Where is the Asian outrage over a racist murder?


by Sunny
27th October, 2005 at 4:17 am    

On Monday, Asian Network’s Sonia Deol held a lively debate on the Birmingham riots. One after the other community leaders said they had the situation under control.

Fat chance. The BBC Asian Network has always had a soft spot for community leaders. Any problem and a helpful array of local leaders, religious representatives or local councillors call up to offer their opinion.

Two days before, on Saturday 22 October, a 23 year old man was innocently walking back from the cinema with his brother when he was set upon by ten to eleven thugs and brutally murdered. His brother was also stabbed.

If he had been an Asian kid set upon by white or black youths there would have been outrage within our community. Instead, because it was a young African kid murdered by a gang of Asian youths – there was, and still is, silence.

He wasn’t the only one either. Aaron James, 18, was shot dead less than a mile from the scene of the rioting on Sunday.

Yet it took a group of around 70 women and children yesterday to hold the first joint demonstration condemning the brutal murders.

Unsurprisingly there was not a single Asian “community leader” to be seen, presumably because there was hardly any media interest. Where was the head of the Sikh Gurudwaras or the Mosque in Birmingham? More importantly, why wasn’t Khalid Mahmood MP there?

Salma Yaqoob, vice-chair of the Respect party, blamed “a vacuum in local Asian leadership” in the Guardian on Tuesday. But isn’t the head of the Birmingham Central mosque, of which she is a spokesperson, supposed to provide leadership?

Since the violence erupted in Birmingham, both the African and Asian communities have adopted a position of defensiveness. The former claim that they are being economically and racially being discriminated against, while the latter say that they had nothing to do with the violence.

Yet, some of the first scenes of violence came on Saturday when a groups of Asian youths attacked a congregation (outside a Church) that had gathered to discuss the allegations of rape.

Racial politics in Britain have gotten to such a politically correct phase that if an Asian or African youth gets murdered by someone white – it makes national headlines. If the reverse happens, people don’t really want to talk about it – specially from those ethnic communities.

Asian media itself cannot shirk from its responsibility in reporting the murders in full. Meanwhile the BBC’s coverage of the two murders has been pathetically minimal, extending to both the Asian Network and 1Xtra – paralysed by political correctness.

Meanwhile, Asian and African gangs are freely roaming Birmingham and killing people yet the police response has been inadequate and the government does not seem too bothered.

Our “community leaders” meanwhile have said nothing condemning the two murders. Where is the outrage? Where is the solidarity? Where are the attempts to control the Asian gangs?

The fact is, as Navid Akhtar said last week in his documentary, they are so out of touch with the youth that they have no hope of controlling them.

They do not express any outrage because they have never really cared much for building bridges with other communities until a media opportunity comes along. Then they all clamour to get on radio and get their voices heard.

It is left to the ordinary women to do their jobs for them.


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  1. Yusuf Smith — on 27th October, 2005 at 6:01 am  

    Salma Yaqoob, vice-chair of the Respect party, blamed “a vacuum in local Asian leadership” in the Guardian on Tuesday. But isn’t the head of the Birmingham Central mosque, of which she is a spokesperson, supposed to provide leadership?

    Unless the killers are Muslims, which I understand is not certain yet, why would the mosque have anything to do with this? Even among Muslims, not all are that religious or would listen to what the imam or the head of the mosque committee told them.

  2. Kulvinder — on 27th October, 2005 at 6:19 am  

    Every ‘community leader’ ive ever seen on tv gave the appearance of a tin-pot dictator in a banana republic. There is a tendency amongst the media at large to rely on ‘community leaders’ as a focus point for their stories – a point of reference which can be used to ‘explain’ the situation their readers/viewers.

    The reality in my experience has always been far more complex. The ‘average white anglo-saxon protestant’ teenager could never be pigeonholed by a single influence. Its wishful thinking and more than a little patronising to suggest otherwise for the average ‘ethnic minority’ teenager.

    The anger and the mistrust that exists between some afro-carribean and asian youth will be overcome by themselves. The white racism which was so prevalent in the 60s, 70s and 80s was not overcome via ‘community leaders’ but by challenging with compassion and empathy the injustice of those times.

    The same is true now, long after the press has given up trying to understand an ‘ethnic conflict’ that won’t sell copy and long after the generic community wallah and MP we’ve never heard from before have had their time in the limelight, the brown and black youths will confront their own bigotry and animosity. They’ll grow older and wiser, and hopefully teach their children to be different. Its always been that way.

  3. Bijna — on 27th October, 2005 at 8:54 am  

    Stop calling them Asian. The Chinese, Mongols, Japanese and Russians have nothing todo with this. They are Pakistani.

  4. John Christopher — on 27th October, 2005 at 9:58 am  

    It shames me to admit this, as a black man, that members of my own community are racist. The sad fact that it took a lie, a riot and two murders for me to finally come to this realisation is something WE should all be concerned about. Why? Because it’s blindingly obvious that the Black Community are not the only ones who have got a problem with race. I have a God-son and a sister (long story) who are Sikh. I went to school and maintain close friendships with members of both the Hindu and Muslim communties. Alas, most Black people know little and care less about subtle inter-communal differences which exist within the wider Asian diaspora based in the UK. It is for this very reason that “Community Leaders” from all the main faiths should have put in an appearence at the peace rally. That fact that they didn’t pitch, speaks volumes. And so is their silence…..

    I’ll move on. I shed little tears for the gangbangers and dopeheads on boths sides who used used rumour as a excuse to commit mayhem and murder. Let me quite clear about this. The people who were responsible for the murder of Isiah Young-Sam were NOT all asian. There is at least one black pirate radio DJ (Warren G) with blood on his hands and many others within the black community who have failed to face up to their own responsibility of peddling fiction as fact. This is where it as lead us.

  5. christopher davis — on 27th October, 2005 at 10:17 am  

    Khalid Mahmood was there, and as for the comment about whether or not it was Muslims – it shouldn’t matter, all religions active in the area should condemn the violence and try to ease the situation. I find it hard to believe there weren’t Muslims involved, as well as Christians, Sikhs, Hindus atheists, agnostics and a few more. Whoever these people were, they obviously took no notice of any religion.

  6. T Nathan — on 27th October, 2005 at 10:50 am  

    responsibility lies with individuals and the labour government. Best put by a telegraph reader:

    Sir – In your report on the disturbances in Birmingham (October 24), Derek Bishton is quoted as saying “Saturday’s rioting was about respect which one community [black] believes it has earned”. Well, if a culture that lives off benefits believes it deserves respect for improving its lot by drug dealing, then it is sick and needs a cure of education and hard work.

    If the riot in Lozells between Asians and Afro-Caribbeans was about “respect”, then it might bring our deluded Prime Minister to his senses. It is typical of him to have adopted an eye-catching streetwise term “respect” as a thrust of his third term in office without being remotely aware of its meaning to certain communities and its propensity to cause violence.

  7. kitten — on 27th October, 2005 at 11:18 am  

    Glad the Telegraph reader made those points.

    Time and time again I have heard/read comments about ‘asians’ trying to suppress the blacks in terms of business… If it was that hard then how come there are so many Somalian shops in B’ham these days? They have found a way to get into the market. We live in a world where you have to put in the work and of course it’s competetive… does the black community want some sort of positive discrimination?

  8. John Christopher — on 27th October, 2005 at 11:54 am  

    I know enough about the asian community to know that they have got their own problems. I’m a educated, articulate black man, even if I say so myself. I’m not alone. Contrary to popular belief, we are not all scroungers and benefit cheats. We don’t ALL commit murder at the drop of a hat. Some of us even know the true value of the word respect. I can’t tell you the amount of times I’ve come across some poor asian woman beaten black and blue for the sake of “Honour”. So let’s not go there. It all sounds like the pot calling the kettle black (pun intended). At the end of the day the black community should stop acting like whinging poms and get their collective shit together. Blaming each other for our own faults is pointless, even in the best of times. Black people have been breaking that donkey’s back for ages now and look where it has got us, nowhere. Asians should mind that they don’t make the same mistake, if they haven’t already. I have no intention of living in the box imposed by my race and culture. That’s why I opposed the white man and any black or asian turncoat who follows his creed. Telling lies and provoking murder is wrong whether it’s was committing for the purposes of stealing oil in Iraq or stealing businesses in Birmingham.

  9. Kulvinder — on 27th October, 2005 at 12:34 pm  

    …Well, if a culture that lives off benefits believes it deserves respect for improving its lot by drug dealing, then it is sick and needs a cure of education and hard work…

    Apparently ‘they’ can all sing and dance, have massive dicks and have the intelligence of the average ‘white’ 11 yr old.

