A glimpse of anti-fascism from the 1970s/80s


by Sunny
28th October, 2010 at 9:20 am    

Much of this passed me by, but this video is excellent. Highlighted by Kevin Blowe, who says:

From a BBC Open Space programme from 1992, the much missed Newham anti-fascist activist and dockworker Mickey Fenn talks about the 1970s, when the most militant elements of the Socialist Workers Party and the Anti-Nazi League formed fighting ’squads’ to physically confront the fascists. The squads, which were later disowned by the leadership of the SWP, were the forerunners of Anti Fascist Action.

The clip talks of how the anti-fascists first confronted, and then later physically beat fascists off the streets to reclaim them back. Then only, they say, did people have the courage to come out and hold widespread marches against fascism.

At 3m 38s there’s guy in a red cap who says these immortal lines:

There’s probably quite a few liberals out there – trendy lefties – who are feeling quite uneasy at this talk of violence, and saying ‘there are other ways’. Well we’re not either – or – we’re both. We’ll try all methods. We have marches, carnivals, music events, we even have a travelling exhibition. Showng you all the truth of fascims. History’s proven that fascists based their philosophy on physical force.

If you’re not prepared to meet that force, with physical force, then you must retire from the political arena. Because the fascists feed on fear, and to ignore them is to encourage them.

I think the time for fighting back with physical violence is over, though I’m pretty sure if I was around during those more racist times I would have been involved in more than one scuffle.

Two points:
1) A guy talks about how housing is behind all these problems, and that rage makes the white youths easy pickings. Seems history constantly repeats itself.

2) Right-wingers (and this includes people like Boris Johnson’s advisor Munira Mirza) are fond of ignoring history and claiming that the rise of the BNP came as a result of ‘too much political correctness’ or ‘diversity policies gone mad’ – this shoots that down too.

The fascists weren’t carrying around banners saying ‘diversity officers out’ – it was more ‘pakis out’. That should give you an indication as to whether ‘identity politics’ fuelled the rise of the BNP or not.

3) Well done to all the activists who stood up to the fascists.


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  1. dave bones — on 28th October, 2010 at 9:43 am  

    I filmed Red Saunders from Rock against Racism talking about Lewisham 77. They do a walking tour of all the significant areas of the protest with people who were there giving talks every summer. There were loads of people on this one. I think it is quite funny that the most violent anti fascists always look like NF themselves.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl9x-oK_qZs

  2. dave bones — on 28th October, 2010 at 9:49 am  
  3. Richard — on 28th October, 2010 at 10:21 am  

    Sorry but can’t sympathise with the ANL and SWP forcing fascists off of the streets. This itself is no better than fascism – “I don’t agree with what you say so I’m going to try and stop you from saying it”.

  4. cjcjc — on 28th October, 2010 at 12:12 pm  

    “though I’m pretty sure if I was around during those more racist times I would have been involved in more than one scuffle”

    You tough guy, you!

  5. douglas clark — on 28th October, 2010 at 12:21 pm  

    So, we solve all problems by conflict?

    These people could just as well be arguing for something you don’t agree with, Sunny, as something you do agree with. They just see resolution of conflict through the lense of a brick, or a bullet or a bomb.

    Well, I am not a street fighter, and I seriously doubt that most people that write here are either. These folks are as guilty as sin of aggrandising their own past demeanours as some sort of virtue. What is it with these people? We were brave? Or what?

    We are a democracy, and that means, inter alia, that weak people – like me – are just as entitled to their opinions as muscled up thugs like the bloke that introduces the video. Disregard that, and you disregard democracy.

    I am trying to make a serious point here.

    _________________________________

    The guy with the scottish accent interests me. What evidence does he have for the tunnel he claims exists between the pub and the railway station? I’d have thought he was talking shit.

  6. Colin — on 28th October, 2010 at 12:50 pm  

    Sunny – that’s a nasty little smear against Munira Mirza.

    Her view (at least as expressed in Prospect) is that white racism is being fed by ill-judged diversity policies. She doesn’t deny the fascism and brutality of racists, either in the 1980s or today.

    As a Muslim growing up in Oldham she probably experienced more racism first hand than you ever dreamed of. The bigger difference between you is that she argues her corner in an intellectually credible manner without resorting to ad hominem abuse and distortion.

  7. douglas clark — on 28th October, 2010 at 1:03 pm  

    Colin,

    Sunny – that’s a nasty little smear against Munira Mirza.

    Where?

    Show me it.

    It is not, apparently in this thread…

    You appear to be farting against thunder.

  8. douglas clark — on 28th October, 2010 at 1:17 pm  

    OK,

    I have found what you charactarise as a nasty little smear.

    He said this:

    Right-wingers (and this includes people like Boris Johnson’s advisor Munira Mirza) are fond of ignoring history and claiming that the rise of the BNP came as a result of ‘too much political correctness’ or ‘diversity policies gone mad’ – this shoots that down too.

    I’d like to say that I think that passes as reasonable comment, but nut jobs like you and – I suspect – your chums on Harry’s Place see it otherwise?

    You see it as the truth, the damned truth, and nothing but the truth?

    Don’t you?

  9. Richard — on 28th October, 2010 at 1:18 pm  

    Should also add that the SWP, insofar as they are supporters of a revolution (Russia, October 1917) that culminated in the deaths of thousands, are no better than the NF, BNP etc. The Nazis had the Gestapo, the communists had the Cheka. That the SWP claim to be Trotskyist and anti-Stalinist is irrelevant, Lenin’s regime (supported by Trotsky) was also repressive and ghastly.

  10. douglas clark — on 28th October, 2010 at 1:46 pm  

    Richard @ 9,

    I do not agree. It seems to me that you are associated, subservient to, or summat, to the ruling class.

    That is what you would appear to believe in, and it also appears to me, anyway, that that is what you do.

    There, is, it seems to me, to be no difference between bending that knee to the Gestapo – which is just a paraphrase for State Control of your brain – or just an other organ of how the state tries to control us.

    You really have to take these ideas on board.

    It is not the case that a democracy hates you, neither it is the case that it loves you.

    It is just wrong to bend the knee to anyone…

  11. Colin — on 28th October, 2010 at 1:47 pm  

    Well, Douglas – “fond of ignoring history” is a smear if it’s not true.

    Go to Mirza’s Prospect and then tell us where she ignores history.

    Oh, and I have no connection to Harry’s Place or any other neocons. Sorry not to conform to your simplistic world view.

  12. Rumbold — on 28th October, 2010 at 1:53 pm  

    Cjcjc:

    Don’t mock Sunny- you should see how angry he gets when his local shop runs out of organic, free range, fair trade, vegetarian mung beans.

