Faith Matters report into the EDL


by Rumbold
28th November, 2010 at 10:13 am    

Nigel Copsey, a professor of modern history, has produced a report investigating the English Defence League’s (EDL) structure and focus (PDF) for the group Faith Matters. It is a useful summary of the group, its motivations and future direction. It is a fairly comprehensive study of the EDL, and looks at the sub-divisions opening within the EDL itself:

As well as aggravating religious tensions, the EDL has established a Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Division to “defend” gay people from Sharia law. There are also specialist divisions for women, soldiers and disabled people. The report warns these communities to be vigilant against “selective racism” and the EDL’s attempts at manipulation.

The EDL continues to grow because it ostensibly focuses on Islamic extremism, meaning that it can claim not to be racist, just anti-Islamic. It is not clear whether it will be able to maintain that pretence in the long term.


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  1. K.T. — on 28th November, 2010 at 12:09 pm  

    Do any of the mosques cater for homosexuals? Hate to say it folks, but that would be 1-0 to the EDL, in terms of inclusion. They sound more tolerant than mosque in the world. Unless you can tell us differently. So please someone, name a mosque which preaches tolerance to homosexuals and in which they can be open about their sexuality.

  2. joe90 — on 28th November, 2010 at 12:48 pm  

    post #1

    cater for homosexuals? its place of worship they don’t ask what is your sexual preference when you enter through the doors.

    Does tesco staff ask you what is your sexual habits when you need to buy a loaf of bread?

    As for edl being tolerant you must be having a laugh, their hall of shame members are a made up of ex NF and BNP thugs if you want to call them tolerant happy days for you then!

  3. douglas clark — on 28th November, 2010 at 1:19 pm  

    Rumbold,

    The EDL continues to grow because it ostensibly focuses on Islamic extremism, meaning that it can claim not to be racist, just anti-Islamic. It is not clear whether it will be able to maintain that pretence in the long term.

    And here was me thinking that they were doing quite badly, contracting even. When was the last time they made an impact? You seem to think, I’d have thought, that they were making a daily influence on how we work. As far as I know, they don’t.

    They are just a bunch of misbegotten thugs. Cue their reply.

  4. K.T. — on 28th November, 2010 at 1:27 pm  

    joe90 you know very well that the CofE has to be seen to be openly inclusive of homosexuals.

    Whilst I agree with your personal thoughts that it shouldn’t matter, we both know it does and homosexuals themselves make a huge issue of it, as does the government.

    When a mosque issues a news story about its first gay male and female whoever, in a leading position, then you can claim that sexuality doesn’t matter.

    It certainly does in muslim communities and it needs to be challenged head on, or they can’t possibly take the moral high ground on inclusiveness. Protest all you want, but the world knows mosques are bigoted that way.

  5. Niaz — on 28th November, 2010 at 1:59 pm  

    This is just more racist Muslim bashing from the EDL . For example if you look at homophobic attacks they are rarely ever carried out by Muslims.

  6. Rita Banerji — on 28th November, 2010 at 2:38 pm  

    Almost all old religious books condone slavery — the Quran, the Bible, the Vedas! And there are many forms of slavery that still exist — like with sex-trafficking, illegal sweat-shops etc. But they are underground because socially it is just not acceptable to openly profess to practice slavery any more. Well — so there’s hope! There is only one way that social attitudes towards homosexuality can go!

  7. joe90 — on 28th November, 2010 at 3:11 pm  

    post #4

    how would you know if people in a mosque are gay or straight nobody asks and nobody cares.

    Why should they make an announcement that someone is gay??? should they make public announcements someone is straight also.

    Or is it more practical that your sexual behaviour is a personal matter and kept that way.

  8. damon — on 28th November, 2010 at 4:11 pm  

    I read the report. I’m not sure if the rich backer Alan Lake is that important. They can’t have much in overheads as people pay their own way to their demos.

    I would imagine that they will eventually run out of steam if they are ignored. But on the other hand it probably suits some people to oppose them, which hightens the tension and people get violent and arrested. That puts some people off as well as attracting the more vioent hooligan types.
    The last thing I guess UAF would want is peaceful well stewarded EDL marches with a wider cross-section of people on them.

    Reading Rod Liddle’s Millwall blog, even though Millwall were playing in Preston yesterday, a few said they’d avioid the EDL march as it wasn’t worth the hassle….and anyway, the EDL up there were all ”northern ****’s” (they said).