    :rolleyes:

    Stop calling them Asian. The Chinese, Mongols, Japanese and Russians have nothing todo with this. They are Pakistani.

    The pakistanis say they’re kashmiri, well mirpuris. The mirpuris in turn say its the fault of one particular pindh high in the mountains that basically isn’t very bright. The people of that pindh say its the fault of one man whose wife bonked his goat out of spite. Their kids were never the same after that and the genes kinda filtered through.

  10. David T — on 27th October, 2005 at 12:34 pm  

    Sunny

    There are two important points here.

    1. HOW MARCHES GET ORGANISED

    Marches, memorials, rallies happen because people organise them.
    It would have been an important moment, had some form of jointly organised commemoration – between churches, mosques, gurdwaras, trade unions, civil groups, tenants associations, and so on – been organised.
    It wasn’t. That may be because the groups hate each other. Or because there aren’t lines of communication open. Or, simply, because it takes an enormous amount of time and effort to organise a successful rally, and if you aren’t experienced in doing it, you won’t succeed.

    2. HOW THE RESPECT/SWP/MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD COALITION OPERATES

    Salma Yaqoob was the first “community leader” to give her comment to the BBC, on Sunday. On Monday she had an Op Ed piece in the Guardian, courtesy of the RESPECT sympathising and promoting Comment editor, Seamus Milne.

    What you’re seeing here is the RESPECT machine in operation. This is a cynical attempt by Galloway’s party to try to raise its profile, ahead of the council elections. Birmingham is one of their big targets.

    Just as Ligali used a rumour about a rape to press their campaign for black businesses; this march is an attempt by RESPECT to push its own agenda.

    When Yaqoob says “there is a vacuum in local Asian leadership”, what she means is “RESPECT will fill that vacuum”.

  11. David T — on 27th October, 2005 at 12:35 pm  

    John Christopher:

    “Telling lies and provoking murder is wrong whether it’s was committing for the purposes of stealing oil in Iraq or stealing businesses in Birmingham. “

    Were you on the demonstration in Birmingham?

  12. David T — on 27th October, 2005 at 12:41 pm  

    One final point.

    Salma Yaqoob is the “spokeswoman for Birmingham Central mosque”, according to her Guardian piece.

    The chair of Birmingham Central mosque – Dr. Mohammad Naseem – is the largest single donor to RESPECT, and provided over half that party’s declared funding.

    He also runs a party called The Islamic Party of Britain, which calls for the enactment of sharia in the United Kingdom, and specifically calls for the execution of homosexuals. It also publishes conspiracy theories about the World Trade Center bombings.

    Dr. Mohammad Naseem, you will remember, when shown the tape in which Mohammed Sidique Khan explained why he had carried out the terrorist murder of people on the Underground in London, expressed the view that “it could have been doctored”.

    He called for an independent inquiry to establish whether the bombers were Muslims, saying the situation was “not clear”.

    He said: “We are in the 21st Century. The cows can be made to look as dancing, the horses can speak like humans, so these things can be doctored or can be produced.”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4210566.stm

    Somehow, I don’t think that RESPECT is in a position to provide the sort of “leadership” that Birmingham needs right now.

  13. Tired of Pretending — on 27th October, 2005 at 12:48 pm  

    respect for publishing this story… is the beginning of a new beginning?

  14. Nyrone — on 27th October, 2005 at 1:10 pm  

    I think this is a great article, because towards the end you reach the heart of the problem with reference to the blatant truth that all these so-called ‘community leaders’ READ HERE: Insulated cultural segregationalists, never really gave a damn about intergration and sharing of infomation with each other in the first place.

    It’s bizzare how ridiculous their comments are when they come out of hiding for 10 mins with a film crew or radio interview, it seems they are the embodiment of preaching one thing and practically implementing something different. Hearing the wise and calm words of these folk, you would think that they were right on the money, but that’s the problem…..It’s all in theory, they don’t follow their own preachings, instead they avoid discussion about practical steps to intergration entirely. It’s all talk talk.

    Sunny/ I think you are being too hard on Salma Yaqoob and the respect party. Do you expect her not to have an agenda? BBC has an agenda, as does Al-Jazeera, as does pickled politics…Respect makes no qualms about making clear that they have political aims, and their manifesto makes clear some changes they wish to make. If they feel that it’s partly the fault of the goverment (which it is) don’t they have a right to shout that out from the rooftops, seeing as they are opposing the labour goverment? How can it be opportunism if they have already wished to make clear that they wish to expand and hold power?

    I’ve spoken to at least 5-6 candidates from the Respect party including Galloway, Ridley and Yaqoob and they all strike me as compassionate human beings with good intentions and a drive to positevley change the way in which this country is governed. I don’t think they are exploiting the situation, I think they are stating the obvious.

  15. rashid — on 27th October, 2005 at 1:25 pm  

    I couldn’t agree more david T , but stop slinging mud, why don’t you and your ex-trots give solutions than constantly moan.

    I think what muslims need most is guidence and there are too many issues to solve. You media monitorers are useless and will achieve nothing, if your main purpose is to propogate negative streotype and have a giggle amonst your clan , then you simly antoganise muslims. Your a man with wrong intentions and not worth talking to.

    so start providing solutions , think beyond the box. ask harry ?

    Labour friends of iraq hasn’t worked, simply a list of pro war lefties . that was a bit cheeky of you lot wasn’t it? But something like that .

  16. Amir — on 27th October, 2005 at 1:31 pm  

    There is Asian outrage they are outraged because they didn’t want this trouble or ask for it.

    There are no child rapists there is no evidence, the police have carried out forensic searches, the alleged rapists voluntarily went to the police to be interviewed with today’s modern DNA technology they would have found evidence of an attack, from hair, skin, fibres and vast amounts of seaman from 19 men.

    Certain websites like Ligali & supatrax have a shocking level of hatred for Asian people is seems to be so deep they are prepared to attack a whole community regardless of any evidence, common sense is lacking here, they haven’t thought about the facts of this alleged rape at all.

    These websites are the Black equivalent of the NF why do you hate Asians so much? Why do they insist on saying a rape took place before evidence is available? Asians are not interested in this Race War that some are intent on. We just wan to provide for our children & families and make money and worship in our holy places in peace leave us alone.

    If they have problems they should sort them out we did. We were also colonised by imperialists, we also suffer racism & prejudice, but we got on with it so should they and stop attacking Asians.

    They should instead focus on why people were willing to believe a rumour and stigmatise a whole community rather than the individuals, and they should stop the youth mugging looting and attacking Asian shops, focus on these problems and stop the racism against Asians because we are not interested and too busy to get involved in this nonsense.

    Now that it seems clear to everyone that their is no rape, some have started to blame everything they can think of form the white media, to the council, to the government, to a lack of respect (what the hell is this respect thing) what do they want Asians to tip their hat to every Black person that the come across? This is all rubbish stop looking for excuses now that you have been exposed. Blame the people who are responsible.

    1. THE INSTIGATORS – Jealous business rivals & other individuals.

    2. THE INCITORS – Gullible demonstrators with obvious prejudices, racist extremist websites, DJ’s & radio stations, incidentally in Rwanda and estimated 800,000 people were massacred and a lot of this violence was incited over the radio.

    3. THE PERPETUATORS – Criminal gangs whose sole intent was to steal, loot and physically assault as many from another race as possible.

  17. David T — on 27th October, 2005 at 1:34 pm  

    All I’m saying is that if you look to RESPECT to sort things out, you’ll end up being led by the SWP “world revolution” loons, the Muslim Brotherhood “caliphate” obsessives, or the junket-king Galloway himself.

    Yeah, I do think that you’ve got to build a sensible local politics, which focusses in a realistic manner on the genuine problems that people face in Birmingham. I don’t think that can be done in a way that doesn’t involve people on a cross-communal basis.

    I’m a blogger, not a political leader. I’m not setting up any party at all. I don’t live in Birmingham. I just comment on things.

  18. David T — on 27th October, 2005 at 1:42 pm  

    Given that there has been a sudden influx of RESPECT activists into this thread, I think I’ll continue, if you don’t mind

    (Sunny – tell me when you want me to shut up ;)

    I would recomend reading the article by Salma Yaqoob in the Guardian, if you want to know where RESPECT is coming from these days:


    If public funding grants in north-west Birmingham are examined, African-Caribbean projects have received the largest proportion. Millions have been invested in helping black enterprise and training projects. The Sikh community received one substantive European grant, and the Pakistanis and Bangladeshis have received the least.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1599734,00.html

    This is then followed by some SWPish tosh about the need to “must come together and demand the resources that the area needs” and the role of the Liberal Democrat-Tory coalition that runs Birmingham city council and has increased pressure to divert resources from inner-city areas to more affluent suburbs.