  13. douglas clark — on 28th October, 2010 at 2:00 pm  

    Colin,

    Well, answer me at 8, why don’t you?

    I have tried to access Mirz’s site, and apart from the obvious fact that she is drop dead gorgeous, I am unable to see any points of view.

    Beauty is all very well, but I’d like to see it backed up with a brain.

  14. douglas clark — on 28th October, 2010 at 2:06 pm  

    Colin,

    How did your comment suddenly get bumped to 11? It was that one I was replying to.

    Maybe.

    Rumbold, probably, is against beans in general. Though an otherwise semi-reasonable chap.

  15. douglas clark — on 28th October, 2010 at 2:17 pm  

    Rumbold,

    I am sort of sure that you are being lightly satiric when you said this:

    Don’t mock Sunny- you should see how angry he gets when his local shop runs out of organic, free range, fair trade, vegetarian mung beans.

    Am I right in saying that Sunny would be about as competent of fighting his way out of a wet paper bag as I am?

    As in, not very good?

    The difference, perhaps, is one of age. Sunny appears to think he could have made a difference. But I doubt he could, and I doubt I could have either.

    It is fantasy island stuff, and it is wrong from numerous perspectives, least that’s what I think.

    ———

    Love you lots, and other internet questionable content.

  16. Colin — on 28th October, 2010 at 2:37 pm  

    Douglas, I am not responsible for the peculiar workings of this website which seem to be as illogical and inconsistent as its owner’s brain.

    If you’re a reasonable chap then read some of Mirza’s stuff. I think you’ll recognise that it is coherent and that Sunny has misrepresented her.

  17. Roger — on 28th October, 2010 at 2:51 pm  

    Mirza does not “ignore history” at all. In fact, she uses it in her arguments. For example:

    While everyone in the policy world is talking about the rising problem of racism, the reality is almost the opposite. While there are still serious cases of racial discrimination, on the whole the British Social Attitudes survey shows a dramatic decline in racist attitudes over the past two decades.

    http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/2265/

    Now one can argue against her positions.

    But not Mr Hundal. Instead he has resorted to baseless slander.

    What a surprise.

  18. douglas clark — on 28th October, 2010 at 2:58 pm  

    Colin @ 16,

    Well, give me a link.

    I have gone up and down this thread and there isn’t a link.

    Provide me with one that actually works.

    ______________

    Incidentaly, I quite like Sunny Hundal. I am quite fond of him, so’s your idiotic attack on him doesn’t work for me. I might disagree with him sometimes, but I’d still see him as a chum.

    That, probably, is the difference between you and me: I can quite like somone I disagree with, sometimes, but someone that sees the wood from the trees, mostly..

    But, you can’t.

    Seems to me that you’d like Sunny to not talk to folk like me at all?

    Just, ’cause he shouldn’t or summat?

    Is it ’cause he’s white and I’m brown?

    I forget.

    Frankly, I don’t care.

    Sunny has let me post here, more or less since he started this site. As far as I remember he has advised me on how to conduct myself here, he has never, ever been prescriptive.

    To be fair, he has also given me advice, and when I have listened to it, it has been all too the good.

    Colin, to be honest, our good host has probably got a more sane brain than either you or I….

  19. Rumbold — on 28th October, 2010 at 3:18 pm  

    Douglas:

    Because Sunny doesn’t eat meat, his body lacks the energy to be particularly effective in a fight. However, he would prove to be a useful human shield, therefore should be included on any protest.

    I am pro-beans, provided they aren’t covered with creamy sauces.

    You make me laugh.

  20. douglas clark — on 28th October, 2010 at 3:36 pm  

    Rumbold,

    But all that fibre? Surely a few French Beans would toughen him up? Well, at least make him a bit stringy?

    I am only pro beans as long as they are covered in a creamy sauce. We are the creamy people, we hate the creamless!

    :-)

  21. Rumbold — on 28th October, 2010 at 3:53 pm  

    Douglas:

    You would think so, but sadly not. Not eating meat makes people angrier, but less effective fighters (their brain chemistry is altered so they can’t cope with complex situations).

  22. douglas clark — on 28th October, 2010 at 3:59 pm  

    Rumbold,

    By the way.

    You have read David Starkey’s book on the young Elizabeth, haven’t you? I seem to recall that it was you that recommended it to me. However, if you haven’t, and you’d like to, let me know, and it’ll be in the post to you.

    Fascinating to read how tough you had to be to be a royal back then.

  23. douglas clark — on 28th October, 2010 at 4:10 pm  

    We pro cream folk are not convinced!

    It was said of the early Greeks that they lived on a diet of olives, bread and wine, and look what they did!

    http://www.yourdiscovery.com/greece/greek_expansion/alexander_the_great/index.shtml

    ‘Course it could all be untrue.

    Perhaps they fed on a diet of Minotaurs and Unicorns and stuff?

    Perhaps not.

  24. Rumbold — on 28th October, 2010 at 4:17 pm  

    Douglas:

    I have rather a dislike for David Starkey. Though, in a very limited sense, he is not too bad on certain areas, he is not as good as he thinks he is. He is always very rude about female historians, which is doubly unjustified given that so many are better than him:

    http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/4110

    http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/4149

    http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/8242

  25. damon — on 28th October, 2010 at 4:31 pm  

    I used to know some NF supporters 30 years ago.
    Only because I used to follow my London football team home and away and we were all just teenagers.
    I have no problem with them getting bashed up now and again, as when they were in their NF guise, they could be pretty disgusting – for example having a bunch of National Front stickers in their pockets that said things like ”Kick out the ragheads” – which they used to liberaly stick on train carriages on the way home from a match. I used to try to talk them out of it but it didn’t do much good.

    At other times they could be quite a decent mate.
    Disapproving of picking on weaker people and having an (exaggerated) sense of honor and chivalry.

    But making them a bit scared of pushing their weight around is something that I generally agree with.
    They were seriously idiotic for the most part I found.
    All were supporters of Ulster Loyalism – and you can still see what the likes of their children might be like today.
    This was in Belfast in the last couple of days.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11626422

    My memory of those NF guys was, that they’d have loved all of Britain to have been more like the Loyalists in Northern Ireland and Scotland.
    Wished that (as the song says) ”Every day is the 12th of July”
    http://www.rangerspedia.org/index.php/No_Pope_Of_Rome

  26. douglas clark — on 28th October, 2010 at 4:58 pm  

    Rumbold,

    You are the one with the MSc in history, I am a mere dilletante, and frankly a newcomer to the subject.