    Many of them were very much against the EDL and some were for it. I won’t do a link to it as there’s lots of offensive language on it as that’s how they talk, but this was just one contribution.

    I’m not a supporter of the EDL in any shape or form, but they should be allowed to be heard and listened to. If anyone was in any doubt about the potential dangers of some of those in the Muslim faith they should watch Panorama tonight at 8.30pm on BBC1. I saw a clip earlier on the news and it was unbelievable.

    Which funnily enough is along the lines of what Hope not Hate said about that same programme.
    http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/news/article/1766/Saudi-Arabian-schoolbooks-reveal-rampant-anti-Semitism-gripping-the-Muslim-world

    And that Panorama programme was called Islmophobic by some. These guys soon to be sitting discussing Islamophobia with MPs said it was.
    http://www.iengage.org.uk/component/content/article/1-news/1108-panoramas-john-ware-embarks-on-another-witch-hunt

    The EDL are obviously thugs, but this does all get a bit like the opening of the TV show ”Soap”.
    Confused? HP and Gilligan get called Islamophobes for their output. HnH wants the EDL banned. Or at least their marches.

    Then Dave Hill brings up this story of extremist DVDs being found at the Tower Hamlets town hall during Islam Awareness Week.

    My information is that the offending DVDs were put on display by members of the Council’s Muslim Staff Association on its behalf. The MSA is an organisation representing the Council’s Muslim employees and therefore not the same thing as the Council itself.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/davehillblog/2010/nov/23/lutfur-rahman-tower-hamlets-extremist-preacher-dvd

    Which is exactly the kind of thing that is winding up those EDL types in the first place.
    Should there even be Muslim Staff Association at a council? It’s not quite like the Indian Workers Association I’m guessing. The IWA was a progressive organisation I’ve read. I wonder if the people who placed the DVDs in the town hall should be sacked?

  9. K.T. — on 28th November, 2010 at 4:28 pm  

    It’s not the EDL strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up commuters. I don’t know anyone in the EDL, but I’d feel safer travelling on a plane or train with one of their members, than a religious nutcase who thinks he’s going to spend eternity as a porn star.

  10. Konnu — on 28th November, 2010 at 4:36 pm  

    K.T. @9

    Your association of all Muslims with 7/7 as an excuse for the EDL is disgusting. Sadly, the EDL exists because there are people like you who share the same sentiments.

  11. K.T. — on 28th November, 2010 at 4:49 pm  

    No, my view is skewed by the reactions to people speaking out against all religious bigotry. As you do, it is par for the course for the “followers” to turn the tables on those who comdemn the murderers. I understand other muslims are considered targets for the fanatics as well, but you just don’t like non muslims condemning your fanatics.

  12. Otto — on 28th November, 2010 at 5:56 pm  

    It is not clear whether it will be able to maintain that pretence in the long term.

    Really? Look, the EDL was founded to do the job leftists and gov’t won’t do; defend society against the predations of Far Right clerical fascists.

    Those Far Right clerical fascists cannot help but fuel the growth of the EDL owing to their propensity towards violence, disruptions, terror attacks ( Christmas tree bombrer!)and tribal chauvinism.

    For example if you look at homophobic attacks they are rarely ever carried out by Muslims

    But when you look at something, you have to open your eyes.http://ezralevant.com/2010/10/gaybashing-in-amsterdam.html

  13. Otto — on 28th November, 2010 at 6:02 pm  

    Your association of all Muslims with 7/7 as an excuse for the EDL is disgusting.

    Your victim pantomime is a hoot.

    Why aren’t you indignant about the fact that almost all Muslim terrorists openly associate Islam with their terror atrocities and willingly and enthusiastically invoke it nearly every time before committing an one?

    We aren’t culpabilisng Islam, they are, you hypocrite.

  14. Kismet Hardy — on 28th November, 2010 at 6:11 pm  

    Lots of transvestites in saudi arabia, and famously, Pakistan, don’t get ritually buggered, so to speak, by its residents

    Oh, and this might be of interest/contention:

    http://stfrancismagazine.blogspot.com/2009/01/was-prophet-of-islam-transvestite.html

  15. pete — on 28th November, 2010 at 7:30 pm  

    Otto

    But when you look at something, you have to open your eyes.http://ezralevant.com/2010/10/gaybashing-in-amsterdam.html

    Wow ..your reference is a far right anti-Muslim extremist who admires Geert Wilders and Mark Steyn.

    Was nothing from Stormfront or the BNP website available?

