone. Trolls excepted this has been an intersting thread.

    71. Clairwil — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:12 pm  

      or an interesting one….

    72. Ramiie — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:17 pm  

      Sonia and El Cid - you are both as predictable as the presence of the BNP at a Newham Bye-election. And El Cid it’s Ramiie - get it right. The idea that the white working class are a special case is an ancient turd which Mosley, the NF, Combat 88 and the BNP have been holding up for yonks. What I find interesting is why, at this point in history, should the chattering classes seek to pick up cudgels on behalf of that rancid lot. Perhaps its just what we blacks have always thought, mug a liberal and you’ve recruited a crypto fascist to ranks of the responsible right.

      Anyway…let me take a little time out to warn the porsche driving asians on this site who may think that sharing the fantasies of the spire dreaming sentimental white left would protect them from the inevitable whitelash over 7/7. I dont think so. The English never forgets. Futhermore, the last thing they want is a brown or a black to feel pity for them. This race didn’t conquer, rape and humiliate half of the globe for centuries to now accept the condescension of sub human species, and in their own land! The white poor are class to watch and prepare for - their rage is that which fuels the nastier elements of this society. They are not nice, and its not your place to be sentimental about them.

      BTW - a liberalfascist in a chair or in a Chair is neither here nor there with me.

      RAMIIE

    73. Kulvinder — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:28 pm  

      Are you sure? I can’t count the number of racist remarks I’ve heard in the last few months. To my deep shame my mum wants to move because there are ‘too many pakis’ in her street and has an agreement with a number of likeminded neighbours to sell their houses to whites. That’s in addition to several racist attacks that have occurred here recently.

      Pretty much yeah, i have no desire to start witchhunting people into thinking in certain ways so i don’t want to see every last person start being ‘anti-racist’. Your mother was brought up in a different time and hence has different views to you (i’m in no way patronising her). The relative progression from one generation to the next is whats most important.

      Institutional racism doesn’t exist anymore, and even if it did it would be failry easy to put right, those that use it as a banner are really no better than those ‘on the other side’ that shout political correctness gone mad. I really don’t want to see an increase of instances like welsh chief constables investigating tv show hosts - let alone the prime minister - for being ‘anti-welsh’.

    74. William — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:30 pm  

      The denigration of the white “lower classes” has got way out of line with the media and the press and it seems any member of any race who consider themselves better can join in the “denigrate the sub humans.”

      I confess I am wee bit guilty myself although nowhere near to the extent of what is going on these days.

      I admit also there are places I would not like to live and peeople I would not like to live near to.

      It seems as long as some of the white lower classes display roughness, coarseness, crime, living off benefits, more teenage pregnancy it acts as a green light to go beyond justified criticism into some kind of what is sometimes a kind of psychological scapegoating. Lets us all feel better by seeing the worst in the easiest group to fit those ideas of the worst. Perhaps sometimes we need to be more mature.

    75. Kulvinder — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:30 pm  

      The English never forgets.

      I’m English. When the ‘whitelash’ comes i’ll remember to punch myself in the face.

    76. Halima — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:32 pm  

      Institutional racism does not exist anymore?

      Not sure I would agree.

      The trails following the MacPherson report and the Stephen Lawrence Enquiry are still very recent events.

    77. Kulvinder — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:33 pm  

      The denigration of the white “lower classes” has got way out of line with the media and the press

      examples?

    78. ZinZin — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:35 pm  

      Ramiee
      Ever heard of the Tolpuddle martyers, the chartists, Trade unionists, socialism and the Labour party?

      Its white people as devils for you if I spoke about black people in the same way you would scream racist at the top of your lungs? Twat.

      As for poor whites as rancid I actually know poor whites . I work in a day centre for the learning disabled, the carers are mostly WWC women who are low paid but committed and caring people who form close bonds with those in their care they could work in easier jobs at the same pay rate but they don’t. For you to call them rancid is appalling.

      Ramiie you live in a country thats 90% white and i live in a town that is 98.8% white. Care to come to my workplace and deliver those words to those WWC women?

    79. Kulvinder — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:37 pm  

      The trails following the MacPherson report and the Stephen Lawrence Enquiry are still very recent events.

      I disagree, its been some years; regardless wasn’t that to do with police corruption??

      What exactly do you mean by ‘institutional racism’? its this ill defined all encompassing blob like PCGM that doesn’t say anything but suggests a lot.

    80. Ramiie — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:38 pm  

      Kulvinder..institutional racism doesn’t exist anymore..it’s being called something else. You meant that, right?

    81. Ramiie — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:39 pm  

      zinzin, care to come to my place and deliver yours?

    82. ZinZin — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:41 pm  

      Gladly. Shithouse

    83. Kulvinder — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:43 pm  

      Kulvinder..institutional racism doesn’t exist anymore..it’s being called something else. You meant that, right?

      No i mean the police are totalitarian arseholes and any society thats increasingly having to rely on them or seeing an increase in their numbers is fubared BUT they’re equal opportunity arseholes. They aren’t singling out anyone they’re just shit.

    84. Clairwil — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:43 pm  

      ‘porsche driving asians on this site’

      It’s worse than that. They wear top hats and smoke cigars!

    85. William — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:49 pm  

      Ramiie

      Racism is about otherising people. You are obviously very good at that. Are you sure you should not look into yourself and sort that out.

    86. Halima — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:51 pm  

      No - the Macpherson report recommended changes that permeated beyond the Met & gave expression to levels of institutional racism that persist in orgs - whether this is witting or unwitting. So it was recommended that public agencies will act in ways to prevent instititutional racism or discriminiation from taking place.

      You are right, though, it started with police curroption but as the whole farce relating to Stephen Lawrence’s muder sparked a deeper debate about white racism in this country, it was also taken as an opporunity to revise the Race Relations Act - the amendement took place in 2001.

      The Race Relations Act and its Amendement related to all public bodies - not just the police services.

      Here is the blurb from the beeb:

      LEGAL CHANGES

      As well as recommendations relating to the police, the Macpherson report also proposed changing some laws.

      The most controversial proposal was to amend the law of ‘double jeopardy’ so that in certain circumstances a person could be tried twice for the same crime.

      In March this year, the Law Commission (the statutory body charged with recommending legal reforms to government) backed the proposal. A response from government is expected by the autumn.

      A second controversial proposal - that of making the use of racist language in private a criminal offence - is also being considered.

      Critics have said this would be a contravention of an individual’s human right to freedom of expression.

      But the government has said it might change the law in particular cases such as where a neighbour hurls racist abuse at another through a shared wall.

      Concrete action has already been taken on one of the report’s key proposals - strengthening the Race Relations Act.

      The new law, which comes into effect from April 2001, extends the 1976 Act to cover public authorities and bodies.

      It will oblige major central and local government bodies, the police and educational establishments to ensure their workforce reflects their communities, and that policies and practices do not indirectly discriminate.

      The change will mean that admission policies to schools and police stop-and-search operations could be investigated by the Commission for Racial Equality.

      *****

      Now one could argue that these measures have been superceded by anti-terrorism laws.