    You say here that he is wrong:

    http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/4110

    It is pretty obvious that he is wrong, given that the three most important people of the era were women. That certainly doesn’t or shouldn’t justify him. Nor would it allow him to attack modern female historians. Does he do that Rumbold?

    But he appears to me to be in love with his subject here:

    Starkey D. Elizabeth.

    Don’t you think?

    I have read his book on Elizabeth 1 and I do not see that sexism there. Perhaps it is there and I have not spotted it? Perhaps it is not obvious because he appears to be in love with the young Elizabeth? Perhaps it is there and I don’t spot it because I think she’s a bit of a toerag?

    He makes a fairly strong case for her intellect, given the state of intellect at the time, and, given that, given her times, I agree with him. She was a moderniser, before modernisers were invented.

  27. douglas clark — on 28th October, 2010 at 5:05 pm  

    damon @ 25,

    Get to fuck.

    I am a Glaswegian and I hate that sort of shite,

    People have died because of that sort of idiocy.

    If you really think that, keep it to yourself.

    We are perfectly able to wind ourselves up without needing you to add flames to the fire. You didn’t appear to me to be that daft.

    Maybe you are.

  28. damon — on 28th October, 2010 at 5:23 pm  

    douglas clark, can you please stop doing your CU Jimmy impersonations.
    http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-gb%3AIE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7GZAZ_en&q=cu+jimmy&aq=f&aqi=g2g-m3&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

    I think I made it clear that I was opposed to my teenage football mate’s racism 30 years ago.

    In the same way that today there may be debate – (and even acrimonious debate) about whether a family member or friend should attend an event like the Global Peace and Unity one. And whether it was OK to give Zakir Naik rounds of cheers and aplause like happened in 2009.

  29. douglas clark — on 28th October, 2010 at 5:50 pm  

    damon @ 28,

    It is you that remains childish, not me.

    You continually bring up football brutality as if it excuses anything and then play a faux naif opinion to the shite you write.

    You write controversial shite here damon. It is what you do, it is what you enjoy doing. And then you pretend to be some sort of wee innocent. It might work for Londoners, it certainly doesn’t work for Glaswegians. We have seen your sort before and, well, fuck off, or grow up. Your choice.

  30. damon — on 28th October, 2010 at 6:38 pm  

    douglas – I have NO idea what on earth you are saying in at least half your posts.
    Like the last two. This thread is about bashing up the NF and such, 30 years ago. I related a few memories from that time and said that I knew a few of these teenage NF fottball fan/hooligan types.
    What’s the problem with that?
    I tried to talk some of them out of their racism on the long train journeys home to London back then, from places like Preston and Derby. But it was a bit of a hopeless cause.
    That’s all.

  31. Richard — on 28th October, 2010 at 7:00 pm  

    Douglasd Clark@10

    Sorry but I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make.

    I was simply pointing out that the BNP, NF etc are supported by people are who are “fans” of Nazi Germany.

    Similarly the SWP are supported by people who are “fans” of Bolshevik Russia. Bolshevik Russia was a nasty and repressive regime. If the SWP were to instigate a violent overthrow of the British state pursuant to their Troskyist ideology and begin repressing their “bourgeois” opponents it would be no better than the BNP coming to power and booting out the ethnic minorities.

  32. dave bones — on 28th October, 2010 at 7:50 pm  

    This argument is all theoretical innit. In practice people who grow up fighting like a fight don’t they. If the time for violence isn’t over there is at least a lul demo wise which I am happy about as I am not really into scrapping either. But a lul gives us an opportunity to talk and listen to everyone doesn’t it.

    A white person from Bermondsey might tell you that there was a race war in Bermondsey in the seventies and the whites lost and moved to Essex. They would also say other communities were forced on them by middle class idealists who wouldn’t dream of having a foreign neighbour.

    I like multi racial London, but I come from Middle class white suburbia. I don’t pretend to understand but I do like to listen to everyone even if they say something challenging.

    As for theoretically being pro or anti violence its just rubbish isn’t it until push comes to shove. I’ve had people come past me with blood pouring from their head on demos in the mid nineties when things are going off between anarchists and police shouting “We are doing this for you!”

    I disagree with them. They are doing it cos they like a fight.

    In the seventies as Red says in the video I posted which no one watched the Police were in cahoots with the NF. Now that is a totally different scenario isn’t it. Its the same as when David Spector and the Jewish people took on Mosleys lot in Brighton.

    These are different times and I accept that they are different times because of peoples actions. But we have to take advantage of these times to gain an understanding and work with it.

  33. damon — on 28th October, 2010 at 8:41 pm  

    Is there any point on hanging about a site like Pickled Politics when there are such weak commentators on it at the moment?
    I don’t just mean for me, I mean for anyone?
    I’d love to read more of Dave Bones and less of some mentalists who do the CU Jimmy act every day.
    Or who complain of Islamophobia at the drop of a hat.

    Isn’t PP meant to be better than a lot of other run-of the-mill websites?

    My opinion is … that beating up NF type people was a legitimate thing to be doing 30 and 20 and even 10 years ago.
    After that – in London anyway, they knew that they had to be careful of where they went.
    Which is good. Many of them grew out of it.

  34. damon — on 28th October, 2010 at 9:46 pm  

    And by the way, I don’t think there’s anyone on Pickled Politics right now to go up against what Munira Mirza has said in the past.
    A view can’t even be given on whether the Global Peace and Unity event was a reactionary one or not.

    I was alarmed by some youtubes I saw of the Global Peace and Unity event from last year.

    But have been impressed these last few years by the things that Munira Mirza has said.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/muniramirza

  35. persephone — on 28th October, 2010 at 10:45 pm  

    “in the seventies as Red says in the video I posted which no one watched the Police were in cahoots with the NF”

    Its not just from the 70′s. It lingers still. I had the misfortune to have to call the police twice in the last year and at both times they did not pursue things – either fairly or even impartially. Its understandable why groups do resort to taking matters into their own hands.

  36. dave bones — on 28th October, 2010 at 11:32 pm  

    I am sorry to hear that. Have you contacted the IPCC?
    http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/

    Reading all the above I am not sure who is seriously here to debate and learn from each other and who here likes to argue for sport, but I only pop by from time to time.

    I am interested in social change. I don’t know who takes that seriously any more. If you don’t take that seriously, then arguing is just chewing something. Times have changed, and some times remain the same.

    I was well enthused by the French attitude to what Sarkosy is trying to do.

    A friend of mine on her way back from France drove past a load of strikers. She was with her sister and her sisters little girl. Her car was surrounded and pelted. They called the cops and told them they were being attacked. The kid in the car was screaming. The cops came by, laughed and left.

    They were attacked by the strikers cos they were black.