  16. Konnu — on 28th November, 2010 at 7:44 pm  

    Otto @13

    Why aren’t you indignant about the fact that almost all Muslim terrorists openly associate Islam with their terror atrocities and willingly and enthusiastically invoke it nearly every time before committing an one?

    What the hell makes you think that I (and indeed most Muslims) am not indignant about that? Is it because we don’t preface every bloody discussion with an apology and dissociation? Is it because as a Muslim I have the temerity to believe for one moment that the EDL could be criticised, when I should really be riddled with guilt by association for 7/7?

    You righteous, pompous apologist for racists.

  17. Otto — on 28th November, 2010 at 9:52 pm  

    You righteous, pompous apologist for racists

    Imagine the weight such an acusation has coming from someone whose ‘faith’ is headquartered in a filthy, totalitarian, religious-apartheid state run by Far Right clerical fascists.

    Saudi Arabia’s constitution IS the Koran, by the way, the the very same Koran that refers to Jews as pigs and monkeys, and the very same one you and every other ‘moderate’ reads.

    Islam is primitive, pagan and disgusting.

    Now go blow up a Christmas tree, will ya.

  18. joe90 — on 28th November, 2010 at 10:13 pm  

    post #13

    now that you have spewed your edl hate propoganda and used the same old islamaphobic lines that you use in every one of your predictable posts. Do us all a favour and crawl? back under your rock will ya!

  19. Konnu — on 28th November, 2010 at 10:16 pm  

    Otto @16

    Your lie about the Qur’an is there for all to see. We see you for what you really are: an anti-Muslim bigot. Pitiful.

  20. Konnu — on 28th November, 2010 at 10:19 pm  

    Hmm, looks like Otto’s sick post @16 has gone, as has his ‘lie for all to see’!

    Much prefer the post in its place – well said, joe90.

  21. douglas clark — on 28th November, 2010 at 10:28 pm  

    Otto @ 13,

    On a scale of one to ten, just how enraged are you? Frankly, you have the persuasive powers of a mad bastard at a bus stop. Joe90 called you right.

  22. damon — on 28th November, 2010 at 10:53 pm  

    A thousand idiots marched in a northern provincial town yesterday.
    There’s something similar due in a few weeks time somewhere else.
    Is it really that much to get excited about?
    I don’t think so.

  23. Fun Fun — on 28th November, 2010 at 11:45 pm  

    Anti-Muslim prejudice is unacceptable.

    Then again, accusations that purveyors of such a bigotry aimed at a *faith* are “racists” are palpably ridiculous.

  24. Rumbold — on 29th November, 2010 at 11:49 am  

    Damon:

    The problem with this is that for every thousand on that march there are thousands more supporting them who didn’t march.

  25. ptl — on 29th November, 2010 at 12:16 pm  

    Why aren’t you indignant about the fact that almost all Muslim terrorists openly associate Islam with their terror atrocities and willingly and enthusiastically invoke it nearly every time before committing an one?

    why aren’t you indignant about the fact that almost all Christian extremists openly associate Christianity with their terror atrocities (murdering US abortion doctors, e.g.)?

    I think you need to learn some elementary logic. If you are capable of it.

  26. damon — on 29th November, 2010 at 2:03 pm  

    Rumbold … I’m not sure I get that fully. The biggest problem is those who actually turn out, or have turned out for the EDL at least once. The rest is just regular islamophobia I’d say.
    UAF may have detered the EDL from attracting less thuggish people, but making the day into one where there is a lot of excitement and the chance of having a punch up, also attracts people to their demos.

    An EDL march that is low key and nothing much happens, is for many of those who go (I’m guessing) a bit boring and a waste of time. Just like with football matches, the most exciting ones are derby matches where there is strong fan rivalry.
    Like this between Portsmouth and Southampton fans.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAHe8-66KAE&feature=related

    The EDL are violent type people, but the worst thing about them must be that they are insulting, coarse and crude (in a racist way).
    The real danger doesn’t lie in them themselves perhaps, but the reaction they might bring from those who feel most hurt by their lumpen sneering and taunting. Like what happened when the BNP said they were going to turn up un Bradford in 2001.

    Btw, UAF endorsing Cageprisoners, who the other day ran an editorial on a Guardian report about British based Afghans going out to fight with the Taliban for part of the year and then coming back to Britain and continuing with their lives here – and saying that was OK and understandable, gets you wondering where this chicken and egg story starts and finishes.

  27. Don — on 29th November, 2010 at 2:22 pm  

    Damon,

    …saying that was OK …

    Link?