    But what is her point about the grants, and why is she raising it?

    Basically, the RESPECT line is “blacks are getting all the grants, asians are getting almost nothing”. What a stupid, divisive way of arguing for the community to “come together” etc..

    The SWP/Muslim Brotherhood/Galloway /RESPECT coalition is a communalist party. It wins seats by playing on the fears, prejudices and hopes of cultural minority groups. At the moment, the groups they’re focussing on are primarily Muslim, and it has delivered the SWP the only real political success they have ever had.

    The SWP has always worked like this. In the 1980s and 1990s, the SWP thought it was going to build a mass revolutionary movement by recruiting black cadre. Black people saw through what they were up to, and so, I suspect, will asian people.

    Given that RESPECT is in formal alliance with the Muslim Brotherhood/MAB it will particularly have problems recruiting the following types of people

    - any muslims who are not Muslim Brotherhood supporters;
    - any other asians;
    - anybody who is interested in creating a non-communalist, liberal politics
    - anybody at all who isn’t a bit mad, or easily fooled

    Given that RESPECT’s major funder is a man who thinks THAT GAYS SHOULD BE EXECUTED AND THAT THE VIDEO CLAIMING RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE 7 JULY BOMBING WAS A FORGERY, I think they’ve got a bit of a problem going forward.

    I very much doubt whether they have anything positive to contribute to Birmingham. Don’t you?

  19. David T — on 27th October, 2005 at 1:51 pm  

    Of course by “major funder”, I am assuming that RESPECT isn’t funded in party by, say, money made from oil allocations nicked from the Oil for Food programme.

  20. KK — on 27th October, 2005 at 1:57 pm  

    HMM the west created a lie, invaded a country to steal its resources. so why not do this on a micro scale. create an allegation. start a war, steal resources. great idea all we have to do now is thank BUSH and BLAIR.

  21. David T — on 27th October, 2005 at 2:07 pm  

    Oh, its all happening here, isn’t it?

    Last week, this site was invaded by BNP agent provocateurs with their racist filth. This week its is full of supporters of Galloway’s party.

    Getting back to the issue: this is the problem though, isn’t it. How do you create a proper local politics to deal with poverty, racism, and violence: without these little demagogues coming in to run the show?

    What sort of cross-communal institutions actually exist from which a constructive politics can emerge?

  22. rashid — on 27th October, 2005 at 2:11 pm  

    there goes david t again ! with his snide remarks, repititive arguments and cheap political scoring .

    Yes salma exploited the cause with her own agenda, but she was addressing some of the concers,in saying asians wern’t taking greater greater funding from the caribbean. If you were to assess the funding details, and came to that conclusion, how would you put it ?

    She helped organise the march etc , she has the right intentions, but is politically misguided.

    “No solutions “- Well start thinking ! you seem to have a lot of time .

    So how would you fill a vacuum swp and mabattempting to fill.

    I’m not talking about the recent saga or the local problem , but in general. You’ve had some obsessions for sometime, you and few of your blogging mates must have some solutions.

    respect is seen as an organisations sympathetic to their cause, however opportunistic it might seem and it has honourable members with the right intentions , whom are best directing their energy towards local community groups and projects , that are non existent . As such there is a big vacuum and will be exploited for political means.

    Didn’t you use to be a SWP ‘er ?

    Carrying on with the theme that salma “has the right intentions, but is politically mis guided” or a general letter to people who want to “help” but are politically misguided and why respect is not the answer. David T – write a letter to salma to convice her to resign from respect. I’ve done that , it hasn’t worked. Thats your assignment. Number of themes to be discussed. Lets see what your made of .

  23. coruja — on 27th October, 2005 at 2:13 pm  

    This whole idea of establishing a relationship particular ‘community leaders’ is an old Labour ploy of ensuring block votes from us minorities for the chosen Labour candidate.

    This may be now outdated and irrelevant. It may have been useful long ago when these communities were new and one or two people who could articulate their immediate needs and grievances on their behalf.

    Things have moved on, but these people are still represented as a block, as if all the new aspirations and hopes of second and third generation British ‘Asians’ can be so simply represented.

    And we forever condemned to be represented by these ‘community leaders’ who have no real political clout, who just go to their respective master’s house to deliver the bag of votes on demand?

    The bottleneck caused by these community leaders, with their lack of real political ambition, is not allowing younger generations access to mainstream politics.

    And it is also time that the major political parties treated us as individual as their other constituents, this whole ‘black/asian vote’ myth really needs to be removed if we are to rid ourselves of our ‘representatives’.

  24. David T — on 27th October, 2005 at 2:28 pm  

    rashid

    “cheap political scoring” – well its an open goal, isn’t it?

    Have I written to Yaqoob? No, of course not. Why would she listen to me. Frankly, I’m delighted to see her brand of Muslim Brotherhood’s nasty racist intolerant communalist politics yoked to the lunatic SWP and George “I’m not corrupt” Galloway.

    My guess is that the Muslim Brotherhood will be the first to pull out of RESPECT. And then it will go back to the sort of low scale, community-consciousness, inward looking politics that it has traditionally practiced.

    They won’t improve the lives of muslim asian people. But with any luck, they’ll fail in the United Kingdom .

    Didn’t you use to be a SWP ‘er ?

    Why would I want to do something as stupid as that?

    Coruja

    I think that what we are seeing already. Pickled Politics, and most of the comments you get here is a symptom of the move away from communal based politics.

    But when the days of “make a deal with the community leader” have passed, as they will, there will still be problems of poverty and racism, and that really does need an alternative, realistic local politics which addresses the things which matter most to people: employment, crime, combatting povery, and so on.

  25. John Christopher — on 27th October, 2005 at 2:40 pm  

    David T wrote:

    Were you on the demonstration in Birmingham?

    No I wasn’t. At the time, I was shopping in Dalston, East London, with my (black) wife, when some dude in a tea cosy and a airhorn thrust a piece of paper at us with the words “Ligali” printed all over it. That was the first time I learned of the allegation of serial rape made against members of the Asian business community. Now here is the good news. It seems the good people of Dalston are alot more sophisticated than our northern brother’s and sister’s. All around Dalston market there was much talk but little belief that this incident actually took place. Ligali’s news-sheet was SO thin on FACTS it was laughable. Now for the BAD news. By the time I got back home later that night, Lozells was already burning.

    One other thing Mr T before I leave. Say what you will about “Respect” as a political force and individuals such as Salma Yaqoob, Dr. Mohammad Naseem and Yvonne Ridley but you had bettter have balls of brass if you think you can go up against the likes of George Galloway. No one comes close to challenging his advocacy against this illegal war in Iraq. Period! Mr Galloway enjoys MASSIVE support both in this country and abroad for the brave stance he has taken against Blair and Bush’s warcrime. I along with many other’s didn’t vote Respect in the last election but I’ll be damned before I don’t show respect to the one man who has managed to put a smile on my face, irrespective of the slings and arrows which have been thrown his way. He went to the US senate and kicked arse. So my question for you, David T, what have you done lately?

  26. rashid — on 27th October, 2005 at 2:46 pm  

    questions , questions, We know what they are david ! now answers please. pretty pleae

    - I’m not asking you to write a letter to her . post it here . then maybe sunny can get a petition going.

    David T ‘s assignments :

    1) Letter to likes of salma why respect is not the answer .

    2 ) How do you create a proper local politics to deal with poverty, racism, and violence: without these little demagogues coming in to run the show? -

    3) What sort of cross-communal institutions actually exist from which a constructive politics can emerge?

    4) How relationship between ‘community leaders’ and old Labour have hindered and alianated muslims. How to educate them politically and remove communalist mindset imprinted by old labour.

    and More questions i’m sure . .

    Dear “liberal” media monitorers, maybe after pointing out the unfortunate circumstances muslims are in , stop to think and encourage intellectual debate. Leading a discussion from problems, to causes and solutions.

    regarding the whole concept of the “community leader”, it would be unfortunate if the likes of mab replace it , and i fear thats the direction its going . How did the jewish community get past this stage david ?

  27. David T — on 27th October, 2005 at 2:52 pm  

    The things that I haven’t done lately include

    - personally soliciting and being granted eight oil allocations totaling 23 million barrels from Saddam Hussein’s government from 1999 through 2003, subverting the Oil for Food programme which was supposed to be providing food and medical supplies for children living in a murderous dictatorship

    - setting up a charity based around a child in Iraq with cancer living in a murderous dictatorship, which received at least $446,000 under the Oil-for-Food Program, and then pissing the money away on a propaganda bus trip to Baghdad

    - saluting a murderous dictator on TV, and praising his “indefatigability”

    - setting up a political party which constituted an alliance between one group of lunatics who want to hold a worldwide violent revolution, and another group of lunatics who want to establish a Caliphate under which any muslim who lapses from his faith gets executed for apostasy, funded by a man who thinks that the London Bombings were a conspiracy theory and that gays ought to be executed

    Neither, I should add, has my wife received approximately $150,000 in connection with one allocation of oil.