  37. damon — on 29th October, 2010 at 2:55 am  

    Just reading Rod Liddle’s Millwall mates blog like I do most weeks, I was reading how they signed a new player called Danny Shittu, who is a big strong seasoned pro from Nigeria.
    He made his debut for the club and was cheered off the pitch as the man of the match in a recent win they had at home.
    http://234next.com/csp/cms/sites/Next/Sport/Football/5633799-147/shittu_thrills_millwall_fans_on_his.csp

    Liddle was deemed not fit to be the editor of the Independent because of some of the things that he was found out to have said under an online user name on this website.

    http://www.millwall.vitalfootball.co.uk/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=54977&start=1

    These people remind me strongly of my former pals from 30 years ago.
    Stupid, purile, immature and also funny quite often. Some of them are racists, and others aren’t – some of them would give you a punch on the nose if you got into a row with them, and others – or even the very same people, might be quite decent chaps who would stick up for you (whatever your race or background) if you were in a spot of bother.

    I only make this point because it’s so easy to be nostalgic about the past and paint things as black and white in your mind. Of course the NF etc had to be shown the door, and have made it known to them that their behavior was unacceptable.
    And just like punk rockers and skinheads and all the rest of them from that time, most of them are still probably alive and still living in your neighbourhood.

  38. joe90 — on 29th October, 2010 at 12:48 pm  

    post #34

    yeah i been impressed by munira mirza also, especially the corker article she wrote in prospect magazine when she claimed racism has disappeared lol what a laugh that was!!!!!!

    based on what facts and figures exactly you would ask?? her highly paid job as a token ethnic i believe!

  39. Colin — on 29th October, 2010 at 1:35 pm  

    What a contrast between Munira Mirza who makes her case in a sensible and non-hysterical manner and ‘joe90′, a snidey little Trot who hides his identity to smear and lie. Mirza never said racism has ‘disappeared’, did she, Joe? Can’t you win an argument without misrepresenting your opponent’s position.

    As for the smear about Mirza being a ‘token ethnic’, why not go the whole hog and call her an uncle tom or a house bigger? Your unprovoked bile says so much about your shitty politics.

  40. Bill Corr — on 29th October, 2010 at 1:40 pm  

    You mean there were beastly people saying ‘PAKIS OUT’ long before the 7/7 attacks and the Glasgow Airport attack and the ‘Dancing Slags’ plot?

    What awful, awful people!

    Thank heaven Britain now has lots of MPs and peers of Paklistani and Bengali origin and – these days – even 100,000 or more industrious and talented Somali settlers!

    Celebrate Diversity!

  41. africana — on 29th October, 2010 at 3:13 pm  

    damon,

    the thing with these facist groups is that hey have no real moral compass and as such, if the opportunity presents itself, use violence to achieve their aims. the same cannot be said of the speakers at the GPU, who, whilst they may disagreee with certain lifestyles make that disagreement within an islamic framework which strongly forbids acts or campaigns of violence, other than in self-defence..and, NO!…before anyone chips in, 7/7 was not an act of self-defence.

  42. damon — on 29th October, 2010 at 4:29 pm  

    I agree with you africana. That is an important difference. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t really have any problem with the GPU event being held, and would be appalled if the BNP were able to organise such a large and prestigious looking gathering.

    Also, my last post wasn’t done just to wind up dougie clark – and maybe I’d edit some of it out now if I could, but I was just trying to make this point that even ”The Nazis” as the left loves to call them, were also made up of some stupid young men who didn’t really know any better.
    The leadership was downright evil and the NF certainly had to be stopped one way or the other. So as I say, I don’t have much problem with them getting attacked, although I do wince at the thought of people getting hit in the head with bricks, like happeded at Lewisham in 1977. But it had to be done.

    link

    The thing is, the young ones I knew back then, felt like they were the ones who were being victimised in places like Lewisham, where it was black lads who hung around in groups and a couple of white boys coming back from football had to watch it and keep their heads down. Because they really didn’t want to be getting into a fight with some black lads in a place like Lewisham 30 years ago.

    Maybe this is beside the point and not the way this thread was meant to go, but I was just putting it from a different point of view. Some of the young NF blokes as individuals, felt emasculated by the way that neighbourhoods like Lewisham just changed and that if anyone was to get beaten up one evening, it was more likely to be them.

  43. Dalbir — on 29th October, 2010 at 4:59 pm  

    I think the time for fighting back with physical violence is over

    Well you never know when the winds change and bring about the ‘robust’ type of defence back into play, these things may go round in cycles so I don’t think that it is wise for certain communities to let their guard completely down as you suggest.

    though I’m pretty sure if I was around during those more racist times I would have been involved in more than one scuffle.

    Well, if you was, I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t give half of the brown, new generation ‘anti racist’ confused identity morons who post here regularly the time of day.

  44. Don — on 29th October, 2010 at 6:04 pm  

    the brown, new generation ‘anti racist’ confused identity morons who post here regularly

    Names?

  45. joe90 — on 29th October, 2010 at 6:30 pm  

    post #39

    is it a bird is it a plain no its the right wing shit brigade to the rescue!

    Calling for facts and figures has more credibility than proclaiming she has brown skin or asian sounding name i.e

    ehrc report states 1 quarter of ethnic minorities populate the prisons of britian.

    or the LSE report stating that black people are 27 times more likely to face stop and search by the police than whites.

    where are her numbers? where is her backup plan? claiming racism has all but gone???

    This miss mirza worked for those neo cons at policy exchange i am sure they could have provided her with some dodgy facts and figures as they are well known for:
    http://liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/14/policy-exchange-newsnight-and-hate-literature/

  46. Scooby — on 29th October, 2010 at 7:52 pm  

    ehrc report states 1 quarter of ethnic minorities populate the prisons of britian.

    or the LSE report stating that black people are 27 times more likely to face stop and search by the police than whites.

    Probably something to do with the fact that ethnic minorities commit a disproportionately greater number of crimes, sunshine.

    Consider this. Considerably more than 50% of the prison population is male. Presumably you regard this as evidence of discrimination against men?

  47. Ravi Naik — on 29th October, 2010 at 7:59 pm  

    the brown, new generation ‘anti racist’ confused identity morons who post here regularly

    Names?

    For instance, me. Because according to my brown “anti-racist” confused identity mind, his idea of setting up vigilante groups who would use physical violence to exercise law in their own hands, to be totally and utterly imbecile.