  28. Grew — on 29th November, 2010 at 2:42 pm  

    Fun Fun

    Then again, accusations that purveyors of such a bigotry aimed at a *faith* are “racists” are palpably ridiculous.

    He he good luck trying to criticise some of the appaling things in Judaism and not getting accused of “anti-semitism”

  29. RezaV — on 29th November, 2010 at 2:53 pm  

    “Anti-Muslim prejudice is unacceptable.”

    Yes, “prejudice” is always unacceptable.

    But is being “anti-Muslim” ever acceptable?

    I would say yes, as long as one isn’t prejudiced about it. For example, I’m ‘anti’ only those Muslims who I consider to be unacceptably extremist.

    Except for the obvious ‘terror’ and violence definitions, here are some examples of what I consider as “unacceptably extremist”:

    1. A belief that in an ideal world Sharia law should replace liberal democracy;
    2. A belief that in an ideal world gays, apostates and those who have sex outside of marriage should be killed;*
    3. Support for Islamic government, full Sharia law and hudud punishment here or anywhere else in the world.

    Is there anything wrong with being ‘anti’ the types of people with the beliefs that I’ve listed above?

    Are they not, to use that oft-used mantra of leftists and soap-dodging ‘activists’, “fascist scum” who should get “off our streets”?

  30. damon — on 29th November, 2010 at 3:08 pm  

    Yes Don, I did a link to it the other day on another thread.
    It only seems to work in the ‘Cached’ mode now.
    Maybe Cageprisoners took it down off their site.
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WgPJD1kbG4IJ:web.cageprisoners.com/our-work/opinion-editorial/item/880-from-spy-cameras-to-spy-planes-british-muslims-under-surveillance-again+cageprisoners+spy-cameras-british&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

    It talks about non Israeli Jews joining the IDF, or other kinds of resistance, like the French in WW2, and then says:

    So why such hysterics with today’s Afghans who carry out similar feats? They live in the UK, work here, abide by the law, and pay their taxes. They pose no threat to the British public or Britain. They simply return to their country to liberate it from foreign armies detested by the local population.

  31. Don — on 29th November, 2010 at 3:31 pm  

    Damon,

    Thank you.

  32. RezaV — on 29th November, 2010 at 4:05 pm  

    “It talks about non Israeli Jews joining the IDF, or other kinds of resistance, like the French in WW2, and then says:

    So why such hysterics with today’s Afghans who carry out similar feats? They live in the UK, work here, abide by the law, and pay their taxes. They pose no threat to the British public or Britain. They simply return to their country to liberate it from foreign armies detested by the local population.”

    What cretinism!

    I would have thought such moral relativism would be too stupid even for knuckle-dragging SWP goons and swivel-eyed Islamists.

    1. When British Jews go to Israel to join the IDF they will not be fighting or killing British soldiers or soldiers from states that are allies of Britain.

    2. When Afghans (or more commonly, British-born ethnic-Pakistani Islamists) go to Afghanistan for a jihad that’s EXACTLY what they’ll be doing.

    The former example might be criticised as dual-loyalty. The latter is simply treason.

    Hence the “hysterics”.

  33. me — on 29th November, 2010 at 4:24 pm  

    RezaV

    The former example might be criticised as dual-loyalty. The latter is simply treason.

    Hence the “hysterics”.

    Says an Iranian who supports the bombing/invasion of Iran!

  34. RezaV — on 29th November, 2010 at 4:59 pm  

    “Says an Iranian who supports the bombing/invasion of Iran!”

    I’m no “Iranian”.

    I am ethnic-Iranian. I was born there. That’s a very different thing. I might hold an Iranian passport but I only do so because I’m forced to in order to visit Iran as Iranian law ‘insists’ that I have to be Iranian. (Iran doesn’t do ‘dual –nationality’).

    If I could, I’d happily flush my Iranian passport down the toilet.

    I don’t support the invasion of Iran. Neither do I support the bombing of any civilian targets in Iran. I do however support the bombing of military targets and those linked to the nuclear programme, but only after an ultimatum has been given and lapsed.

    Notwithstanding the above, you actually vindicate my point.

    I AM a traitor to Iran. That’s why I never give my full name or information that might identify me.

    In Iran, simply having my views would ensure imprisonment, torture and possibly death.

    As someone lucky enough to live in Britain, an infinitely more advanced and civilised society, I’d be far more benevolent to our ‘home-grown’ traitors than the Islamist Iranian regime would.