      I’m inclined to argue that institutional racism is on the increase as a result of anti-terrorism laws but somehow our perceptions what is accceptable behavour to minorities has changed to the mindset we carry now as a nation from the 9/11 trauma.

    87. ZinZin — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:52 pm  

      Ramiie
      Easy mouthing off on a blog come to my workplace and say those words.

    88. Clairwil — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:54 pm  

      Raniie,
      Who is arguing that the WWC are a special case? I’m not, I’m just asking for them the accorded the same respect as we wicked liberals think everyone else should be.

      You describe the white, working classes as a rancid lot. Had you applied that remark to any other ethnic group on this site, you would have been banned by now.

      ‘we blacks have always thought, mug a liberal and you’ve recruited a crypto fascist to ranks of the responsible right‘

      Wow! Do you speak for all blacks? What a responsibility, no wonder you‘re so crabbit.

      For the record I have never dreamt of a spire and I am not English.

    89. Ramiie — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:55 pm  

      zinbin
      hardly a shithouse, I can assure you.

    90. Chairwoman — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:56 pm  

      ‘What I find interesting is why, at this point in history, should the chattering classes seek to pick up cudgels on behalf of that rancid lot.’

      Perhaps it’s their turn.

      Chair Liberalfascist

    91. ZinZin — on 13th April, 2007 at 10:57 pm  

      Ramiie
      Do you accept the challenge? You have ignored it thus far. I have accepted yours. Shithouse

    92. Kulvinder — on 13th April, 2007 at 11:13 pm  

      No - the Macpherson report recommended changes that permeated beyond the Met & gave expression to levels of institutional racism that persist in orgs - whether this is witting or unwitting…

      …I’m inclined to argue that institutional racism is on the increase as a result of anti-terrorism laws

      Yeah but what is institutional racism? You seem to be suggesting its to do with profiling which is fine, but the term ‘racism’ wouldn’t make sense with crimes that have nothing to do with race.

    93. Halima — on 13th April, 2007 at 11:16 pm  

      Hi Kulvinder, yes, it did ocur to me I didn’t answer you question.

      The Macpherson report defines institutional racism as:

      The collective failure of an organisation to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture or ethnic origin. It can be seen or detected in processes, attitudes and behaviour which amount to discrimination through unwitting prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness and racist stereotyping which disadvantage minority ethnic people.

    94. Kulvinder — on 13th April, 2007 at 11:18 pm  

      nb if it is to do with profiling, would you accept its use both ways? Is it institutionally racist for police officers to ask a girl crying in despair at heathrow if shes ok, on the presumption of forced marriage?

    95. Kulvinder — on 13th April, 2007 at 11:20 pm  

      The collective failure of an organisation to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture or ethnic origin. It can be seen or detected in processes, attitudes and behaviour which amount to discrimination through unwitting prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness and racist stereotyping which disadvantage minority ethnic people.

      I’d just call that unprofessionalism.

    96. Halima — on 13th April, 2007 at 11:24 pm  

      Your last point touches on the limitations with race relations legislation , it indeed covers race, but some would argue, and I am in this camp, that people are sometimes are discriminated against because of their religion - which isn’t always a proxy for colour as race relations advocates would suggest.

      So if there are numbers of people disporportionately are ‘detected in processes, attitudes and behavoiours which amount to discrimination through unwitting prejudice etc’ due to in this case our national response to 9/11 and how we might now profile certain groups more due to their ethnicity and religion - isn’t that getting close to the definition provided by Macpherson?

      I think this is the challenge being posed to the Race Relations Act at the moment when people seek protection from religious forms of discrimination and the Home Office isnt budging on this for the moment - though I think this is a matter of time as some religoius groups can claim protection under the law so it won’t take long to use precedent and mount a challenge on the human rights front possibly, I don’t know, perhaps this is what they are at the moment.

    97. Halima — on 13th April, 2007 at 11:27 pm  

      Unprofessionalism lays blame on individauls. The authors behind the Macpherson were interested in ways to bring about more accountability for why this failurs can take place. It’s more about corporate responsibility for letting instititional failures takes place.

      Agreed it’s unprofessionalism but when unprofessionalism is related to certain groups all the time we can’t keep insisting it’s bad customer service.

    98. Halima — on 13th April, 2007 at 11:31 pm  

      post 94

      Police would only be able to act on those terms if they suspect girl is a minor in which case it’s about child protection, and if it’s not a minor, the same rules as traffiking would apply.

      Institutional racism isn’t a perfect concept but it is a resonse to imperfections in British society. Perhaps it will disappear one day as you say.

    99. Kulvinder — on 13th April, 2007 at 11:36 pm  

      It’s more about corporate responsibility for letting instititional failures takes place.

      Hasn’t this now been superseded by ‘unfit for purpose’?

      Besides what does ‘corporate responsibility’ mean? There was a recent report describing schools as IR, yet the schools are required to follow the NC and policies as set out by the DoE. If it isn’t the individuals but the policies, then isn’t the government IR?

    100. Kulvinder — on 13th April, 2007 at 11:41 pm  

      Police would only be able to act on those terms if they suspect girl is a minor in which case it’s about child protection, and if it’s not a minor, the same rules as traffiking would apply.

      That wasn’t my question, you’re taking the concept of ‘profiling/attitudes’ inclusive of all police staff that do it (‘collective failure’ etc) only in the negative sense, isn’t it equally ‘institutionally racist’ for all the officers to work in the same way but in a case where the victim is a member of an ethnic minority?

      I’m well aware of the problems of profiling, and why a professional police force is required, but the term IR means nothing to me unless you’re willing to apply it consistently.

    101. Refresh — on 13th April, 2007 at 11:46 pm  

      Clairwil, a well presented argument for the issue.

      Best response has been, to my mind, from ill man.

      Ignoring poverty (worse, ignoring people who are poor) is at the heart of this whole issue.

      In a democracy votes count. In a two-party state, each side looks after its own. But 18-years of Thatcherism destroyed that. And Blair recognised that not only did he need Thatchers children but he could gamble with his core supporters. Which is precisely what he has done - leaving this indeterminate feeling of disappointment - and an ‘underclass’.

      However having said that, snobbery is the most appalling trait and it cuts across all races and communities.

      My closest friends are Sikhs - and one of them shocked me when he derided (in passing) someone by calling him untouchable.

      The other’s mum is such a dreadful snob, to the embarrassment of his son. And I suppose that sort ot attitude also informs their relations within families and I know they are not a happy bunch. She’ll probably end up sad and lonely.

      Back to the working class - I am working class. And I really can’t appreciate these Asians with their flash cars. If there is an attitude behind it.

      I can be snobbish too - can’t stand bhangra and bollywood. Probably because it is actually dreadful. They’re always singing about raising the roof (or is it the floorboards) or something. Or worse looking out for the “ghori”.

      I really can’t cope with anyone sneering at checkout girls for presumably lack of ambition or intelligence.

      My dustbin men do a great job, as do the builders re-roofing my house, plumbers etc fantastic.

      I have no time for Loadsamoneys and Hoorayhenries.