  48. damon — on 29th October, 2010 at 8:49 pm  

    Right-wingers (and this includes people like Boris Johnson’s advisor Munira Mirza)…

    Is Munira Mirza that different to Kenan Malik in what they say?

    http://www.kenanmalik.com/top/essays.html

    I haven’t read the latest Prospect article properly that so annoyed Yasmin Alibhai-Brown this month, who said of Mirza ”she presses all the right buttons for white people” …. so it would be good if someone could tease out the differences of their positions (for me).

    I think the two of them might see themselves as broadly on the same side. They have spoken at the same event, like here three years ago.
    http://www.battleofideas.org.uk/index.php/site/session_detail/245/

  49. joe90 — on 29th October, 2010 at 9:15 pm  

    post #46

    ahhh yes blacks are criminals and foreigners are stealing your jobs.

    hmmm where have i heard that before??

  50. Colin — on 29th October, 2010 at 9:32 pm  

    Joe90, do at least try to get your basic facts right, you SWP muppet.

    “is it a bird, is it a plain…” [sic]

  51. damon — on 29th October, 2010 at 9:38 pm  

    Another odd thing about the groups that used to want to phisically attack the NF and the BNP was – the group Red Action who just lived to inflict violence on fascists, after they formed in 1981, but themselves were complete and open supporters of the IRA.
    Two of their members were even convicted for exploding a bomb in a bin outside Harrods in 1993.

    There was this article about them in the Independent on Sunday in 1995. Which might be a different era by 15 years from what is being talked about here, but there are obviously some similarities.
    http://libcom.org/library/red-action-ira-london-bombs-independent

    I remember 20 years ago when you had these people, marching up Holloway Road in north London, (who supported the IRA more or less)…

    http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/727

    …. being defended by a squad of Red Action guys who also supported the IRA, against any right wing or just ”outraged citizens” types (like serving soldiers for example) who had turned up to oppose them.
    It was quite odd.

  52. Dalbir — on 29th October, 2010 at 10:03 pm  

    For instance, me. Because according to my brown “anti-racist” confused identity mind, his idea of setting up vigilante groups who would use physical violence to exercise law in their own hands, to be totally and utterly imbecile.

    Or…maybe it is because you are a physical coward or have never really had to deal with that kind of stuff? Or a mixture of the two?

  53. persephone — on 30th October, 2010 at 12:22 am  

    @36 Thanks – no I did not but useful to have the number

  54. Ravi Naik — on 30th October, 2010 at 10:39 am  

    Or…maybe it is because you are a physical coward or have never really had to deal with that kind of stuff? Or a mixture of the two?

    I can imagine if one is living in constant fear of racist thugs, this person would want to set up vigilante groups in communities to feel more secure. However, we do not want our cities and communities to be run by thugs and by force of violence.

  55. Waterloo Sunset — on 30th October, 2010 at 2:33 pm  

    @ 54

    The problem is, in the period you’re talking about, and for much of the 90′s (roughly up until the time the BNP chose to abandon confrontational street activity), the fascists were already active on the streets. Racist attacks, turning over leftwing paper sales etc.

    So the choice you present is a false one. It wasn’t between force on the streets and peaceful communities. It was between letting the fascists operate freely on the streets and opposing them. (And, yes, that did include meeting force with force).

    And it worked. The BNP did abandon the streets. C18 collapsed after the press myth of ‘aryan supermen’ was repeatedly shattered. Blood & Honour haven’t tried to hold a public gig since Waterloo.

    I can certainly understand people’s aversion to violence. Violence is nasty and brutish, it certainly isn’t glamorous. But even if you’re unhappy with the starkness of the tactics used, do you really think the results were negative?

    If not then, when? If not that way, how? If not us, who?

    If you’re wanting to know how AFA people thought, I’d suggest the best way is to ask us. Or pick up a copy of “Beating the Fascists” from Freedom Press. Only just got hold of one myself, but I’m told it’s very good.

    I apologise if me debating civilly has ruined people’s attempts to paint militant antifascists as apolitical thugs. You can pretend I threatened people, if that helps?

  56. damon — on 30th October, 2010 at 5:15 pm  

    Not liking Ultra Violence as depicted in the Clockwork Orange film, I was always a bit disgusted by the idea of seeking out random ”fascists” in pubs, like here as described in Glasgow, on a saturday afternoon 15 years ago.

    The plan of action for this Saturday is simply to patrol the pubs in central Glasgow, to con­front any Fascists or, if none is found, then just to “put down a marker”. Most of the 16 or so people in our group belong to Anti-Fascist Action rather than Red Action proper. AFA contains a broader range of activists than Red Action— some students, non-aligned lefties, for­mer hunt saboteurs, some black people and football casuals — not all of whom share Red Action’s Irish Republican views. But everyone here today seems in sympathy with the immedi­ate objectives of the Red Action hard-core who are directing activities.

    After this, they found and intimidated some young Scottish blokes in a pub who they thought were Rangers football fans – and so asked them did they support the BNP.
    With violence to follow if the Rangers fans said the wrong thing. I do have a bit of a problem with what they did, as they would attack people they didn’t like the look of.

    ”But they were defintely Rangers hooligans” is not a good enough reason to bring violence to a saturday afternoon bunch of guys who weren’t bothering anyone in a pub that day IMO.

    You wouldn’t like to be in the same pub this took place these days, and you probably wouldn’t like to have seen it 20 years ago.

  57. persephone — on 30th October, 2010 at 11:38 pm  

    ” and so asked them did they support the BNP.
    With violence to follow if the Rangers fans said the wrong thing ”

    sometimes just having the wrong skin colour is all it takes – no questions asked.

    I spose the fascists, in their lovely way, are also putting down their markers.

  58. Waterloo Sunset — on 31st October, 2010 at 12:07 am  

    The incident in question happened at the other side of the country, so I’m purely speculating. But if they were, as Damon suggests, “Rangers hooligans”, the Rangers firm did have direct operational links with the fascists at the time.

  59. Dalbir — on 31st October, 2010 at 12:10 am  

    I can imagine if one is living in constant fear of racist thugs, this person would want to set up vigilante groups in communities to feel more secure.

    I don’t think much of your imagination and hypothesising, I’d rather listen to people who have experienced, witnessed and dealt with such issues. Not an apologist like yourself, who goes out of his/her way to go on about how racism is some minor thing that barely exists in the UK today. Just like a regular token. They fucking own you mate.

    However, we do not want our cities and communities to be run by thugs and by force of violence.

    Actions have reactions and you can keep that ‘turn the other cheek’ crap to yourself. If you knew what you were talking about even a bit, you’d know that that namby pamby approach you espouse only encourages further aggression. It was the fact that much of the first generation ‘Asians’ here took a ‘sensible’ pacifist approach (for understandable reasons mind you), that helped bolster attacks against brown people in the 70s/80s etc.