    I think I’ve done pretty well not to do any of these things.

    The other thing I haven’t done is ” show respect to the one man who has managed to put a smile on my face”

    But, hey, choose any hero you want.

  28. Nyrone — on 27th October, 2005 at 2:55 pm  

    Agrees with John Christopher. Lay off Galloway, I think he’s a tremendous example of someone fighting for justice, regardless of the mafia-like gangs trying to silence him into obscurity.

    My guess is that the Muslim Brotherhood will be the first to pull out of RESPECT. And then it will go back to the sort of low scale, community-consciousness, inward looking politics that it has traditionally practiced.
    They won’t improve the lives of muslim asian people. But with any luck, they’ll fail in the United Kingdom .

    Why such negativity? Why are you so desperate for this party to fail? A party that has been fighting for our civil liberties unlike any other? What alternative can you suggest? It’s easy to sit in your cafe spewing negativity, It’s more difficult to be constructive and provide soloutions.

    Sit down and read or talk to the members of Respect (they are actually accesible) before declaring war against their ideologies.

    and David T, how can you honestly contrast the BNP thread with people sensibly supporting the rep of a political party like Respect? That’s a lazy semblance.

  29. John Christopher — on 27th October, 2005 at 2:57 pm  

    Amir wrote:

    1. THE INSTIGATORS – Jealous business rivals & other individuals.
    2. THE INCITORS – Gullible demonstrators with obvious prejudices, racist extremist websites, DJ’s & radio stations, incidentally in Rwanda and estimated 800,000 people were massacred and a lot of this violence was incited over the radio.
    3. THE PERPETUATORS – Criminal gangs whose sole intent was to steal, loot and physically assault as many from another race as possible.

    Can I add one last group to the above list.

    4. THE MURDERERS-The 11 “asian” men who murdered for no good reason a totally innocent black man on his way back home from the cinema.

    Please keep in mind Amir that there are looney tunes in all walks of life, even yours.

  30. David T — on 27th October, 2005 at 2:58 pm  

    Rashid:

    regarding the whole concept of the “community leader”, it would be unfortunate if the likes of mab replace it

    I very much doubt it.

    and i fear thats the direction its going . How did the jewish community get past this stage david ?

    Pretty much the same way that the British Hugenot community got past that stage.

    There were riots against Hugenot in the 16th century in Bethnal Green and Bow. They were accused of “taking our women, sponging off charity, taking our jobs with their fancy new looms”. Queen Elizabeth I dealt with it by having the protestors executed.

    A few centuries on, and we get… Simon Le Bon!

  31. David T — on 27th October, 2005 at 3:03 pm  

    Lay off Galloway, I think he’s a tremendous example of someone fighting for justice…

    Oh do you really? What a surprise

    He’s a tremendous example of something, certainly.

    Why are you so desperate for this party to fail?

    Well, I’m just telling you what I think will happen. And what I think will happen is

    - the Muslim Brotherhood will finally completely pull out of the RESPECT project
    - those in the SWP who don’t want to compromise with what they see as the “bourgeois” politics of the Muslim Brotherhood will go their own way too.

    I don’t think Galloway – who brought the unlikely couple together – is going to be that much of a figurehead in future, either.

  32. David T — on 27th October, 2005 at 3:09 pm  

    how can you honestly contrast the BNP thread with people sensibly supporting the rep of a political party like Respect? That’s a lazy semblance

    Well, it isn’t easy to tell the difference between the two, is it?

    RESPECT is funded by a man who calls for the execution of gays. The BNP is a bit more moderate than that…

    Galloway has put together a petition in support his old mate, Tariq Aziz. And he has got a bunch of French Fascists to sign the petition. Yup. He’s actually running a joint campaign with people who are the political equivalent of the BNP in France!

    Not that the petition did Galloway any good: because Aziz seems to have dumped him in it.

    This isn’t a “lazy semblance”: it is a close parallel.

  33. John Christopher — on 27th October, 2005 at 3:10 pm  

    David T wrote:

    “The things that I haven’t done lately include
    - personally soliciting and being granted eight oil allocations totaling 23 million barrels from Saddam Hussein’s government from 1999 through 2003, subverting the Oil for Food programme which was supposed to be providing food and medical supplies for children living in a murderous dictatorship
    - setting up a charity based around a child in Iraq with cancer living in a murderous dictatorship, which received at least $446,000 under the Oil-for-Food Program, and then pissing the money away on a propaganda bus trip to Baghdad……”

    Anyone found the weapons of mass destruction….yet?

    So many words with so little proof (to back them up). Just like your friends at Ligali. If you, the Daily Telegraph and the US Senate have got anything on George Galloway then it put up! Otherwise, shut the fxxk up. I don’t who who you are or who you represent, David but I’d rather have George Galloway as my personal hero than Condolezza Rice.

  34. David T — on 27th October, 2005 at 3:10 pm  

    Yes, yes, I know, this is mudslinging at a great hero of the left, a wonderful man, who is kind to animals etc….

    Can we get back to the actual discussion now?

  35. David T — on 27th October, 2005 at 3:12 pm  

    Yeah, John Christopher. But Condolezza Rice isn’t my personal hero. In fact, I voted Democrat in the last elections…

    Galloway seems to be top man with you, though.

  36. fresh — on 27th October, 2005 at 3:25 pm  

    David T, I am very interested in your comments about Muslim Brotherhood being ‘affiliated’ in some way to Respect.

    I am also interested in knowing your stand on the general issues such as the Iraq war.

    Given that none of the other parties (with the exception of the Liberals) actually opposed the war, where do the huge opposition to the war and all that flows from it and will flow from it go.

    I suspect, unwittingly, you are closer to asking for communal politics than Salma Yaqoob.

    Oh boy having a go at George Galloway, with another smear based on the oil for food programme funding Respect comes much better out of the re-arranged mouth of that hapless chairman of that US Senate committee.

    I know elsewhere on this site the issue of representation for Asians came up, and I think it was Sunny suggested that rather than leave the Labour Party, people should stay and push for change from within. It was linked in with ‘community leaders’ delivering the asian vote or somesuch.

    So I am beginning to wonder what progressive means in your world.

    When the future has got to be in the hands of the leadership emerging from their communities and not groomed as they are in New Labour.

  37. Rohin — on 27th October, 2005 at 3:30 pm  

    Good grief, where did all these Galloway-supporters come from?

    I’m an uneducated fool who doesn’t know much about anything. But isn’t it possible to share my opinion on the GREAT GALLOWAY? Which is…

    I loved it when Galloway stuck two fingers up at the mighty tosspot Bliar (that actually was a typo, not a deliberate attempt at leftist chic, but I’ll leave it in) but I can also see that Galloway is a tremendously flawed man.

    He cynically courted the Muslim vote for his own ends and spends less time in the Commons than anyone. It was important that his single-issue party received coverage – it embodied the nation’s (and particularly the East End’s) intense upset with the war. But come on guys, let’s not canonise him. As David T points out – he’s a corrupt and selfish man. So what if weapons haven’t been found? That doesn’t exonerate Galloway (I’ll never get tired of watching the footage of him with Saddam – who, lest we forget, was a known dictator and murderer at the time), it simply shows the war was illegal.

    Galloway is a spanner. I enjoyed watching Labour take a drubbing there and he’s actually been supportive of my mates at Barts and the London medical school when they’ve had trouble from Queen Mary (Kings of shit). Well kinda. But I’m willing to believe he had good intentions. BUT he’s still a spanner. A corrupt spanner and not a pleasant man. Someone in cahoots with extremists is no person to have as your hero.

  38. David T — on 27th October, 2005 at 3:38 pm  

    I refer you to Harry’s Place for an answer to all your questions. Feel free to join in the debate there.

    Politics in big, mainstream political parties tends to evolve in a fairly fluid and unideological way: because they are broadly kept in line by the need to win elections. People vote at elections on all the issues which worry them.

    You’re right: there was a significant minority of people who felt very strongly about the war. At most, nationally, it shifted the vote about 6% from Labour to LibDem. Does that answer your question?

    Occasionally, you get blips. The BNP make a little push in one part of East London, and RESPECT make a little push in Birmingham and another part of East London…

  39. David T — on 27th October, 2005 at 3:41 pm  

    Sorry for fighting on your blog Rohin.