      The Councillor Calls- very good post. Thanks

    102. Halima — on 13th April, 2007 at 11:50 pm  

      This isn’t my comfort zone at all but let me try and think through what it could mean….

      Maybe it’s getting close to the idea of accountability, corporate accountability is about

      * aggregating acts or discriminations of more than one individual

      * tracing chain of responsibility to the top

      * It’s about admiting liability of orgs and holding it to account for it’s duty of care , and perhaps, relates to criminal liability, too, if this is relevant.

    103. Halima — on 13th April, 2007 at 11:52 pm  

      “I have no time for Loadsamoneys and Hoorayhenries”

      Sums it all up for me.

    104. Kulvinder — on 13th April, 2007 at 11:54 pm  

      However having said that, snobbery is the most appalling trait and it cuts across all races and communities.

      I’m a snob. A fairly proud one. If u tlk or wrt lk dis neva mnd da waiz u spk im gna lk dwn on u 4 bng un idot n a mmber of da untermensch n wats mre u can fing agin if u fing im give u ma sprm. Innit.

    105. Kulvinder — on 13th April, 2007 at 11:59 pm  

      Maybe it’s getting close to the idea of accountability, corporate accountability is about

      * aggregating acts or discriminations of more than one individual

      * tracing chain of responsibility to the top

      * It’s about admiting liability of orgs and holding it to account for it’s duty of care , and perhaps, relates to criminal liability, too, if this is relevant.

      Thats fine but the term IR isn’t suggesting occasional failures of protocol or professionalism but a state of being. Schools are institutionally racist. It’s suggesting an ongoing collective failure of the institution despite those within that institution having little control over it.

    106. Halima — on 14th April, 2007 at 12:10 am  

      The term is used and branded about and taken too lightly actually. My understanding is that institutional racism is something that isn’t a state of being - but something tangible for which prosecutions can be mounted in a legal court. Sorry no - there is no legal complaince for public bodies to enact the Race Relations Amendment - it’s voluntary I think ? Not sure, getting thin on my knowledge here… If it was just a state of being, and I agree, people often talk about it in this vein, than orgs wouldn’t be able to monitor for it.

      Maybe locating responsibility at the top brushes everyone inside this organisation unfairly - but I can’t see any other way of rooting out deep seated racism which permeats in society - and it still exists, that would my original point.

      Lib Dem polls show DfES figures on schools showing 1/3 rise in racist abuse - just hard this on the radio as I type…

    107. Refresh — on 14th April, 2007 at 12:13 am  

      Why o why do you deride people for the way they speak or even write?

      Why not go by what they do? Actions speak louder than words.

      Don’t you think?

    108. The iLL Man — on 14th April, 2007 at 12:24 am  

      Refresh - Thanks. I wondered why I had a headache….

      That said, transferring ‘text-speak’ into other textual forms does set my teeth on edge. The responsibility for this, as someone pointed out earlier lies as much at the feet of education as it does the individual.

      I used to get annoyed at it on forums etc, but I realise it’s slightly churlish to denigrate someone for their spelling if what they have to say is valid.

      This does not apply to people who use caps or don’t use commas or full stops. That shit just hurts my brain….

    109. The iLL Man — on 14th April, 2007 at 12:25 am  

      Can I be a liberalfascist too? Please!!!!

    110. Kulvinder — on 14th April, 2007 at 12:31 am  

      Why o why do you deride people for the way they speak or even write?

      Because those that choose not to speak their first language proficiently won’t have anything interesting to say to me.

      Why not go by what they do? Actions speak louder than words.

      I’ve never seen an interpretative dance on anarcho-syndicalism; i don’t reject the possibility of actions being able to represent ideas over and above words i just accept the limitations i see before me.

    111. Ms_Xtreme — on 14th April, 2007 at 12:33 am  

      Oh man, this is what you call a competitive pissing contest.

    112. Refresh — on 14th April, 2007 at 12:33 am  

      The iLL Man - I have a confession to make, I really have problems with your name. It doesn’t put my teeth on edge, but it leaves me (subconsciously) thinking the branding could be better handled.

      The mix of caps, and worse lowercase as the first letter….

      Here is a suggestion why not try illman, Illman or The Illman. A bit like The Hillman (don’t bother with Imp).

    113. Kulvinder — on 14th April, 2007 at 12:35 am  

      Oh man, this is what you call a competitive pissing contest.

      Americans just don’t understand :(

    114. Ms_Xtreme — on 14th April, 2007 at 12:41 am  

      I’m ex-American.

      Who else is? :D

    115. Refresh — on 14th April, 2007 at 12:44 am  

      Kulvinder, I am always impressed with people who can type (and presumably say) anarcho-syndicalism.

      Perhaps one day I’ll bother to understand what it means.

      But your “won’t have anything interesting to say to me” comment is probably unnecessary, because I suspect people will have already decided for themselves and avoid you accordingly.

      Having said that I still think you’re a nice fellow and like most of us, come on here to rehearse what we would like to say to that person we bump into in the queue at the bus stop, or Subway waiting for our sarnie. Except of course we don’t in case they think we’re nuts.

    116. Kulvinder — on 14th April, 2007 at 12:48 am  

      Erm, okay.

    117. Clairwil — on 14th April, 2007 at 12:52 am  

      Ms_Extreme
      I’ve never been an American. I wouldn’t mind visiting but I’m boycotting it because they have rude people on the immigration desk. I have standards.

      Refresh
      I’ve only ever been in Subway once. The bread scares me. Why doesn’t it fill one up?

    118. Refresh — on 14th April, 2007 at 12:52 am  

      “Erm, okay.”

      Is that all you’ve got to say for yourself?

    119. Refresh — on 14th April, 2007 at 12:55 am  

      I’ve never been to Subway - just thought that was where the hip city-slickers went.

      And I was looking for a heated debate - but I’m not going to get one it seems.

    120. Kulvinder — on 14th April, 2007 at 1:06 am  

      Is that all you’ve got to say for yourself?

      I wasn’t sure what your point was.

    121. Refresh — on 14th April, 2007 at 1:14 am  

      I was looking for a Friday night brawl and I couldn’t even insult you properly. Next Friday perhaps…

    122. The iLL Man — on 14th April, 2007 at 1:33 am  

      Ah yes, The iLL Man caught out once again…. You want to know why I use irregular caps? If I print the word ‘ill’ as a proper noun, with capital ‘I’ in the comment box, it looks fine. The moment it publishes, the font changes and ‘Ill’ looks like the number three in Roman numerals, as you will see. This is common to most blogs and forums. I also hate it. I now realise I should be a man and use full caps.

      THE ILL MAN.

      I hope that wasn’t too loud….

    123. The iLL Man — on 14th April, 2007 at 1:37 am  

      Clairwil - Nothing in Subway fills you up. I’d rather pay a few quid more and get an O’Briens Toastie. The only way to get a satisfying meal in Subway is to order the biggest sarnie with everything on it.

      They also make you ask for things in feet and inches, which is deeply embarrassing. The bastards!

    124. Katy Newton — on 14th April, 2007 at 4:09 am  

      I’m English. When the ‘whitelash’ comes i’ll remember to punch myself in the face.