    We’ve seen it emerge before, we know exactly how it was checked.

    Maybe the ‘new-gen’ theorists need to listen to experience rather than opening their mouths with uninformed bullshit?

  60. Waterloo Sunset — on 31st October, 2010 at 12:11 am  

    It’s also worth putting this in context. I’m assuming you’re basing this on the Indepedent article, where the journalist says they turned up after the fight had already started.

    Also, to quote directly:

    “There has been a small Scottish TUC sponsored anti-racism march that morning, and AFA expects that there will be some Fash around, looking for an opportunity to attack dispersing marchers. AFA’s tactic is not to join the march, which they regard as an easy target for a mob, but to surprise the BNP men and strike them pre-emptively where there is no policing.”

    Obviously, you can still disagree with that as a tactic. But omitting that part does seem somewhat misleading on Damon’s part.

  61. damon — on 31st October, 2010 at 1:13 am  

    I don’t think I’m ”misleading” Waterloo Sunset – any of this is available to anyone at a simple google search. The most significant thing from that quote I did (I think) is that it says that there were also for­mer hunt saboteurs amongst them, which shows the kind of people they were attracting then.
    And this was Glasgow .. very different to any place in England from what I can remember.

    The guys in the video at the start of the thread, who attacked the NF in the mid 70s, brought about this violent culture that dragged on for another 15 years in the guise of AFA and Red Action.

    This is a day that AFA remember with pride for example. They call it The battle of Waterloo because they attacked skinheads who were turning up for a Blood and Honor concert all around London’s Waterloo Station in 1992. So instead of being accused of being misleading, I just say, read it for yourself, or don’t.
    http://libcom.org/library/bash-the-fash-anti-fascist-recollections-1984-1993/15-waterloo-blood-and-honour-gig-london-1992

    This bit I found particularly unpleasant – as they never even knew who the people were really. Just sussed them out as lads who were going to the skinhead concert.

    The station concourse was nearly deserted. We discovered afterwards that British Rail had given Black and Asian workers the day off – pandering to racism. A small group of Red Action went into the station buffet and found a couple of skinheads who had been enjoying a quiet cup of tea. There was some loud rumbling and smashing sounds, then the Reds emerged unscathed and blended with our crowd. Five minutes later an ambulance arrived to cart off the two hapless fascists.

    To my thinking, justified self-defence had changed into something more sinister by this time.

  62. Waterloo Sunset — on 31st October, 2010 at 1:23 am  

    This bit I found particularly unpleasant – as they never even knew who the people were really. Just sussed them out as lads who were going to the skinhead concert.

    Um, what kind of people do you think would be going to a Blood & Honour concert? They’re a hardcore Neonazi organisation, not simply skinheads. Certainly, I’d accept it wasn’t straight forward selfdefense in the standard sense. Justified, we’ll have to differ on.

    Because the effects of letting the likes of B&H operate freely is undoubtably to give them the confidence to try and control the streets, which is what this was about. And the political program of the far right (which I don’t believe is reducible to violence per se) is one that would, given the chance, liquidate their enemies.

    Fascism doesn’t start with concentration camps. That’s where it ends.

  63. Ravi Naik — on 31st October, 2010 at 1:24 am  

    Not an apologist like yourself, who goes out of his/her way to go on about how racism is some minor thing that barely exists in the UK today

    I never said that. I just don’t share your paranoid view that racism is everywhere, and certainly not the idea that bigotry stems mainly from one race.

    Maybe the ‘new-gen’ theorists need to listen to experience rather than opening their mouths with uninformed bullshit?

    You don’t experience things by listening to other people. In any case, if you think that we live in the same era as in the 1970s, then you are probably not paying much attention either.

  64. Ravi Naik — on 31st October, 2010 at 1:31 am  

    And it worked. The BNP did abandon the streets. C18 collapsed after the press myth of ‘aryan supermen’ was repeatedly shattered. Blood & Honour haven’t tried to hold a public gig since Waterloo.

    Here is the thing. C18 was dismantled by Scotland Yard and MI5. And the BNP left the streets because Nick Griffin decided to make the BNP look more presentable, and despite UAF’s best attempts, they managed to elect two MEPs. EDL doesn’t seem to go away any time soon, despite clashes with UAF.

  65. damon — on 31st October, 2010 at 1:46 am  

    Waterloo Sunset, by using that kind of logic, about being pro-active against potential violent thugs – is it so much different to Charles Bronson’s vigilante ‘Death Wish’ films?

    Chinese people in Paris are under the impression that local muggers are targeting their community in a racist manner. But I really don’t think that upping the violence and attacking anyone they think is a hoody mugger in the area around the Paris Chinatown is the way to go. Do you?
    http://www.france24.com/en/20100621-france-chinese-anti-violence-demonstration-paris-met-with-tear-gas-belleville

  66. Waterloo Sunset — on 31st October, 2010 at 1:53 am  

    @ 64

    Combat 18 did fall apart after Charlie Sargent stabbed one of his fellow members, which I’m assuming is what you’re referring to? (Interestingly, there have been constant allegations that Sargent was working with Special Branch. See the Observer, 5th April, 1998 on that). But they’d already become moribund before that. The turning point was their humilation at the Little Driver in 1994. The much publicised letterbombing campaign was a sign of their weakness, not strength.

    With the BNP, I’d say it happened earlier than you suggest. Lecomber announced that the BNP would have “no more meetings, marches, punch-ups” as early as 1994. But that begs the question. Why did the BNP abandon the tactic of controlling the streets first and foremost, when Griffin had previously been staunchly in favour of it. Are you suggesting that if the BNP had managed to win the battle for the streets, they’d have still made the same decision? That strikes me as unlikely.

    The EDL are an interesting example. Because, despite occasional flashes of fiery rhetoric, the UAF really aren’t in the anti-fascist tradition we’re talking about. They even have David Cameron on their list of supporters. Their tactics really aren’t based round confronting the EDL face to face, they hold demos in seperate areas and get kettled by the police. And you’re right, the EDL seem to be going away soon. But, when liberal antifascism is currently strong and militant antifascism is tiny. (Really, it’s only a handful of antifa, who seem to have stagnated), that’s hardly a sign of the failure of the latter. Especially when you consider that the EDL’s main failures (Cardiff, Glasgow, Amsterdam yesterday) have also been the very places where there has been an upsurge in militant antifascist activity on the day, outside the control of the UAF.

  67. Waterloo Sunset — on 31st October, 2010 at 1:57 am  

    @ 65

    Actually, I think disiplinced street patrols, that specifically act against proven muggers (which is the difference with your example. I don’t think you can honestly argue that somebody attending a B&H concert isn’t going to be sympathetic to fascism, at the very least) is always wrong.