    I’ll try to shut up now…

  40. Rohin — on 27th October, 2005 at 3:51 pm  

    No need to shut up David, or anyone else on this thread – this fight is perfectly civil for the most part. Fighting is good, as long as rules are adhered to.

  41. John Christopher — on 27th October, 2005 at 3:52 pm  

    Rohin wrote:

    “I loved it when Galloway stuck two fingers up at the mighty tosspot Bliar (that actually was a typo, not a deliberate attempt at leftist chic, but I’ll leave it in) but I can also see that Galloway is a tremendously flawed man.”

    I couldn’t agree with you more. This is quite opposite from the view taken by David T. By the way David, I voted Liberal Democrat in the last election and yes I’m not ashamed to say it. I hate Condolezza Rice!

    David, if you want to move back to the subject at hand, how the streets of Birmingham got turned into a warzone between black and asian gangs, that’s great, I’m down with that. But let’s all stick to the facts and resist the temptation of peddling falsehoods of one type or the other. If you or anyone else can PROVE the exisitence of Weapons of Mass Destruction, or the crime of a 18 year old black being raped by 18 Asian businessmen or George Galloway ripping off the Oil for Food then I will stand aside and stand corrected. ALL I ASK FOR IS PROOF!

  42. fresh — on 27th October, 2005 at 3:52 pm  

    Rohin, I suspect you are lot more educated than your modesty allows you portray.

    The issue is very very simple, at times of crisis we need all the resources we can get to pull people together. Especially across divides.

    If you can and anyone else can pull people together and demonstrate some unity then I would support you.

    If Salma Yaqoob and others (whose names we do not know) have been able to do something, then that’s to the good.

    David T is much more interested in casting aspersions about Respect.

    As for your own contribution on Galloway being corrupt – you have no evidence and it is not good practise to deal in allegations and hearsay, surely that was the lesson from this whole sorry saga.

  43. Rohin — on 27th October, 2005 at 4:01 pm  

    Fresh, modesty and my name have never appeared in a sentence together (unless it’s saying what I’m NOT), so thank you for that!

    Yes I agree with you John, the matter in hand is still Birmingham, let’s not get too distracted by Respect and Georgie. Fresh you have a point, I personally have no proof that Galloway is corrupt, but then I say “Indian politicians are corrupt” with no proof that they all are. I’m just impulsive like that. Lucky I’m not a lawyer. Or maybe it’s BECAUSE I’m not a lawyer that I make these assertions. Sometimes I just go with my gut feeling. As David says, Harry’s Place has spent a lot of time compiling the case against Galloway. Sometimes I think they’re a bit over-the-top…bordering on becoming a one-issue blog about a one issue man (I kid, I kid!)

    I just re-read Sunny’s piece properly, it is a very strong piece of writing and I wholly agree with what he says. Indeed during the fracas on here at the weekend, I did actually say that I wouldn’t trust any Asian media outlets, as they would be either overly politically correct or biased. That’s why I think this was a very called-for article Sunny.

  44. David T — on 27th October, 2005 at 4:03 pm  

    Opposing something doesn’t mean that you line up with all its opponents.

    Saddam Hussein opposed the war which deposed him. This doesn’t mean that you should support him: although, of course, Galloway did.

    Similarly, you might oppose the continued presence of coalition troops in Iraq. But that doesn’t mean that you need to support the Baathists and Jihadists: as the SWP leadership in the Stop the War Coalition did (although they now deny having circulated the statement in question).

    Of course, if you are a RESPECT member or supporter, then you should. It is your party, after all, and somebody has to support it.

  45. Amir — on 27th October, 2005 at 4:08 pm  

    My walk of life?????…….. what has the murder got to do with me?

    You dont own a pirate radio station by any chance do you?

    Lest do a little experiment …..why dont you take a walk down Lozells and lets see who shoots you first? Then come back and lets tlak about walks of life!

  46. fresh — on 27th October, 2005 at 4:16 pm  

    Rohin, perhaps you should be a lawyer or get one. Its important.

    David T, not sure what to say to you – but you are right on this point – no one should follow anyone blindly.

  47. Rohin — on 27th October, 2005 at 4:28 pm  

    Perhaps I should get a lawyer fresh. It’s just 99% give the rest a bad name. Know any pro-bono non-money-grabbing lawyers out there willing to help out a student who will frequently say libellous things? All my law-graduate friends have quit law!

  48. fresh — on 27th October, 2005 at 4:36 pm  

    Probably cheaper to adapt to a non-libellous lifestyle, definitely gives you a hand-up on to that high horse.

  49. Rohin — on 27th October, 2005 at 4:52 pm  

    Bah, high horses are overrated. I can’t see myself ever abandoning slander and libel. Well until the time the BBC and CNN fight over employing me as science correspondent. Then I’ll behave. Until that time, NEVER!

  50. fresh — on 27th October, 2005 at 4:57 pm  

    Fair enough! Until then.

    As for the article by Sunny – it had me thinking. He was demanding to know why certain people weren’t present on the Unity march. It occurred to me that it was an all woman march.

    And secondly if we get men in there – they’ll do the usual manly things and mess it all up.

    I would say that it should stay with the women – they don’t usually riot do they?

  51. Col. Mustafa — on 27th October, 2005 at 7:05 pm  

    People are dying everyday, i cant be arsed to acknowledge them.
    People are being everyday too, same applies.

    Seeing as though i am asian and i visit an asian site, on the rare occasion i will acknowledge whatevers being written by others that have bothered to acknowledge it first.

    But tbh i hear muslims dying everyday, muslims being the people im supposed to relate to.
    Do i show my outrage at that……no.
    Why? Because i dont really care, got enough probs as it is.
    The reason why this particular asian was not outraged by the murders of the 2 innocent black guys is the same as why im not outraged by the thousands of others that got murdered as well.

  52. shihab — on 27th October, 2005 at 7:29 pm  

    A philosophy otherwise summed up as, who cares?

    Can’t be bovvered.

    Ah to be a teenager again.

  53. Col. Mustafa — on 27th October, 2005 at 7:34 pm  

    hehe, how much do you care?
    What have you done with those feelings of shame, anger, or whatever about the two black youths being murdered?

    Post on a website i guess, well done.

  54. ContraryMary — on 27th October, 2005 at 8:04 pm  

    Is the lack of outrage or condemnation from the Asian community over the senseless murder of a young man down to multi-culturalism?

    Mutli-culturalism has allowed ethnic minorities to hold onto their culture, language, religion and frankly the mentality amongst so called ‘community leaders’ is as long Asian communities can retain these elements of their culture, as well as integrate to the host country, they don’t really give a flying fuck about anyone else.

    Least of all other ethnic minority communities, whether black or chinese. Can anyone give me an example of an Asian community reaching out to help any other ethnic minority community that isn’t Asian?

    It’s the I’m alright jack mentality. And beyond that even if Asian community leaders had made a stand in this case would the Asian youth have listened? Quite simply no. These so called community leaders are sooo out of touch it’s beyond belief. Their imagined reality, and the reality of day to day life are very, very different.

    The bigoted attitude of these leaders, and the majority of the first wave of Asian immigrants (including my parents and the vast majority of their friends), is embarrassing.

  55. Kulvinder — on 27th October, 2005 at 8:17 pm  

    Is the lack of outrage or condemnation from the Asian community over the senseless murder of a young man down to multi-culturalism?

    what?

  56. ContraryMary — on 27th October, 2005 at 8:30 pm  

    Kulvinder the point I’m trying to make is that the concept of multiculturalism has lead to a mindset of protecting one’s own culture/ethnicity, whilst simultaneously integrating into the host country.

    Is it beyond the realms of possibility that this in turn results in an attitude amongst ethnic minorities, particularly community leaders and elders, that as long as they are protecting or furthering their own culture and succeeding in the host country, they don’t actually care about other ethnic minorities?

    Why has no one spoken out? Because it reflects badly on the Asian community, and nobody wants to be seen to be putting the boot in on the Asian community. Least of all somebody from within these communities.

    As sunny points out if this situation/murder had been reversed all hell would have broken loose. just because the shoe is on the other foot, a blind eye is being turned.

  57. Col. Mustafa — on 27th October, 2005 at 8:56 pm  

    I remember a pakistani girl got raped by a black guy while she was on her way home from work.
    Not too long ago as there was a thread about this, also i live in the area it happened.
    I dont remeber me wanting to beat up all the black guys, or any other of the asians around that area.
    There was no protest, nor an outrage of any sort from anywhere.
    Thats just one incident that by following your thinking should of i suppose turned into WW3.
    But guess what it didn’t, theres also thousands of cases like that.

    So when you speak of the asian community as a whole, it would be better if you didn’t generalise contrary.