      Nice one, Kulvmeister.

    125. Katy Newton — on 14th April, 2007 at 4:10 am  

      (That was complimentary, Kulvinder. Excellent point.)

      (Sometimes I worry that the tone of my comments might be misinterpreted, you see.)

    126. Chairwoman — on 14th April, 2007 at 9:04 am  

      Woke up with ‘Tomorrow Belongs to Me’ and ‘The Internationale’ being sung in close harmony in my head.

      The LiberalFascist

    127. ZinZin — on 14th April, 2007 at 10:40 am  

      I bet you have a Peter Sellers arm ala Dr Strangelove.

    128. tfi — on 14th April, 2007 at 11:21 am  

      but but but … I’ve not said anything yet? someone else taking my strangelove role?

      TFI

    129. tfi — on 14th April, 2007 at 11:42 am  

      This is an excellent article. It exposes the hypocrisy we use when talking about white trash. However that is what we are talking about, white trash. I would rather we had the same confidence to talk about black / brown / yellow trash rather than learn to hold our tongue for the whites.

      Anyone that thinks that all asians are hard working and that there is no trash section to the group - you are an idiot.

      A great way to inspire people ia to show them what there shouldn’t be as much as what they could be.

      The problem here is political correctness, yet again. Damn those that ought be damned, ignore the liberal mindset that says: “just because he performed a crime you cannot call him a criminal”

      If you are white trash, you are white trash. Only you can drag yourself from that description, lets not pretend it is the label that is the problem.

      TFI

    130. soru — on 14th April, 2007 at 12:39 pm  

      Hasn’t social mobility greatly diminished since selective education / grammar schools were abolished?

      I’d say it is more to do with the abolition of the secondary moderns.

      They were truly crap schools, that, with a few exceptions, genuinely failed to educate anyone who went to them.

      Unlike the worst schools today, some children of middle class people went to them. Such children ended up as not middle class: they lacked the education and confidence to fill middle class economic roles.

      That was social mobility, which as it is usually defined requires someone to move down in order for someone else to move up. If everyone in the country, overnight, became a member of the Royal family, with all associated income and prestige, that would represent zero social mobility, as the relative ordering would remain unchanged: if you own a palace and a small semi, you are still above somone who owns a palace and a terraced house.

      Of course, the middle classes, understandably, didn’t like their offspring being educationally damaged by those crap schools, and so put a stop to the system as soon as the working class became poltically powerless.

      So these days the only forces of social mobility are gross mental retardation, or a level of drug addiction that prevents functioning in society. Absent either of those, any child of middle class parents will be middle class, and so social mobility will be almost non-existant.

    131. ZinZin — on 14th April, 2007 at 1:38 pm  

      Damn those that ought be damned, ignore the liberal mindset that says: “just because he performed a crime you cannot call him a criminal”

      Agreed
      But its the mindset that because they are poor that they commit crime that irritates. Its the poor who suffer most from crime.

    132. Chairwoman — on 14th April, 2007 at 1:41 pm  

      ZinZin - Sorry I took so long to reply, but dificult to type with right arm strapped to body :-)

    133. ZinZin — on 14th April, 2007 at 1:50 pm  

      LOL

    134. A Councillor writes — on 14th April, 2007 at 3:30 pm  

      Obviously, as we have generally closed the mines, we have a mineshaft gap.

    135. William — on 14th April, 2007 at 5:40 pm  

      tfi

      But why use such derogatory terms as white trash or Asian or black trash (trash meaning rubbish) when it is easy to use others. Also do we distinguish between social position and bad behaviour in all this. It is easily more acceptable to name call criminal behaviour rather than just being poor and poorly educated but to people differentiate when they use those terms.

    136. Grim Reaper — on 14th April, 2007 at 7:20 pm  

      The WWC speaks.

      Thank you so much for writing this article. I feel so good to know that I am now my skin colour, my income bracket and nothing else. I have also discovered that I am now a victim (according to the CRE), and therefore entitled to condescension and special treatment. Maybe even banning words like ‘chav’ from the press. Excellent.

      The first and last last person to call me English was an Italian barber more than a year ago. He was telling me about some Asian youths who had smashed up a blacks house for some reason. It wasn’t reported in the news (of course not).

      Lowest common denominator and victimology. Because only the weak are strong, only the victim is righteous, and the strong are always usurpers, theives and tyrants: from whom reparations are required.

      Quality became Equality. Everyone is equal. Everyone is homogenous slop demarcated on the basis of colour: slop to be poured into the one size fits all mold of comprehensive education to carry out meaningless tasks set by rude and hostile teachers. Products of society.

      “the white working classes are fat, lazy, thick morons”

      This isn’t based on nothing you know. The welfare state encourages sloth and ignorance. But what I find more interesting, even more poisonous then welfare alone is the demoralisation and ennui that characterises Britain in general today. Though especially among the lower orders.

      Why are Poles doing all the plumbing when I’m unemployed? I know there is good money to be made if I knuckle down to training for a few years. That’s a financial incentive yes? So why am I and so many like me still on benefits?

      Quite simply the novelty in life is long gone. We don’t want to live anymore. “Am I bothered”. We stopped caring about the spurious opinions and judgements of other people. We broke from them, then we broke from ourselves, ripped apart. For the Poles the novelty still hasn’t gone from this. iPods are amazing, money to send home to grateful relatives, money to buy your first house back in Poland with, lots of friends in the same boat as you. It’s a good time to be Polish, hard work not withstanding, it must be a very exciting and happy time for Poles.

      -

      A new job, a new city, memories fading. Repeat every year. No thanks; I will fast-forward to the end of the film and hang myself.

      The continuing self degradation of European/American culture turned the said societies into industrial nightmares of ugly cities, boring jobs serving mass tastes, void culture and directionless, factory farmed anti-creative consumers who pour into any new region with no regard for natural beauty, rip down the trees and leave concrete wasteland and endless stores catering to the lowest tastes imaginable.

      And they want to impose this on Iraq? I wonder why army recruitment levels are so low.

      “Am I bothered”. In other words I want you to stop talking to me, stop trying to persuade me into continuing this; I am not bothered by you, infact I want myself back.

      Today money is the only reward, but when all it buys you is an existence that is in no way qualitatively better than being on the dole, why bother? The Arctic Monkey retards are proud of this ennui, just look at the cover of the debut album. “Lets all just get pissed up” etc.

      No amount of state handouts or victimology can change this.

      But don’t judge us to harshly, we’re the last men at the end of history and when the novelty is gone you will all be like us soon enough. We act in a bizarre and aggressive manner simply to prove we are alive.

    137. Refresh — on 14th April, 2007 at 9:52 pm  

      TFI - why do you propose to put people into categories such as white trash? or any other type of trash?

      Or rather what is your justficaction?

      And then why are you not white trash? What is your definition.

      I find the term offensive - why do you not?

    138. El Cid — on 14th April, 2007 at 10:47 pm  

      Grim Reaper,
      Nice one (you miserable git! :) )

    139. Anas — on 15th April, 2007 at 12:51 am  

      Most of the east european immigrants are white and working class aren’t they? Maybe WWC is not such a good name for the people this thread seems to be about.