    To use a counterexample, in the Spanish Civil War, do you think it was wrong for the Republican side to fire against fascist soldiers if they weren’t being fired on first?

  68. damon — on 31st October, 2010 at 3:01 am  

    I broadly agree with the openning post by Sunny. I think there definitely was a time or occasions that the NF and local racists and fascists needed to be checked and halted if it was possible.
    The 1970s seems such a long way away from these days that it’s difficult to have it all in it’s historical perspective. For example – I remember one of our school teachers telling us of having gone to the Notting Hill Carnival in 1976 that summer, with some other (white) teachers from our school, and they had felt threatened when the riot kicked off. He even joked about how they thought they might have to get a bit physical and self defensive to get away from the trouble.

    I went there myself a few years later, and you could see that it wasn’t all one-way fascists picking on minority people back then. Brixton was my nearest tube station – just when the police thought Brixton was getting a bit out of control – when they started that Operation Swamp 81 which was a catalyst for the Brixton riots.

    There weren’t many fascists around Brixton in 1981 as I remember it. So did they really need these AFA types beating up people?
    That’s a question that I am quite open minded on.
    In other areas they probably did.

  69. joe90 — on 31st October, 2010 at 11:27 am  

    post # 50

    failure……. you can’t even refute the accusations or defend your neo con friends with any facts try again son!

  70. damon — on 31st October, 2010 at 5:04 pm  

    Joe90 – at least Simon Woolley gives an explaination as to why he thinks these things. You don’t.

    If you agree with him and Lee Jasper then fair enough.
    http://operationblackvote.wordpress.com/2010/09/24/sewell-blame-black-boys-for-underachievement/

    I tend to see something in the arguments that Woolley so completely denounces.
    He talks of ”Inequality Deniers” in the way that people talk of climate change deniers. I’m not a fan of that ”disagree with me and you’re a denier” way of arguing things.
    http://operationblackvote.wordpress.com/2010/09/28/the-discrimination-deniers/

  71. Waterloo Sunset — on 31st October, 2010 at 6:21 pm  

    @ 68

    I’m not quite sure of your point? To the best of my knowledge, there weren’t any AFA mobilisations in Brixton.

    I’m also unclear of why you draw the line at the end of the late 70′s. As I pointed out previously, the BNP didn’t formally abandon the strategy of “meetings, marches, punch-ups” until 1994. And Combat 18 collapsed at around the same time.`

    What makes you choose that particular period as the last point militant antifascism was acceptable?

  72. Dalbir — on 31st October, 2010 at 6:38 pm  

    I never said that. I just don’t share your paranoid view that racism is everywhere, and certainly not the idea that bigotry stems mainly from one race.

    You are exactly the type of idiot they wheel out to tell the rest of us that racism is some figment of the imagination. I mean, are you really so simple that you can’t grasp the idea of racists going underground and acting on their beliefs in a more covert, subtle form?

    I tell you what, odds are that you are just the type
    of token moron that they actually do patronise and keep about as some deflective tactic.

    You don’t experience things by listening to other people. In any case, if you think that we live in the same era as in the 1970s, then you are probably not paying much attention either.

    My point was that a change in situation, or a relapse say, may well mean that such tactics are appropriate again.

    Who knows what direction the UK will go in, in future? Maybe such things are cyclic in nature?

    I know a few people were considering this when the BNP were canvassing Barking and Dagenham, in the possible event that the more physical racists become emboldened and tried to resurrect their old ways should they have won.

  73. MaidMarian — on 31st October, 2010 at 7:13 pm  

    Just as a late contribution, I would hope that the trade unions get a bit of a look in here for their efforts at the time. This is not to say that they were perfect (far from it) but almost to a man and woman once a person was a part of the union, race did not matter. There is a strangely London centric view on here which might be a reason for overlooking the unions?

    It was not about black, white, brown – it was about class – it might have been a difficult analysis to love, but it was one that the National Front never countered.

    And Dalbir, to save you the trouble of flaunting your chip – no, I’m not saying that the unions were perfect, just that they did more for unity than your posts ever will.

  74. damon — on 31st October, 2010 at 7:52 pm  

    Waterloo – because times have moved on and those AFA people ended being not so different to looney hunt sabs. Violence should always be a last resort, and I think that those Red Action ones went well past their sell-by date.

    I’m not that intersted in 70s/early 80s nostalgia about bashing people up – but more interested in the Simon Woolley verses these ”BME right wingers” debate.
    It’s one that I have yet to see any meaningful discussion about online.
    As there’s just usually this clear divide, where it’s not possible to even discuss Jesse Jackson without falling into incriminations.
    https://operationblackvote.wordpress.com/2010/10/18/jesse-jackson-racial-profiling-is-not-a-hallmark-of-an-enlightened-society/

    It’s a pity that these difference of opinions have to fall into ”you’re a racist/BNP supporter” accusations though – and that ‘he/she’ is a neo-con. But I think (now) that this is as far as discussion on websites like this can go.

  75. Dalbir — on 31st October, 2010 at 7:54 pm  

    That is rich coming from someone like yourself MaidMarian.

    Typical of your ilk, anyone highlighting racism that you disagree with, has a “chip on their shoulder”.

    You must be one of the more dimwitted closet racists. Seeing as you haven’t twigged on to changing the language that was commonly used from that quarter.

    Yes, all the complaining wogs have chips on their shoulders. That explains it all.

    You don’t fool me.

  76. MaidMarian — on 31st October, 2010 at 8:08 pm  

    Dalbir – ‘You don’t fool me.’

    Goodness yes, how dare we think and form our own views when we have you to think for us and tell us why we are wrong.

    In all sincerity, do you not hold out the faintest, remotest possibliity that people are capable of forming a view based on taking people as we find them? I don’t (as far as I know) know you outside of these threads, yet I have formed a view that you are a panto dame.

    I don’t even know what your skin tone is.

    I don’t fool you for the very simple reason that I am making no attempt to.

  77. Dalbir — on 31st October, 2010 at 8:11 pm  

    Shut it mate.

    You’ve consistently tried to play down racism from what I’ve seen. Like a true twat.

    No wonder arseholes get away with it with hardcore apologists like yourself about.

  78. Ravi Naik — on 31st October, 2010 at 8:28 pm  

    You are exactly the type of idiot they wheel out

    Amuse me. Who are “they”? :)

  79. MaidMarian — on 31st October, 2010 at 8:36 pm  

    Dalbir –

    ‘Shut it mate.
    You’ve consistently tried to play down racism from what I’ve seen. Like a true twat.
    No wonder arseholes get away with it with hardcore apologists like yourself about.’