  58. Col. Mustafa — on 27th October, 2005 at 9:01 pm  

    I dont remember any black guys or girls apologising for it either.
    You know why, because its not thier fault.

  59. Col. Mustafa — on 27th October, 2005 at 9:03 pm  

    No outrage, or feelings of remorse from the black community as you so love to say, but i wasn’t expecting any either.
    Why should i be?

  60. shihab — on 27th October, 2005 at 9:30 pm  

    I’m outraged!

    (I can sleep easier knowing I’ve done my bit now. oh the thrills of knowing I’ve done my bit to make the world a lovelier place)

  61. Vladimir — on 27th October, 2005 at 10:02 pm  

    It might have been already said in the 60 messages prior to this but all I got to say is f*ck the community leaders. Its not about them its about us as humans of different ethnicities supporting each other and condemning such incidents when they happen as a collective group of people no matter what colour, race or religion we are. Though it must be said it is unfortunate that there has been little media attention paid to this actual incident.

    It is quite a sad reality of today’s world that there are humans that are prepared to attack another human in such a manner.

  62. ContraryMary — on 27th October, 2005 at 10:02 pm  

    Col. in this instance tensions had built for a week. battle lines had been drawn in colour terms – black and brown.

    so when it spilt over into murder is there not a duty for both sides to condemn the violence and stoking of tensions? all I can hear is silence.

    agreed, I shouldn’t generalise, but how do we address issues specific to groups of people, whether ethnic groups or otherwise?

    we’re more than happy to take the plaudits for the British Asian success story and so called ‘Asian cool’ but if it’s anything negative such as ‘honour killings’ or the case of the young women who committed suicide and took the lives of her two young children at southall station, we get defensive and prickly.

    what do you think the response should have been to the murder? would it be the same response if it was a religious, humble young asian man on his way back from the cinema who basically got lynched by a mob?

  63. The Dude — on 27th October, 2005 at 11:28 pm  

    I think everybody is missing the point. Forget the “alleged rape” for a moment (personally I think the whole thing was a made up story) and concentrate on it’s aftermath, keeping in mind all the time that TWO innocent people were murdered as a direct consequence of the said tale. Ask the questions. What was the hidden agenda that lied behind the original lie? Who gained to benefit from Asian businesses burning down to the ground and a black consumer boycott of anything left standing?

  64. Sunny — on 27th October, 2005 at 11:51 pm  

    I’m so glad the conversation went back from discussing Galloway and Respect party to the issue at hand.

    But just to state my views on the subject – we give far too much credit to GG. Opportunistic he clearly is, and do nothing for the Bow and Tower Hamlets community he will. Yes he kicked ass against the senate but he’s full of hot air. The real heroes are those who do the work on the street, not those who scream and shout and still do nothing.

    Corrupt or not, I think time will ultimately show GG to be fairly useless. Salma Yaqoob, who looks idealistic and naive, may one day realise that. Until then she is affiliated with two highly useless and backward-looking institutions. Agenda or not, she has pretty much been the only Asian voice of sanity in this rioting.

    And big up to the women in general for the peaceful march.

    My plan is to now escalate this “outrage”. It may not matter to some, but this is about:
    1) Asking why the sitution in B’ham was so badly handled by the police.
    2) Admit the Asians have had a part to play in the violence.
    3) Declare solidarity with those who have lost lives and say that we are united in our grief.

    We need to mend fences and start talking. Blaming each other gets us nowhere. Maybe the funding of businesses needs to be looked at more openly. These are discussions that need to be had.

  65. douglas — on 28th October, 2005 at 12:09 am  

    The Dude,

    I hesitate to post this, I haven’t checked the news today, but the main worry here is that there appears to have been no ‘incident’, of the graphic nature that became a lie running half way around the world before truth got out of bed. If people will kill for rumour what hope is there? I fully expect to see conspiracy theories of every lurid colour imaginable. That the police suppressed evidence, that the victim was spirited away, etc, etc. This has all the makings of a deliberate attempt by evil people to sour community relations, and sadly it seems to have suceeded.

    Incidentaly, this has been a civilised and good natured thread. As is the one immediately below it. I’ll stay away from here at the weekends then? :)

    douglas

  66. shazia — on 28th October, 2005 at 2:27 am  

    Where is the Asian outrage over a racist murder?
    we remain silent because we can only ever be seen as victims.
    the sympathy package is the only one we like wearing.
    offending has nothing to do with us, it’s the work of our youth who are drugged by whites or provoked by blacks.

    the rest of us are stupid enough to be reliant or expecting from local leaders – and that’s our biggest mistake. they are not the only ones with voices.

  67. Kulvinder — on 28th October, 2005 at 2:59 am  

    Kulvinder the point I’m trying to make is that the concept of multiculturalism has lead to a mindset of protecting one’s own culture/ethnicity, whilst simultaneously integrating into the host country.

    Is it beyond the realms of possibility that this in turn results in an attitude amongst ethnic minorities, particularly community leaders and elders, that as long as they are protecting or furthering their own culture and succeeding in the host country, they don’t actually care about other ethnic minorities?

    Thats two different arguments. The laughable nature of ‘community leaders’ has been raised by almost everyone in this topic, it is quite possible that they wish to ‘protect’ or ‘safe face’ from any criticism.

    Vaguely bringing in the issue of multi-culturalism is seperate to that, this very thread and the responces within it from ‘black’ and ‘brown’ posters would be testament that not everyone is out to protect their own. You’re indicating that cultural identity (from any side presumably) has prevented people from speaking out in condemnation, in a thread, on a blog in which people from both the afro-carribean and asian community have spoken out in condemnation.

    Aside from that i do not consider myself in any way to be ‘hosted’ in the United Kingdom.

    I am British.

    The culture that a people of any given nation wish to preserve is done so in law. It sets out how people have to live, it is the foundation, the intrinsic and the only definable ‘native culture’ of any country.

  68. BNP-member — on 28th October, 2005 at 8:30 am  

    both asian and blacks just proved to us Brits that you’r not capable of living in a civilllised country. you both demanded respect and acepptance of us Brits over the years, do you think we’r going to give it now?

  69. BNP-member — on 28th October, 2005 at 8:32 am  

    you both comitted murder for no reason whatsoever, but unfortunaly this time you cant say “Brits do it too” because we dont.

  70. kmt — on 28th October, 2005 at 9:06 am  

    comment made by BNP-member:
    “you both comitted murder for no reason whatsoever, but unfortunaly this time you cant say “Brits do it too” because we dont. ”

    Right. And I guess an axe magically embedded itsself in Anthony Walker’s head. I have no problem with people like you joining the discussion, but please refrain yourself from ridiculous arguments/statements(i.e “whites don’t commit murder”) and making a fool of your “British” self.

  71. leon — on 28th October, 2005 at 10:35 am  

    “We need to mend fences and start talking. Blaming each other gets us nowhere. Maybe the funding of businesses needs to be looked at more openly. These are discussions that need to be had.”

    Aint that the truth.

  72. Laban Tall — on 28th October, 2005 at 10:56 am  

    Excellent post Sunny. The only thing I’d add is that there isn’t outrage among white people either – critically among the educated class who control our media.

    Sadly, they only get outraged by a racist murder if a white person commits it.

    Anthony Walker;s funeral was shown live on BBC News 24 and got blanket coverage on all channels. The BBC explained it was because of ‘the racial element’.

    Yet Isiah’s murder, like that of Christopher Yates, somehow doesn’t qualify him for the full media outrage treatment .

    I admit to having an agenda here. I don’t like ANY murders, racist ones included, and I do wish the media would stop using selected murders to illustrate their little morality plays. Until that stops I guess I’ll have to keep posting about it (using selected murders to isslustrate MY morality plays).

  73. leon — on 28th October, 2005 at 11:24 am  

    A few others have made a statement: http://www.obv.org.uk/reports/statement-20051027.htm

  74. The Dude — on 28th October, 2005 at 12:28 pm  

    I never thought I’d see the day when a BNP member could make an active contribution to an debate and sound sensible. The sad fact remains though, WE ARE ALL CAPABLE OF COMMITTING MURDER.

    Kulvinder is right about the role that so-called community leaders have played in the UK’s Race Industry. Since the death of Clinton McCurbin (literally at the hands of the West Mids police) 20 years ago in Wolverhampton, I’ve watched a steady succession of self appointed poppingjays awarding themselves the title of “Community Spokesman”, “Community Leader” and “Champion of the People” with absolutely NO mandate from the people they are supposed to represent. Worse still in most cases, when push came to shove, these “Champions” would without hestitation sell out the interest of their own people in deference to that of the HOST community (their real pay-masters).