    140. limpia — on 15th April, 2007 at 3:52 am  

      Hello!from another american. I’ve almost forgotten the very good article which starts all this discussion. As i read thru here i was flabberghasted by the hatred of one individual, yet i see a ‘bonding’ and coming together perhaps as a result of that person’s statements.
      How all this tumult seems to compare to america? As one originally of the working class, and still immersed in a working environment that includes many classes and ethnic groups, i think u guys have a problem!let’s all judge by actions, not word or form, and snicker with supiority only occasionally.

    141. douglas clark — on 15th April, 2007 at 9:22 am  

      Anas,

      You are quite right. This article seems to me at least to be about the white, non working class. Whilst WWC seems to be well known, WNWC has still to make it as an acronym. The WWC deserves respect, the WNWC doesn’t.

    142. Ramiie — on 15th April, 2007 at 10:29 am  

      It will be all so much easier if all whites acknowledge publicly that the stain of european modernity (the technological,philosophical,social and material where-are-today) is the results of centuries of murder, pillage, racism, genocide, intellectual theft…

      They know it in their heart of hearts..this white person’s burden they carry..yet cannot bring themselves to acknowledge the truth.

      Go ahead, its a lovely Sunday morning, you know you really want to. Evasion is just a symptom of your psychological trauma.

    143. Anas — on 15th April, 2007 at 11:59 am  

      re: my post 139, maybe a better title would be AWC, aboriginal working class.

    144. El Cid — on 15th April, 2007 at 12:12 pm  

      intellectual theft?
      porsche driving asians?
      joker
      It’s not in my dna to make the naff racial generalisations you make, ramalamadingdong. So let’s get personal.
      Go on, it’s a lovely Sunday morning, you have underperformed as an individual coz you is shit, ennit. Don’t hide behind simplistic racial identities (although, unless you’re an african african, you’re also part-white). Evasion is just a symptom of your psychological trauma.

    145. ZinZin — on 15th April, 2007 at 12:22 pm  

      Evasion is just a symptom of your psychological trauma.

      Go and say what you said on this thread to those white working class woman that i work with. Like many racists Ramiie you are an idiot. Shithouse

    146. Ramiie — on 15th April, 2007 at 12:23 pm  

      @ hell’s seed

      “underperformed”? My asian woman didn’t say that to me this morning, actually. She said I hit it right on the button, as usual. “simplistic racial identities” wtfit??? “african african” LMBAO

    147. ZinZin — on 15th April, 2007 at 12:24 pm  

      Anas
      If you have read Marx he makes a distinction between the proletariat and lumpenproletariat. There is a civil war in the WWC.

    148. Ramiie — on 15th April, 2007 at 12:26 pm  

      @
      zinbin

      you’re mixed-race, right?

      Indeed, evasion is just a symptom..you get the picture.

    149. El Cid — on 15th April, 2007 at 12:29 pm  

      What you saying Ramy - you mean you is blessed with a big cock? That wouldn’t be because you is african, or mainly african, would it? I reckon you and Bernard Manning would get on like a house on fire.

    150. ZinZin — on 15th April, 2007 at 12:33 pm  

      Ramiie
      Stop guessing my race and informing us that you have an Asian girlfriend to deflect any claims that you are a racist is weak. Calling the WWC rancid is racist and how do you know that the asians who post here drive porsches are you the car park attendant at PP towers?

      Ramiie you just don’t fit in here, so fuck off and take your inferiority/persecution complex with you.

    151. William — on 15th April, 2007 at 2:31 pm  

      Ramiie

      “results of centuries of murder, pillage, racism, genocide,”

      If we look at the history of different races over the last thousand years this could apply to any of them. Sometimes someone might say this to broaden an issue rather than avoid one and there is a difference.

    152. Clairwil — on 15th April, 2007 at 2:48 pm  

      The Grim Reaper

      ‘Thank you so much for writing this article. I feel so good to know that I am now my skin colour, my income bracket and nothing else. I have also discovered that I am now a victim (according to the CRE), and therefore entitled to condescension and special treatment. Maybe even banning words like ‘chav’ from the press. Excellent.’

      The whole point I was getting at was NOT reducing people solely to their skin colour and income bracket to make negative assumptions. At no point have I ever advocated a ban on the use of any language.

      Rammie,
      Yes I am the devil. All white people are Satanic creations. The black and arab slave traders were duped by the white man and presumably are still being duped as the slave trade carries on today.

    153. Katy Newton — on 15th April, 2007 at 2:55 pm  

      murder, pillage, racism, genocide, intellectual theft…

      Yep, all things that only white people have done. No non-white nation has ever indulged in murder, pillage, racism, genocide or intellectual theft.

    154. Clairwil — on 15th April, 2007 at 3:01 pm  

      ‘Yep, all things that only white people have done. No non-white nation has ever indulged in murder, pillage, racism, genocide or intellectual theft.’

      Ah yes but if they did, it would be the white mans fault.

    155. Chris Stiles — on 15th April, 2007 at 3:10 pm  

      Er .. has Amir suddenly started to post as a black man? The modus-operandi is strangely familiar.

      Or we are the victims of huge practical joke.

    156. Refresh — on 15th April, 2007 at 3:34 pm  

      “Whilst WWC seems to be well known, WNWC has still to make it as an acronym. The WWC deserves respect, the WNWC doesn’t.”

      The term generally understood to be is ‘underclass’ and to quote a well known ex-Chancellor they are a price worth paying.

      There are supposed to be over 2 million people on incapacity benefit. This was the policy of the day - move the unemployed from the unemployment list onto the incapacity benefit list, thus hiding the miserable failures of the government of the day.

      Shutting down of industry: textiles, mining, manufacturing in general resulted in large numbers of unemployed. And to add insult to injury - they were told to get on their bikes.

    157. Refresh — on 15th April, 2007 at 3:38 pm  

      Clairwil, why ruin a good thread. Lets stay on topic.

      The man, if he is genuine, has a problem with past policies.

      If he is being offensive deal with that.

      Victims* of imperial policy is the area he wishes to discuss - but can’t control it long enough to get it.

      *They are and were both here and abroad. Both white and black.

    158. Joe90 — on 15th April, 2007 at 4:32 pm  

      Clairwil

      As the Roman Republic expanded it bought back more and more slaves. As slaves were bought with only one payment, businesses and prosperous Romans started to use them instead of their own working class. As more of that class became unemployed, the Senate introduced the “dole” handing out food and money to this new underclass who became restless and troublesome. Later on Emperors tried to keep this class quiet with lavish games and more money but crime and unrest increased. Rome was turned into a city of spongers and nearly bankrupted.

      Need I go on?

      Joe90

    159. Ramiie — on 15th April, 2007 at 4:47 pm  

      Hell’s Seed wrote:

      “Ramiie you just don’t fit in here…”

      LOL

      Clearly, there is a lot of jumping up and down in the Big House, it would seem. It’s as if a big, dutty field negro has managed somehow to enter the drawing room, unannounced!