    Do you feel better for getting that off your chest?

    Have to say, like Ravi, I do wonder who this, ‘they,’ to whom I am supposedly in thrall are exactly.

  80. Dalbir — on 31st October, 2010 at 8:44 pm  

    Look the puppet and the puppet master have joined forces.

    lol

    I’m not wasting my time with you arseholes.

    You know what you are.

  81. Ravi Naik — on 1st November, 2010 at 12:04 am  

    Have to say, like Ravi, I do wonder who this, ‘they,’ to whom I am supposedly in thrall are exactly.

    Perhaps Xenu. :)

  82. damon — on 1st November, 2010 at 3:28 pm  

    This is the link to Simon Woolley’s Operation Black Vote site where what was said in the opening post about Munira Mirza and other right wingers is talked about.
    http://www.obv.org.uk/news-blogs/prospect-goodhart-and-race

    He mentions Munira Mirza, Swaran Singh, Lindsay John, Mike Phillips, Sonya Dyer, and Tony Sewell by name and says at the end ”It is sad that our own people should do this to us, but that is a reality of life, I’m afraid.” I only know two of the others reasonably well enough, but do find this idea that BME people are letting the side down if they have opinions away from what you might call the mainstream consensus.

    The link he does to an article by Abitya Chakribatea in the Guardian is actually quite weak I think, and as for the more than a hundred readers comments – opinion is clearly polarised – which is a pity. People seem to either disagree with the the article, and then there are others who come in and say that the amount of racism being displayed by such people, is proof of what the article was saying in the first place.

  83. Dalbir — on 1st November, 2010 at 7:44 pm  

    What’s the big surprise Damon?

    Some backboneless ethnic people have been cashing in on being the token mouthpiece since day one of white British domination of nonwhite lands.

    It is only idiots of Ravi ‘Wannabe’ Naik’s ilk and the MaidMarian’s of the world who clutch their handbags to their chests and act shocked, like they have never encountered such things. In Ravi’s case is probably a text book case of someone going to extremes to alleviate dissonance. Sad really.

    People need to face up the fact that there are white people want to play down and deny the prevalence of racism, especially the softer form. They use token ethnics who are actually being patronised and literally paid to do this. Being treated favorably for there tokenism is obviously a motivator.

    That isn’t to say a lot of progress hasn’t been made with racism, but to use that to put the brakes on dealing with it further as if everything is now hunky dory is complete bollocks.

  84. damon — on 1st November, 2010 at 10:09 pm  

    Dalbir

    Some backboneless ethnic people have been cashing in on being the token mouthpiece since day one of white British domination of nonwhite lands.

    There does seem to be a bit of that outlook in this whole debate I agree Dalbir. Personally I’d like to look into it furter, but it’s usually not possible, as people’s minds are often already made up one way or the other.

  85. Ravi Naik — on 1st November, 2010 at 11:39 pm  

    They use token ethnics who are actually being patronised and literally paid to do this.

    Again – who are they? Why don’t you name names? When you are pushed to answer questions, you simply run away. If you actually do not know but still believe in the crap you say, then I suggest you do not skip your medication.

    Just because I think your idea of setting up vigilante groups to fight racism to be totally imbecile doesn’t mean I am being “literally” paid by some racist bogeyman to speak up my mind.

  86. Dalbir — on 2nd November, 2010 at 12:02 am  

    They fucking own you man. Lock, stock and barrel.

    Twat.

  87. Ravi Naik — on 2nd November, 2010 at 12:19 am  

    He mentions Munira Mirza, Swaran Singh, Lindsay John, Mike Phillips, Sonya Dyer, and Tony Sewell by name and says at the end ”It is sad that our own people should do this to us, but that is a reality of life, I’m afraid.” I only know two of the others reasonably well enough, but do find this idea that BME people are letting the side down if they have opinions away from what you might call the mainstream consensus.

    I have yet to read what Munira Mirza and others have written, but you can see something is wrong when you expect people to parrot an established narrative (also known as the “experience”) or you are letting down your race (or gender, etc).

  88. persephone — on 2nd November, 2010 at 12:23 am  

    Panto dames.

    Puppetmasters (Ravi, I never knew you were controlling MM)

    The ‘are they aren’t they’ match made in heaven of Dalbir & Damon (surely opposite sides of the same panto donkey?)

    You can sure tell tis the season.

    Sadly, at the risk of being called a mouthpiece of white domination/wannabe/backboneless ethnic/hardcore apologist (plus any other thing that can be thrown instead of a valid argument), I mean Xmas not Diwali.

  89. Shamit — on 2nd November, 2010 at 12:24 am  

    Spot on Ravi. Well said.

  90. Shamit — on 2nd November, 2010 at 12:24 am  

    Perse – once again a classy intervention. I like your style.

  91. Dalbir — on 2nd November, 2010 at 12:26 am  

    Oh look. The same old apologists flock in defense….

    Sadly, at the risk of being called a mouthpiece of white domination/wannabe/backboneless ethnic/hardcore apologist

    Why piss about, if the cap fits so perfectly?

  92. Dalbir — on 2nd November, 2010 at 12:29 am  

    But hang on, if I perceive things to be hunky dory, then they must be everywhere…

    wtf

    Look I know some of you guys want jobs in media desperately, or already have them, but please don’t expect all of us to swallow your line.

    The use of sycophants or ‘go alongs’ to pipe certain messages is nothing new, and stop acting like it doesn’t go on and isn’t a typical tactic used.

  93. Shamit — on 2nd November, 2010 at 12:34 am  

    And the same old bitter fart man can’t seem to get over the fact that for British Asians this is their country – not some refuge but their hoeland.

    The hatred and the frustration, at the world failing to see the light as the sage Dalbir sees it, is bubbling on the surface – and can you imagine the impertinence of these young upstarts to be reasonable and articulate and embrace their nationality as well as their heritage so well.

    Oh my my…poor old Dalbir – though I think you are a twat of the highest order; I don’t resent you – I pity you.

  94. persephone — on 2nd November, 2010 at 12:36 am  

    Dalbir are you the one at the front or back of the panto donkey? C’mon I don’t expect it to be the front because of white supremacy.

    Am just sayin all of this because I wanna a job in meja & this will look good on my CV. Honest injun.

  95. Dalbir — on 2nd November, 2010 at 12:38 am  

    Fine, but you yourselves, don’t act so surprised if everyone isn’t rushing to jump into your conceptualisation of what it means to be a ‘British-Asian’.

    And don’t act like you speak for the rest of us either.

    That’s what is so annoying, you are so far removed from most ‘Asians’.

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