    It wasn’t until I came back from South Africa that I realised just how British I was and stopped running away from my true identity. I am proud of my african decent but that is completely different from saying that I am African. I am not! Alas my Britishness is something that is quite different from the stereotype, something of which our friends from the BNP would have a hard time dealing with but deal with it they MUST along with a fair number from our own Black and Brown communities. I am part of a New England. I have no intention of living in the box imposed either by my race or culture. I can’t speak for Kulvinder but (He/She) doesn’t seem the kind of person who wants to remain in a box as well. We are small but everyday we are growing in number.

    Finally I offer a solution. We need to extend the democratic political process to include Community Representation. In short, we need the vote. More than this, we need to fund the offices of our Community Representatives (from our own resources) so that they answer to US and not to THEM. Our community leaders must play the piper and we must call the tune and they must never be allowed to speak on behalf of others without a mandate. The fact that this tread as had so many good contributions from such a diverse catchment (including our friends from the NF) speaks volumes.

  75. The Dude — on 28th October, 2005 at 12:42 pm  

    Sunny wrote:

    My plan is to now escalate this “outrage”. It may not matter to some, but this is about:
    1) Asking why the sitution in B’ham was so badly handled by the police.

    You’re dead wrong! On this occasion the West Midlands Police have done NOTHING wrong and EVRYTHING RIGHT! They fully investigated the original allegation and found nothing. Now I’m not saying that the Police are not capable of a cover-up but they along with DJ Warren G and Ligali would make strange bed fellows in stopping the truth coming to the fore. Mind you…..nothing is impossible in this day and age. Until I’m proved otherwise I’ll give credit, where credit is due and on this one, credit is due to the Police.

  76. whatever! — on 28th October, 2005 at 12:57 pm  

    Anyway

    The article is a kick in the face about racist media.

    Black life is worthless, no mention of the 11 gang of Pakistanis commiting this animilastic act.

    but what the media says it is not important, what is more important is that Black people realise who the real enemy is…………WHITE

    nevertheless, me I prefer Pakistani over Indian, Pakistani went through hell and back and history they have been slaughtered by the Indians, so they might understand things a bit better.

  77. Sunny — on 28th October, 2005 at 1:22 pm  

    Hi Laban, I agree with your viewpoint too, but unfortunately that happens in any majority-minority culture (unless there is intense paranoia of the minority). In India sometimes the killing of Hindus by Muslims (in Bangladesh for e.g.) is overlooked by the politicians who are too busy grinding their own agendas. Only the far-right Hindu nationalists make a big deal because they live in that paranoid world, and therefore put the liberals on the defensive, who don’t want to be seen as sitting along the VHP.

    In such a case, I believe it is important for the minority community itself to stand-up and say what is right. My belief is Asians still feel defensive and not empowered enough to say anything… but as you can see not all of us are like that.

    The Dude:
    Finally I offer a solution. We need to extend the democratic political process to include Community Representation. In short, we need the vote

    You’re totally right, but there are two problems here:
    1) Within the Asian community a lot of the “leaders” are head of religious institutions, and demanding more transparency there is like drawing blood from stone.

    2) I think leadership should be, in this case, local MPs, since we do elect them. Having leaders on religious and racial grounds is a dangerous game to play because those people then find it in their interest to keep people segregated.

  78. BNP-member — on 28th October, 2005 at 1:42 pm  

    First the dude you must be one confused dude, because you may see yuorself as British WE certainly dont. not unless you turn into a ANGLO-SAXON overnight and I doubt that will ever happen.
    second, like i said before. asian and blacks cant live together, its proven fact now. not unless both of you return to your countries riots will never stop.
    that’s why the BNP is here to help and assist you to leave

  79. Sunny — on 28th October, 2005 at 1:57 pm  

    First the dude you must be one confused dude, because you may see yuorself as British WE certainly dont.

    So? Does it look like we care what you think? I may think you’re an inbred donkey who worships satan, but that may not necessarily be true. Though going by your comments it is highly likely.

    like i said before. asian and blacks cant live together, its proven fact now. not unless both of you return to your countries riots will never stop.
    that’s why the BNP is here to help and assist you to leave

    hahahahaha!!! shut up.

  80. african-princess — on 28th October, 2005 at 2:06 pm  

    WOW BNP-member, you’re going to help us move are you? And forget the fact that you build your stinking country on our backs, are you? Wow can’t wait, I bet we’re going to end up in a nice, old camp somewhere in a place called “buchenwald” or some other cute German name, and we eventually get a nice shower to end our day with. Can’t wait to hop on the BNP-train!

  81. The Dude — on 28th October, 2005 at 2:38 pm  

    Let me repeat:

    Alas my Britishness is something that is quite different from the stereotype, something of which our friends from the BNP would have a hard time dealing with but deal with it they MUST along with a fair number from our own Black and Brown communities.

    The point made by the BNP member (please accept my deepest apology for calling you NF), illustrate my point exactly. For them, Britishness is the Union Jack, Meat and Two Veg, poor sex and not being able to hold their drink. For it’s that (except for the sex) and a whole heap MORE! Earlier the BNP member mentioned tha what happened in Birmingham couldn’t be laid at the door of the racist and he was right! White people had little to no involvement in the publication and dissemination of the original lie. They had even less involvement in the two murders which followed. Our BNP friend asserts that the two communities (Black and Brown) cannot live side, by side in peace. On the evidence of what happened last Saturday, again he is right. When I used to live in Telford I had a friend who was a self-confessed out and out racist. We would spend hours arguing the toss about everything. Sometimes my friend would stop me dead in my tracks by making an observation about my community which was 100% true. The fact that this truth came from a racist should in no way dilute the integrity of the truth itself. The truth is the truth….PERIOD! I beg everyone on this forum to have the maturity in allowing the BNP and others to have their say. Even if you don’t agree with them, we should all have the good sense to listen to them. I think their contributions to this tread is nothing short of amazing given what this site and forum is all about.

  82. whatever! — on 28th October, 2005 at 2:46 pm  

    funny how after the Birtish looted most countries, in the world, colonized and looted more, bought slaves to build the country…

    and now they want us to leave!

    okay then , we will leave after two conditions

    1) return everyhting looted, including the Queens jewels , it belongs to India

    2)get out of South Africa and other countries

    see, now do you understand how absurd you sound………about leave………..nopes unfortunaltly you will see my brown face untill you die.

  83. Kulvinder — on 28th October, 2005 at 2:51 pm  

    Incidently, BNP member how do you differentiate the ‘anglo-saxon’ people of Britain from the Romano/Celtic population that came before them, and indeed those who arrived with the Norman conquest of Britiain?

    Im obviously not going to change your opinion on anything, so im not going to try. But i am curious why ‘anglo-saxons’ are lauded above all others. Its an incredibly strange choice, it neglects the aborigonal celtic native britains that ‘came first’. It utterly ignores the two greatest and most succesful invasion influences both before and after the ‘anglo-saxons’ (the Romans and Normans) and it celebrates a time during which not much actually happened (relative to the time before and after the ‘anglo-saxons’)

    The dude, im very much male, aside from the occasional panty wearing. But as Homer Simpson said, its only occasionally for comfort.

  84. african-princess — on 28th October, 2005 at 2:53 pm  

    It’s people like BNP-member that makes me resent the fact that Europeans are welcomed and accped in my country.

  85. The Dude — on 28th October, 2005 at 3:08 pm  

    Sunny wrote:

    You’re totally right, but there are two problems here:
    1) Within the Asian community a lot of the “leaders” are head of religious institutions, and demanding more transparency there is like drawing blood from stone.
    2) I think leadership should be, in this case, local MPs, since we do elect them. Having leaders on religious and racial grounds is a dangerous game to play because those people then find it in their interest to keep people segregated.

    A. I’m Roman Catholic but I’ll be damned if I put my faith in The Pope. Think outside the box. If you can’t do it with them, do it WITHOUT them. The open corruption of the black churches has to be seen to be believed. Most of these Pastors I wouldn’t trust as far as I could throw. I know members of the BNP who have more integrity than some of these religious nutters/leaders.

    B. The same MP’s that took us to war on a false premise. Are you crazy? Those MP’s have as much blood on their hands as those of the 7/7 terrorist who strapped bombs on their backs and boarded a train bound for London. Right now we live in a One Party State (Labour, Tory, Lib Dem, they’re all the same). We need to do something to reduce their strangle hold on British Politics. We need an House of Representatives.

    Alas I only see one flaw. The curse of self-interest. The fact that black and asian people could be so easily motivated to riot based on a complete fabrication of an singular event, proves that some of the electorate both black and brown are not very bright. Stupid people do stupid things, like voting for Hitler. Our people need to be conscious.