    I’d simply advocate removing British citizenship from anyone who held another passport and throwing their anti-British arses out and back to their country of birth or ancestry, where they’ll no doubt feel far more ‘at-home’.

  35. joe90 — on 29th November, 2010 at 6:22 pm  

    post #29

    So if the muslim world wishes to implement shariah in their countries and majority support that, what business is it of yours?

    Or is your view the neo con one of lets invade and kill em all if they don’t accept “liberal democracy” as you put it.

  36. Kisan — on 29th November, 2010 at 6:46 pm  

    #35

    Speaking of implementing shariah I read an interesting account of the methodology of this implementation in Pakistan at the present time. It involves targeted killings of communists:

    Extracted from:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/socialist_pakistan_news/message/18683

    Communist Party of Pakistan strongly condemns the audacious targeted killing of Comrade Latifullah khan, member CPP in village Gandigar ,District Dir , Pukhtoonkhwa province .

    Since the start of Taliban and fanatics insurgency in the province of Khyber Pukhtoonkhwa (ex. NWFP), a holocaust of the enlightened and educated people is underway through a very wicked planning.

    the PPF,(CPP) had gradually ceased its political activity in all the districts of the province and virtually came to stand still from January 2009 after the open announcements by radio the names of progressive ,intellectual workers death penalties by the taliban through FM radio services .

    Where in the mean time a huge number of PPF ( CPP ) members were killed through heinous barbaric ways as using slitting their throats and torchers ,which account is already given in previous press briefings and condemning notes of the party .

    Comrade Latifullah khan remained concerned to his professional duties and the party also did not kept him in contact in order to spare his life from the wrath of the jehadists ,where this area , since early 2009 is governed under strict medieval sharia laws and is classified an epicenter of the islamic jehadists activism and where they enjoy over whelming control in the area

    ————–

    As a Jamaati (Joe90 – or whatever bullshit name of the moment you use) obviously you share sympathy with his murderers and are a dangerous fanatic like them.

  37. Don — on 29th November, 2010 at 6:51 pm  

    Joe, it’s not quite as either-or as that, is it?

    If state X chooses to implement policy P with majority support, then it’s nobody’s business? Even if that involves massive (to those who generally favour a liberal democracy as at least a reasonable aim) degradation of human rights of a vulnerable demographic?

    The problem is that we don’t make it our business enough. Sure, the real-politikos mention it when it suits.And their trashy media make it mood music. But women, the young and the sexually transgressive are the first to be thrown under the bus when serious negotiations happen. But it isn’t our business.

    Supporting, for example, the Iranian protesters, does not equate to urging invade and kill. Although I concede that I have no idea what effective support might mean for the average person.

    And there is no such thing as a muslim world.

  38. Wibble — on 29th November, 2010 at 10:33 pm  

    “I would say yes, as long as one isn’t prejudiced about it. For example, I’m ‘anti’ only those Muslims who I consider to be unacceptably extremist.”

    No, it’s deeper than that because in other posts it seems that you agree with the “Eurabia” premise.

  39. Wibble — on 29th November, 2010 at 10:42 pm  

    What the taxi driver is doing is unacceptable

    IDF aside, what if GB citizens take a sabbatical in army with a poor human rights record e.g. Russian army in Chechnya, the Chinese in Tibet? Is the view that it’s okay still as long as they don’t fight us or our allies ?

  40. joe90 — on 29th November, 2010 at 11:19 pm  

    post #36

    i have no idea what your banging on about who the hell is Latifullah khan ???

    post #37

    “The problem is that we don’t make it our business enough.”

    i disagree, western governments interfere too much. you example the iranian protesters, was that not orchestrated from outside? Only have to read todays papers/wikileaks reports showing protesters where updating their american controllers with a minute by minute progress report.

    Iran has a lot of problems like unemployment and disaffected people, but as a casual observer its clear there are also outside forces involved in a campaign to destabilize the state.

  41. Shamit — on 29th November, 2010 at 11:34 pm  

    joe90-

    get some sleep – you always talk crap and the reason we need to intervene is afhganistan – the world left it alone and what happened – it became the graduate school of terrorism.

    second, every time sharia law or strict interpretation of the Quran is the basis of a country’s law – you end up getting brainwashed young people hell bent on finding enemies of Islam under every bed and believing in the stupid flawed theories of jihad and subsequent heaven and 80 virgins.

    third, today’s wikileaks shows most muslim countries in the middle east think Iran is a bigger issue than the Palestine issue – what does that tell you?

    but you are either a closet islamist with a big I or a big part of the loony left – take your pick – but Kisan and DOn are right and you are wronggggg.