      That has always been the defining thing about the liberalfascist…their inability to take a long, hard look into the mirror that questioning Blacks like me like to hold up to their faces.

      Oh its all right to pride oneself about having a liberal conscioence and having some vague counter-cultural credential, but not daring to acknowledge that in the context of race the tradition of European liberalism has functioned well as the face saving conscience of a functional psychopath.

      Liberals play with politics - conservatives havent got time for games, they are always fighting the real war.

      When years back at the start of Bush’s criminal adventure, as iraqi babies were being roasted in their beds by his and Blair’s bombs, how many rainbow nation liberals were willing to finance the insurgency?

      As black babies again are being torn limb from limb by the UN backed arab criminals in Sudan, how many liberals are funneling cash or information to prop up the resistance?

      The truth is that I don’t like the smug, complacent attitudes of some posters on this site and I dont believe that politics should be served up as mental masturbation. So pardon me for bringing a whiff of the, er, real battlefield into your cosy drawing room back slap.

    160. Refresh — on 15th April, 2007 at 5:05 pm  

      It occurs to me that Grim Reaper and Rammii are probably saying the same thing from different perspectives (with different emphases of course).

      I’ve just had to re-read both again. Might have to read it a third time.

      Does anyone know where the term ‘whataboutery’ was invented? Saw it on a HP thread. Absolutely perfect description of the latter part of this thread.

    161. Ramiie — on 15th April, 2007 at 5:08 pm  

      @freshwee

      evasion is just a symptom….?

    162. El Cid — on 15th April, 2007 at 5:11 pm  

      Yeah, keep it real — lol
      You are the one who needs to look in the mirror gin rummy. Kill all the tutsis, kill them allllllll!!!

    163. El Cid — on 15th April, 2007 at 5:13 pm  

      Refresh, has Kizzie lent you his crack pipe again?

    164. Ramiie — on 15th April, 2007 at 5:15 pm  

      actually, I am a Tutsi..so whats your point..erm..surely, you can’t really be assuming that all Blacks are Hutus?

      Where does that leave us, and indeed, your reputation on these boards?

      I rest my case about the liberalfascist.

    165. Joe90 — on 15th April, 2007 at 5:15 pm  

      Adversus solem ne loquitor

      Joe90

    166. Chairwoman — on 15th April, 2007 at 5:19 pm  

      Ramiie - the only smug self-satisfied person here today is you.

      The LiberalFascist

    167. El Cid — on 15th April, 2007 at 5:23 pm  

      Gosh, so many angles, so little time:
      1) So what is wrong with hutus exactly? Oh, you mean from a classist sense. I see, for dey is the working class, and we don’t like dem. Of course.
      2) Tutsis were the lackeys put in charge by the Belgians (a meany might draw an analogy with the peace contract agreed between the Maroons in Jamaica and the Red Coats)
      3) But 1) and 2) aside, the real point of #162 was that hate takes many forms and that viewing the world in terms of a few big colour defined tribes is simplistic, naive, and dangerous.
      So how you feeling now, Dummiie?

    168. El Cid — on 15th April, 2007 at 5:24 pm  

      Joe 90, sorry mate, I went to an inner city comprehensive and didn’t do latin — what’s that mean?

    169. Joe90 — on 15th April, 2007 at 5:37 pm  

      Sorry El Cid(“The Lord”)

      “Do not argue against the obvious”

      Joe90

      I went to a Franciscan Monastary school

    170. Ramiie — on 15th April, 2007 at 5:43 pm  

      Heil Seed,

      you attempts to make me feel inferior in language will fail..to me, misuse/abuse of the English language is a good thing..like slashing the throat of a hated sacred cow, I suppose. (BTW ironic that you should confuse going to an inner city comp with your ignorance of Latin.) In fact I enjoy watching you use the faux caribbean accent as a kind of cyber cudgel..in much the same way I enjoy observing the helpless rage of a racist.

      How does that make you feel…

    171. Joe90 — on 15th April, 2007 at 5:59 pm  

      It is sad to see so much abuse when we all want peace and justice for all people, Joseph Conrad was right even though this is a little bit of a misquotation by me.

      Joe90

      “The belief in a supernatural source of evil is not necessary; human beings of all colours,creeds and nationalities are quite capable of every wickedness.”

      Joseph Conrad

    172. ZinZin — on 15th April, 2007 at 6:53 pm  

      Where does that leave us, and indeed, your reputation on these boards?

      Ramiie
      Pot, Kettle and erm Black.

    173. Ramiie — on 15th April, 2007 at 7:04 pm  

      I give up..trying to happy slap the liberal is like raging at a cushion.

    174. ZinZin — on 15th April, 2007 at 7:11 pm  

      I give up..trying to happy slap the liberal is like raging at a cushion.

      .in much the same way I enjoy observing the helpless rage of a racist.

    175. El Cid — on 15th April, 2007 at 7:12 pm  

      Actually, I really do mix my London english with faux caribbeanisms — sometimes in jest, sometimes not (although no one above 30 really swaps ‘is’ for ‘are’, whatever their colour). Nothing ironic about that star. My school was 70 percent Afro-Caribbean (and no, they didn’t teach latin, thankfully). You kinda pick it up, just like a black kid may pick up regional english colloquialisms. I guess that might make me a wigga.
      As for racist, perhaps you might like to ask the 3 black godfathers of my horrible, nasty whitey white kids what they think? Or the sisters I have checked. Or check out my vinyls and my literary/academic interests.
      Ooooooh, I could tell you more, but I don’t really think I like you. So for now i’ll wait for the inevitable “some of my friends are black” riposte.
      The only racist here is YOU. Seriously, you really have big issues of hate. Go talk to the priest, or the imman, or the representative of whatever rocks your soul. Prick

    176. El Cid — on 15th April, 2007 at 7:24 pm  

      Forget the imman and priest. You need to see the doctor.

    177. Refresh — on 15th April, 2007 at 7:26 pm  

      El Cid

      I think I would have to gather an army before Kismet would let go of his pipe, or send him to Guantanamo for rehab.

      Ramiie, you remind me of someone else who treads these boards. I think he is much more popular than you are turning out to be.

      Why don’t you cut out the abuse and get to the point you are making? Don’t forget you are now amongst rational and sane people.

    178. Sunny — on 16th April, 2007 at 1:58 pm  

      Right, great thread and discussion but no more ad hominem insults at each other please, they’ll be deleted like the last few posts.

    179. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 16th April, 2007 at 2:55 pm  

      Unless they are really really witty ;-)

      TFI

    180. Kismet Hardy — on 16th April, 2007 at 3:04 pm  

      heard the one about the rapper Eminem taking out a full page advert showing him sporting a handlebar moustache and rogering a leatherclad biker?

      He calls it ad homonem

      “Unless they are really really witty”

      Oh

    181. O Danny Boy — on 19th April, 2007 at 12:58 pm  

      Clairwil,

      I had an apprentice once who was ostracised by the other apprentices for repeating some BNP leaflet he’d picked up at a football match. He was a nice lad but he was well on his way to the BNP simply as he had no rebuttal. He was easily talked out of it. You on the other hand have shown disdain for the BNP and put forward a far more mature argument than my apprentice, so I hope you at least take the time to respond to me the way I have to you.