    And one more thing, if we are getting involved in Iran its about fucking time – Iran is the paymaster of hezbollah and hamas who thrive on shedding innocent Muslim blood – they start fights they can’t finish and then they hide among civilians – and then they seek glory.

    Pathetic and anyone supporting them is either stupid or a fanatic – i think you are both -

  42. damon — on 29th November, 2010 at 11:54 pm  

    You’ve got to have seen Channel 4′s ‘Coppers’ tonight.
    It’s the whole EDL/UAF day in Bolton this year.
    http://www.channel4.com/programmes/coppers/episode-guide/series-1/episode-5

    English Defence League supporters are marching on Bolton town centre, with counter-demonstrators from Unite Against Fascism waiting for them. Tactical Aid Unit officers, who are trained to tackle heavy duty jobs, from knocking down doors to controlling football crowds, are expected to hold the line between the two opposing groups. It’s their job to keep the peace, whatever it takes.

    My opinion is that it shows all three groups of the documentary, the EDL, the UAF and the police as twats.
    The police show their thick violent side, the EDL their stupid lumpen thugish side, and UAF their childish studenty bollocks.

  43. joe90 — on 30th November, 2010 at 1:02 am  

    post #41

    Afghanistan school of terroism thats a new one. If your going to bring 9/11 and 7/7 in your usual mantra i think you will find saudi arabia was home of the alleged ringleaders and guess where the 7/7 guys where from hmmm any idea oh oracle!

    “anytime shariah law is basis of countrys laws it leads to violence” is that right as opposed to western europe and ameica right who don’t even colonise and bomb crap out of contries. lol, interesting which countries implent shariah law? this should be a laugh

    Wikileaks if we rely on the reports, actually shows none of the arab contries are independent and rely on the US from everthing from soap to implementing all their polcies they can’t do diddly on their own but seeing as your that dim you missed that one.

    Try answering my posts with intelligence instead of a neo con rant getting bored of it.

  44. RezaV — on 30th November, 2010 at 10:42 am  

    This thread is a microcosm of the widening gulf in understanding that is polarising society to the extent that it will ultimately tear it apart.

    Otto’s error:

    “…almost all Muslim terrorists openly associate Islam with their terror atrocities and willingly and enthusiastically invoke it nearly every time before committing an one?”

    This is correct Otto. However, your language is clumsy and the point you’re trying to make is, in fact, a red herring.

    The overwhelming majority of Muslims both here and throughout the world utterly oppose ‘terrorism’ such as 7/7, Madrid and (to a slightly lesser extent) 9/11. Such acts are actually condemned as un-Islamic by the majority of prominent and respected Islamic leaders.

    So when the EDL appear to be accusing all Muslims of supporting this type of ‘terrorism’ they’ve lost the moral and factual argument before they even march down the streets.

    The EDL should concentrate not on Islamic ‘terrorism’, which is opposed by the overwhelming majority of Muslims and non-Muslims alike, but on Islamic ‘extremism’ which is supported by a significant minority of Muslims both here and throughout the world and advocated by many respectable and prominent Islamic scholars.

    And before attacking Islamic ‘extremism’, the EDL should define what they mean by it. My post #29 will give you some ideas to start with Otto.

    It might help if you think of an analogy. If a group wish to oppose the BNP then it would be stupid to march down the streets accusing all BNP members of supporting the gassing of Jews. You wouldn’t gain much credibility or support with that. It would be better to concentrate on and expose the unacceptably extreme beliefs of the majority, or the significant minority.

    Joe90 is an excellent example of the point I’m trying to make. Clearly he supports the examples of ‘unacceptable extremism’ I described in #29 and as such he is an example of the “fascist scum” who most thinking Britions would agree should be swept “off our streets”.

    And he represents a very significant minority of Muslims here and abroad. However, because YOU allow him to say “I don’t support blowing people up on London busses” you’re allowing him, and stupid left-wing moral relativists to disassociate people like him from ‘extremist’ Islam.

    It’s complicated, but I hope you’ll understand. The handful of explosive-wearing virgin-seeking ‘shahids’ are not going to destroy us.

    But the hundreds of thousands of Joe90s skulking in those ‘Islamic’ societies within our universities, in British mosques and throughout our ghettoised ‘communities’ could end up doing just that.

  45. damon — on 30th November, 2010 at 4:35 pm  

    I can’t recommend that ‘Coppers’ programme I mentioned above enough. It really is an eye opener, even if you have seen footage of these events before.

    You really get to see what we are talking about with the EDL and UAF. Of course I’m not comparing them as equal. UAF mean well and are decent concerned people for the most part and the EDL are pretty repugnant.

    What I don’t agree with though is UAF’s tactics and way of operating. The EDL aren’t worth that amount of attention.
    I agree that their very existance is a concern as it could lead to a mood were Islamophobia was acceptable, and even coppied – like I think might have been the case with attacks on muslim students at UCL earlier this year in London.

    But still, just look at them (the EDL). They are the lumpenproletariat – not ”Nazis” who have much power.

    Reading that online magazine that a couple of the writers on PP really don’t like, there was this article today titled

    Al-Qaeda supporters on campus – so what?

    And I agreed with it mostly (I think). It then says:

    If there’s one place where people should be tested and provoked by all sorts of ideas, it’s the academy.

    http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/9954/

    Everyone needs to take a chill pill on getting so worked up about extremists I’d say. And that includes the EDL. They don’t have the power to do anything – and opposing them like UAF did at Bolton, is I think, just silly.
    Yes Cageprisoners are out of order for saying it’s OK for Afghans living here to go and fight NATO in Afghanistan ….. but still, it’s not that worth getting worked up over. It’s just their (stupid) opinion. And same with the EDL coming to a town with their hateful ”No more mosques” message. Best ignored.

    Maybe it’s because that idea is more difficult to spread widely, that UAF feel that they have to operate as they do. Raising the tempo and emotion of the event. And getting the muslim youth onside by sounding all bolshy and confrontational about the EDL.

    In that ‘Coppers’ programme at 36.40 in, you even see how a large group of Asian young men (200 the police woman says over her radio) turn up late all nonchalantly and trying to look tough (it looks like).
    They didn’t even want to be a part of the UAF studenty demo, but held themselves apart like that and just came for a bit of pride and to make themselves feel better – I’m guessing.
    UAF is sucking up (or down) to their level is my opinion of it, as they know that suggesting that the EDL aren’t such a big deal, and maybe they should worry about extremism in their own community before wanting to fight with the EDL, is too hard an argument to make.

  46. Shamit — on 30th November, 2010 at 4:50 pm  

    “Afghanistan school of terroism thats a new one.”

    yeah the plot for 9/11 was hatched there – most terrorists have been trained there. And, it has been the training ground for terrorists Joe or whatever your real name is.

    Yes Afghanistan – The independent reported in 2002 that over 4,000 Britons were trained in afghanistan and many many more others. I know in your islamic fasicst world it sounds unreal and even welcome but afghanistan was the terror hot bed in 2001 – there is no fucking question about that. So grow up and stop accusing people of being a neo con when the truth hurts.

    I am sure you also support Afghans living here as refugees and going back to Afghanistan to fight British soldiers – am I right?

  47. RezaV — on 30th November, 2010 at 5:08 pm  

    Damon, you’re arguing both sides of the same argument:

    First you write in #26:

    “… UAF endorsing Cageprisoners…”

    Then in #45 you write:

    “UAF mean well and are decent concerned people for the most part…”

    There’s nothing “decent” whatsoever about endorsing Cageprisoners, as you exemplified very well in your post.

    Also in #26 you write:

    “UAF may have detered the EDL from attracting less thuggish people…”

    Then in #45 you write:

    “…the EDL are pretty repugnant.”

    Well of course they are. Yo explained yourself that decent people are bound to be deterred from taking part when they know that UAF with their SWP and Islamist thug-members will be out there itching for aggro.

  48. damon — on 30th November, 2010 at 8:08 pm  

    Damon, you’re arguing both sides of the same argument:

    I do tend to do that.
    What I mean is that the people who turn up for UAF are mostly nice people. Students from the local university for example, who have been won over by the campaign by UAF in the weeks leading up to an EDL march.
    Whereas the people who turn out for the EDL are more backward and obviously thuggish. It’s somewhat of a class issue. And the ”town verses gown” thing can come into it.

  49. joe90 — on 30th November, 2010 at 11:12 pm  

    post #44

    for someone who defends edl members i let you carry on spewing your hatred pretty hilarious that you actually believe your own BS.

    post #46

    9/11 was hatched in afghanistan??? really you failed to mention the accused hijackers had a base in hamburg and where trained in the United states. Is hamburg due for an invasion soon in you neo con world view?