      >From Little Britain, to newspaper opinion columns. The message is clear:
      So don’t read that crap, read here or other sensible sources of info. I know the mainstream is polluted, so ignore it.

      >the white working classes are fat, lazy, thick morons and as such they can be spoken of in ways that would be unthinkable if applied to blacks or Asians.

      True, but the blacks and Asians are the minority and they get abuse you don’t see - you only see the abuse that is directed towards you. That is the upper classes shitting on you. It doesn’t mean you should shit on someone else.

      >The white working classes are given no credit for doing work that is dirty, tiring , often demeaning and almost always poorly paid, yet are blamed for all society’s ills.

      The first wave of mass immigration in the 50′s was at a time of full employment to fill crappy jobs people here wouldn’t do. Even now i my my town which is almost totally white, the few balck people I see are sweeping floors in the shopping mall.

      >To add insult to injury we are now told that immigrants do all that work better, unlike the ‘bumptious’ natives who fail to show gratitude for their minimum wage pittance.

      No, most immigrants who are praised for their hard work are white, skinny, well-educated Eastern Europeans, and all immigrants work hard here as they earn much more than they would at home doing more professional jobs. Which is the same as a ‘brain-drain’ - those countries have to import even cheaper workers from other countries. If you got a job in the US paying 4 or a 100 times your wage you’d work hard and bite your lip too. I’ve worked abroad and been treated as a second class citizen, but I didn’t complain as the pay was better than in the UK at the time

      Yeah, here the minimum wage is shit, abroad it is better than doctors can earn in some countries. They live in shit conditions here and can’t afford anything, live in crowed accomodation and send their cash home doing work they are over-qualified for. This trend won’t stop until we unionise with the incomers and jointly refuse to work for crap wages, or until the global wage equalises - and until then expect more grief. You didn’t think Globalisation was aimed at enriching you did you ? It is for making the rich even richer.

      >The Dept for Work and Pensions website for ‘benefit thieves‘ for example provides information in a number of languages to help ensure no-one is missing out on their entitlement. Yet the only minority language provision on the section dealing with benefit fraud is Welsh. I am not suggesting for a moment that this is anything more than an oversight but why is it only important to be inclusive when handing out benefits?

      Good point.

      >Is benefit fraud exclusively committed by fluent English and Welsh speakers?

      Most of the Hebrides could use a section in their language, but they are so tight-knit a community that they don’t normally grass each other up. So why bother ? Same goes with all self-reliant communities. On the ‘wee-free’ protestant isles muslims fit in especially well - no alcohol, no work on the Sabbath, no sex before marriage - and they are whiter than white given the lack of sun up there.

      >It’s fine with me that government departments are making efforts to make minorities feel included, it would be lovely if they would consider the feelings of the white majority while they did so.

      You aren’t dealing with government departments - you are dealing with the ruling elites, the super-rich, the bosses bosses, Blairs bosses. Blair is so much i debt on his 5 properties - you do’t think his current salary could pay for that lifestyle did you ? Our political elite are just employees of the super-rich.

      >The colour bias to be found in the attitudes of the liberal snob is breathtaking. Writer Michael Collins recalls attending a media party and hearing one white middle class woman complain that the working class area she’d moved to was ‘very white’.

      I’m more working class / peasant class and whiter than you, than anyone is. I love visiting my sister in London. I get to taste all these exotic foods I have never heard of straight from the market. I get to talk to people from places I’ve never be able to afford to travel to about what their country is like. As a single male I loved living in Amsterdam - they have had immigration, maybe too much for such a small, overcrowed country, but you walk down the street and t’s like a ‘Miss World’ cometition passing by. You get the huge blonde Dutch girls, the petite Vietnamese and Indonesians , the gorgeous Caribbeans and the dusky North Africans. Then I came back to Scotland and all you see is 11 year olds dressed up as 16 year olds, 16 year olds pushing prams , and women my age with , quite frankly, one too many sauasge rolls in them. All the same colour, all the same lack of ambition, all the same prospects. I’ve seen four pretty women in my town in the past six months who weren’t too young for me. One of them was Polish, one of them was Russian, one of them was married and the last one was related to me.

      >If you doubt the influence these attitudes have, take a look at these quotes from members of the public commenting on the topic of asylum and immigration on this BBC website.

      You are quite right, those were upper/middle-class privileged shits who were commenting. The upper classes do appreciate a subservient servant. And these foriegners are so impoverished and underpaid at home so take shit noone should have to take. It just increases the Rich-Poor divide locally and globally. So, if yo want a few solutions:
      1) Increase living prospects in their own countries so fewer want to come here - which means consuming less here.
      2) Support those who do come here to politicise and claim the rights they are due so that you aren’t undercut
      3) Uncontrolled and sudden mass immigration just causes ethnic and class tension - slow it down to sustainable levels
      4) Don’t pick nd choose according to skills, oly circumstances, don’t creat brain-drains abroad or that just causes more migratio
      5) Don’t create refugees by allowing our rich to launch resource wars twhich displace people.

      That is no excuse to attack refugees and asylum seekers though - half the politicians who slag off refugees came from refugee families - if we re going to repatriate anyone lets start with the ones that have been here the longest like Michael Howard.
      The UN is saying the UK should take far more of the Iraqi exiles sitting in camps in Jordan and Syria - and I think we should as that was a war solely for the benefit of our upper classes. I think anyone who owns oil-shares or who voted Labour should be made to take at least one displaced Iraqi family into their home until it is safe for them to return. that’d soon end the war.

      >Can you imagine the uproar if someone argued that UK born blacks were sub-literate lazy morons who should be deported to make way for hard working white immigrants? Yet the most vicious prejudice and contempt is considered acceptable if it’s directed towards the white poor. In reality immigrants and asylum seekers are just people from wide variety of cultures and social classes. They do not come from a planet where everyone conforms to the values of the middle class liberal and can no more be regarded a uniformly fine bunch of people than the native poor dismissed as scum.

      And it isn’t just ethnically caucasian Europeans who are racist - all ethnicities suffer from that stupidity- you’ll never meet anyone more anti-Pakistani than a Sikh guy I worked with.

      >Building up immigrants and asylum seekers at the expense of the white native population is more likely than anything else to provoke a racist reaction. I cannot see how simultaneously telling a whole section of society it is worthless scum and accusing them of racism is likely to improve race relations.

      You do seem to be focussig on the word ‘white’ too much. You maybe don’t realise you yourself are a mix of races. Did you see the programme ‘How English are You?’ It took a bunch of white English nationalists and traced their DNA and it found most of them were heavily mixed race.Even Thatcher was 25% Mongul if I remember correctly. Britain, like the rest of the world, has always been a melting pot, a mongerel nation. Our ancestors came from all over. I think the most racially pure peoples in the world are the Australians Aboriginal , the Japanese and the Icelandic, simply due to being ‘cut-off’ from the outside world on and therefore bred from ‘family’ - thats why Bjork is a bit mad. You should think and speak in terms of ‘indigeneous’ and therefore anyone in Glasgow who speaks with a genuine Glasgow accent, regardless of colour, is indigeneous.