    Afghanistan trains people to fight really wow hallelujah what a revelation, the United states trains around 3 million people to fight and the uk trains 400,000 people for military combat. And coincidently many thousands of british jews join the israeli defence force to kill palestinians.

    So tell me oh oracle which one has the right to fight and which one does not?

    as the saying goes “one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.”

  50. Shamit — on 30th November, 2010 at 11:49 pm  

    listen sunshine – I am not a pacifist but something I know deep down – if my country is at war then I want my country to win. Is that simple enough?

    9/11 was hatched in afghanistan??? yes it was.

    And British and American troops are in Afghanistan based on the request of a democratically elected government – you see people vote and people get elected. I know you want Khameini style ruling and in fact you prefer Sharia – don’t you.

    So what’s next? Anjem chudhary the next hero of yours. Go on son you are doing well.

  51. An Old Friend — on 1st December, 2010 at 2:43 am  

    Shamit

    “third, today’s wikileaks shows most muslim countries in the middle east think Iran is a bigger issue than the Palestine issue – what does that tell you?”

    To be fair I think the opinion of the people in those countries may be a little nuanced toward Iran.

  52. Soso — on 1st December, 2010 at 6:45 pm  

    This is just more racist Muslim bashing from the EDL . For example if you look at homophobic attacks they are rarely ever carried out by Muslims.

    You’re full of shit.

    http://ezralevant.com/2010/10/gaybashing-in-amsterdam.html

    Gays, women and Jews need to support the EDL

  53. aziz — on 1st December, 2010 at 6:51 pm  

    Soso
    “Gays, women and Jews need to support the EDL”

    Yeah coz if they dont the Mozlems will take over like it says in “Eurabia”

  54. Soso — on 1st December, 2010 at 7:45 pm  

    Yeah coz if they dont the Mozlems will take over like it says in “Eurabia”

    That’s what those in the know say.

    http://euobserver.com/24/31386

  55. joe90 — on 1st December, 2010 at 9:37 pm  

    post #50

    for someone who is a tony blair fanboy we can safely say your view on the world is warped to say the least.

    afghaninstan and iraq democractic lol where the yanks come in put a gun to the entire nation and tell em to vote for the puppet of US choice? democracy by the gun, and you have the cheek to call muslims fanatics and bloodthirsty!

    If britian was occupied by a foreign force and the people told to vote or else that would be unacceptable. So don’t expect rest of the world to accept that BS either!

  56. Shamit — on 1st December, 2010 at 9:53 pm  

    is that what Anjem Choudhary and his cronies told you to say — now I am hopeful with intelligence of this quality – we do not have too much to worry. Oh no – actually lack of intelligence and brain washing make people put on the bomb vest. While the intelligent and the real dodgy ones sit at home.

    Which group do you fall in? Or are you one of those who could not get a girl and therefore chose to join the flawed logic of Chaudhary and his crew. You have some intelligence – there’s still time – get out of this warped logic.

    As the Prime Minister said today – you know what I would rather be Tony Blair’s fanboy than Anjem Chaudhary’s lapdog and messenger.

    Sonny, you think you are impressing a lot of people – nah most people are laughing at you my boy. So why don’t you shut the computer and do some reading and please not the manuals written by Chaudhary and his ilk… please please

  57. Shamit — on 1st December, 2010 at 9:56 pm  

    you know we used to have an old dickhead and warped individual like you called Munir who used to soil these hallowed pages – don’t walk in his footsteps please.

  58. joe90 — on 1st December, 2010 at 10:07 pm  

    post #56

    yawn! if you have no answers for your blatant hypocrisy except calling people terrorist don’t waste the electrons.

  59. Shamit — on 1st December, 2010 at 10:37 pm  

    mate you are hallucinating.

    What was the percentage of people voting in the last 3 Iraqi elections – over 70% dude.

    And over 50 odd percent voted in the Afghan elections.

    So the international forces went into everyone’s houses in front of the world’s media and forced them to vote.

    Okay – so you claim you are not a terrorist sympathiser but you are still on LSD – 70′s are over you know.

  60. joe90 — on 2nd December, 2010 at 12:53 am  

    post #59

    i have heard some spin but yours is pathetic.

    If britian is occupied by a foreign force and the people are told to vote that is your definition of fair and free elections lol.

    is it any wonder you think iraq is a great example of democracy or rather democracy at gunpoint!

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