      >In fact if I were a BNP activist I’d be dancing for joy each time whites are trashed and I’d be over the moon as an issue white class hated is barely even on the radar. It’s about time anti-racists started speaking up, if not there are plenty thugs and racists who’ll be more than happy to do so.

      You are quite right, they are doing so, and we do have to put a stop to that by addressing their arguments.

      >One thing is for certain, if and when the backlash happens it won’t be the white middle classes or media snobs that bear the brunt of it.

      You are right, it is and always will be against the most recent emigre community against the most dispossesed locals. The Blacks against Koreans in the US, before that though it was the Irish against the Blacks, the Italians against the Irish. The most dispossesed always have to fight amongst themselves while the rich get richer. You have got to have noticed though how the majority of the super-rich are white - even if some of the poorest are too. You earn more in the States the lighter you are regardless of your race. When ‘poor white trash’ like us are hungry, darker skinned folk are starved. When we have to stack shelves, they are forced to prostitute themselves to survive

    182. Clairwil — on 21st April, 2007 at 12:49 am  

      Can I just begin by saying I was utterly appalled at some of the comments on the Indymedia thread (how did my post get there anyway?) I am not racist, I have never and would never support any racist organisation -BNP etc. I am genuinely distressed that anyone could infer that from anything I’ve written.

      For the record I work with refugee and asylum seekers on both a paid and voluntary basis, live in a pretty mixed area, have asian relatives. As such I have witnessed plenty racism -it’s disgusting and I am totally oppossed to it.

      I wasn’t suggesting that because in my view the white working classes get a bad time that anyone should then respond in a racist way. The point I was trying to make was that if you wouldn’t make some stereotyped blanket statement about BME groups then why do it to the white poor? I was advocating equality rather than attacking minorities or voting BNP. Quite apart from being unfair it creates a huge opportunity for the BNP. I do not want to see them gain a foothold in Scotland.

      By way of background I attended a community meeting some time back attended by for want of a better term natives and refugees. Virtually every speaker ran down the native community as racist, violent and ignorant despite being in a room full of people who had attended the meeting because they wished to meet and learn more about the different refugee communities.These elements exist but so do many people who’ve gone out their way to welcome asylum seekers into their communities by displaying common decency, volunteering for various projects and in some caes getting involved in campaigning.

      I see plenty of white Scots doing menial jobs as well as new immigrants. What I was attacking was the view that the white native poor just sit about claiming benefits whilst all the hard work is done by immigrants. Quite apart from anything else I get a bit tired of the notion that anyone other than private landlords is getting rich off the benefits system. It’s certainly true that East Europeans come in for a fair bit of praise for hard work but I’ve also encountered the same attitudes towards black and asian workers. Anyone doing a job to the best of their ability deserves praise for their work. Frankly I’m appalled at perfectly nice well intentioned left/liberal types setting up some sort of race/nationality division between workers doing the same job. Your comments about unionisation etc are spot on.

      I don’t have a problem with areas being racially mixed. I’ve spent most of my childhood and adult life in areas that were just that. I just think it’s a bit weird to complain that an area is ‘very white’ when you wouldn’t dream of complaining an area is ‘too black’. It strikes me as that try too hard look at how multicultural I am middle class posturing.

      Rather than criticise working class women for their unhealthy appearance and lack of ambition should we not be asking why that is the case and doing something to improve the situation- now not come the revolution? It’s either that or sit back and watch the BNP move in and blame it all on immigrants for taking jobs/housing/some made up grant that only exists in Nick Griffins head.

      As for Refugees I share your hope that one day there won’t be any because the awful conflicts and oppression they are fleeing from won’t exist but while they’re here I welcome them as I do other immigrants. What I was criticising was not refugees but the attitude held by some that they are all fantastic people. Many are, some aren’t. My whole article was against making race based judgements not suggesting that we should substitute white class hatred for racism.

      I don’t really give a toss whether I’m all white or a mix. I have no interest in ‘racial purity’. I picked the term white working class because I thought it would be understood. There have been other and better suggestions upthread. Incidentially if you are interested in the history of British immigration then I’d strongly reccomend ‘Bloody Foreigners’ By Robert Winder. It’s an excellent and very even handed read.

      I hope that clarifies things a bit for you. If not fire away.

    183. El Cid — on 21st April, 2007 at 10:58 am  

      Ramiie,
      Let’s be honest here. The biggest problem right now is WWC boys and afrocaribbean boys. Why? I dunno. Truly, although I have a few ideas. Lack of role models, rubbish dads, absent dads, a subculture that praises violence and disparages nerdiness. You know where I’m coming from. YOU KNOW!.
      And I look around where I work — a highly professional international bourgoise organisation — and what do I see? I see people from all over the world but, naturally, a disproportionate number of Brits, for it is a British company and these are its UK offices. So lets focus on the Brits. And what do I see? More than half, I would estimate, were educated privately. Of the remainder, most came from the leafier suburbs, including a few Asians. From the inner city? One black girl from Handsworth and a certain North London Spic. Is it race? Is it class? At the end of the day, I think it’s also a gender thing. People like me and you, and the people we might represent, have more in common than you think. Black men and WWC men have more in common than you think. Sure the WWC won’t be stopped by the police as much. The WWC also don’t have the historical cancer of slavery gnawing away at their souls, compelling many of them to restablish their links with their ancestors’ African homeland and to rebel against their immediate cultural surroundings. But both our people are underperforming. As David Brent might say: FACT.

    184. El Cid — on 21st April, 2007 at 11:41 am  

      Maybe I’m being unfair on the dads:
      http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,2062486,00.html

      I also remember a TV programme that focused on the mental development of kids — one of them Sir Robert Winston whassisname programmes — when a West Indian mother turned to the camera and said, I don’t do that reading at bedtime thing, that ain’t me.

    185. Refresh — on 23rd April, 2007 at 12:48 pm  

      Clairwil,

      I Heard the news about GMTV ripping off all those premium number callers to the tune of millions.

      Marry that to the observation that a significant number of lottery ticket purchases (and scratch cards)tend to be by working class and out-of-work working class. Those least able to afford tend to feed those that consider themselves the middle classes and above.

      This is the pyramid of our economy.

      I’ve come to the conclusion there are far more ‘scallies’ amongst the white collars and above.

      Those that have ripped people off and those that come up with the schemes should be up for ‘White Collar’ Asbos.

      That should wipe the smile off the faces who think they are better than those that have been put on the scrap heap.

      Asbos for white collar criminals.

      No more excuses, such as pressure from management and the chase for ratings in the case of GMTV and anyone else in that game.

      Management and shareholders should also be put in the dock, for allowing it or turning a blind eye.

    186. Clairwil — on 24th April, 2007 at 12:14 am  

      Refresh,
      That’s very true. Imagine if a similar scam had been pulled by some market traders. I think we’d be seeing a few jail sentences. Funny how there it’s always a ‘mistake’ when the criminals have a bit of cash behind them.

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