  86. BNP-member — on 28th October, 2005 at 3:13 pm  

    anglo-saxon,celtic whatever. What i mean is THE BRITISH NATIVES. And the dude whatever definition you give to British youll never be it. and neither will you kulvinder

  87. BNP-member — on 28th October, 2005 at 3:22 pm  

    and african princess,i dont mind the africans in africa. theyr nice people and they know how to respect people. i know i’ve been there and even had a african girlfriend. the blacks and asians in here is a whole different story

  88. Sunny — on 28th October, 2005 at 3:38 pm  

    BNP member is here for comedy interest. If he/she remains civil and not throw around racist insults, then he/she can post. If not, they will be deleted and banned. It’s that simple. I don’t tolerate racism or bigotry of any kind.

  89. leon — on 28th October, 2005 at 3:40 pm  
  90. leon — on 28th October, 2005 at 3:41 pm  

    Btw good to hear you on PTV the other day, that Ligali guy sounds like he thinks he’s the next Martin Luther King!:P

  91. The Dude — on 28th October, 2005 at 3:42 pm  

    BNP member, you equate being white with being British. That’s why I suppose a white South Africans can just waltz into this country and settle down without even a by your leave.

    I’m sure this will also come as very good news to all those white eastern europeans who want to come here and settle down too.

    Either way you really don’t get it. I don’t need you approval for anything. I don’t want to be your type of British, I want to be MY type of British which, is very distinct and different from yours. But I have a warning for you. In insulating your race and your culture from social evolution, you risk killing it. The point as already been made by Kulvinder in earlier posts. Fact is, if you fail to adapt, you die. Time waits for NO man my friend and I really do think it’s time you begin to get with the program.

    One other thing. Don’t be fooled (by some on this forum) into thinking that you are the only ones with this problem. There are a fair few members of the black community who have long gone past their sell-by date and should be made extinct as a matter of course.

  92. Right — on 28th October, 2005 at 3:44 pm  

    You’ve been to Africa? Sure….With your narrow-minded views, I bet you haven’t traveled further than sheffield tramstop.

  93. Kulvinder — on 28th October, 2005 at 3:55 pm  

    anglo-saxon,celtic whatever. What i mean is THE BRITISH NATIVES. And the dude whatever definition you give to British youll never be it. and neither will you kulvinder

    Aww honey, its ok i still love you. What do you mean by British Native?

  94. The Dude — on 28th October, 2005 at 3:57 pm  

    Sunny… listen up!

    I don’t agree with what out friend from the BNP is saying BUT I will defend to the death his right to say it.

    On Tuesday I got kicked off the Ligali Forum for laying down a few home truths. Ligali said my post were and I quote:

    “….. hostile, deliberately inflammatory and markedly anti-African.” Bollocks!

    These asshole’s couldn’t deal with MY truth so they silenced me. Let’s not make the same mistake with our friends from the BNP. They are not just here for poppyshow. Their contributions enable us to see into their world as our contributions enable them to see into ours. I beg of you. Show the courage on your convictions and let them stay.

  95. Don — on 28th October, 2005 at 4:00 pm  

    What about the Jutes? I’m pretty sure there’s some Jute in my background. The Angles and the Saxons get all the bloody funding.

  96. The Dude — on 28th October, 2005 at 4:02 pm  

    Does anyone have a transcript of the PTV interview with those assholes from Ligali?

  97. Laban Tall — on 28th October, 2005 at 4:31 pm  

    “!return everyhting looted, including the Queens jewels , it belongs to India”

    Actually not so. The Koh-i-Noor (Mountain of Light) diamond belonged to the Afghans. The Sikh Empire pinched it from them when they conquered the trans-Indus part of the Punjab. The British Empire pinched it from the Sikh Empire.

    Who the Emir of Kabul pinched it from I’m not sure.

    PS – can we have our steam railways back ? ;-)

  98. kraziedude — on 28th October, 2005 at 5:01 pm  

    “Does anyone have a transcript of the PTV interview with those assholes from Ligali?”-

    Ligali has a full audio doc on their website

  99. no way — on 28th October, 2005 at 5:56 pm  

    Laban

    none of your steam railways work anyway

    I would say they posses the same efficency as the Northen Line…….

    Anyway

    since you willing to divert, the point of the matter FACT, western countries such as UK have looted many things and you cannot deny that.

    The Liver buuilding in Liverpool was built by profits from slavery ,

    so I am sorry bruv but you cannot let natives build your country and then tell us to f off……..nopes

    anyway the dutch afrikkkan in south africa, why are they still their?

    @Dude

    Ligali are assholes because you wrote posts such as * blacks are lazy and jealous*…..and you want sympathy, yet you show a soldarity with your BNP brothers.

    Jokers

  100. Col. Mustafa — on 28th October, 2005 at 6:13 pm  

    hahahahaha…

    not again.

    No more arguing, its between the bham people living in those areas.

    Twats like bnp are saying stupid things again because were making too much of a big deal out of this.

  101. sofie — on 28th October, 2005 at 6:31 pm  

    @ The dude

    I can’t believe you called what you wrote at the ligali forum the truth?? And you’re calling them assholes? I’m white, yet I thought your posts were out of order.

  102. The Dude — on 28th October, 2005 at 6:41 pm  

    No Way wrote:

    Ligali are assholes because you wrote posts such as * blacks are lazy and jealous*…..and you want sympathy, yet you show a soldarity with your BNP brothers.

    And the rest…..

    I couldn’t agree with you more, I’ve dealt with people like you ALL of my life. Then as now, my views have not changed. Self-appointed community organisations such as Ligali present the community as a whole and the black community in particular with a clear and present danger. And yes, it wasn’t the honourable member of the BNP who peddled a lie about a 18 black girl getting rape by a bunch of Asian. It was Ligali! It wasn’t the BNP who called for a boycott of Asian owned businesses as away of circumventing a little fair competition. God forbid hard work and long hours. No, that accolade goes once again to the assholes at Ligali. Ligali have as much blood on their hands as the 11 asian men who committed murder as a means of defending their faith.

  103. The Dude — on 28th October, 2005 at 6:54 pm  

    Sophie!

    This is what I actually wrote:

    “These asshole’s couldn’t deal with MY truth so they silenced me.”

    There big difference between my truth and THE TRUTH. My truth is subjective. And while we are on the matter of truth, I didn’t tell a lie which cost TWO people their lives.

    If you want me to swallow my words and eat humble pie….THEN BRING ME THE PROOF. Otherwise shut-up!

  104. sofie — on 28th October, 2005 at 6:59 pm  

    How can you say that? A rumour was enough for the America and the UK to invade Iraq!

    Infact, I remember a Black man being murdered by Asians because of a rumour that stated that he(black man) had an affair with an under-aged girl. And I bet you weren’t there to judge the whole Asian community, were you?

    You seem to point your finger at the whole Black community afwully fast, and I bet that this was not the first time you did so.

  105. sofie — on 28th October, 2005 at 7:02 pm  

    Yes, your immature arguments speaks for itsself really..

  106. The Dude — on 28th October, 2005 at 7:09 pm  

    Eukera! The light comes on……now follow your logic. Blair and Bush took us to war on a deliberate lie. This was NOT a good thing. It was a BAD THING. VERY BAD if yiu just happen to be an innocent Iraqi in the wrong place at the wrong time. Now here’s a bit of homework. Whats wrong with the following statement published by Ligali?

    “We are agreed that instead of chasing or blaming the source of rumours we must both focus on seeking truth and justice.”

    I’ll give you a clue. Tony Blair pulls this trick all the time.

  107. The Dude — on 28th October, 2005 at 7:13 pm  

    I’ve tried to access the audio feed from the Ligali site but to no avail. These people really don’t like me.

  108. Ashvin — on 28th October, 2005 at 7:29 pm  

    The dude is right. The black community deliberately lied about a rape by Asians. They’re jealous because Asians are much more succesful then blacks. Now they want to boycott us. Where they going to shop? Whatabout when they’re ill, have you ever seen a black doctor? You have Asian lawyers, doctors, business men etc etc etc etc

    Everyone, don’t be afraid to speak openly about it. In the radio show they should have asked him why the blacks are so jealous of Asians.

  109. NM — on 28th October, 2005 at 7:39 pm  

    “…..as the 11 asian men who committed murder as a means of defending their faith.”

    The Dude what exactly did you mean by “as a means of defending their faith”

  110. NM — on 28th October, 2005 at 7:56 pm  

    And Sooofresh your writing brings back good memories, sis ;)

  111. Al-Hack — on 28th October, 2005 at 8:18 pm  

    we’re going round and round in circles here – what will that achieve?

    The black community deliberately lied about a rape by Asians
    Certain organisations did, not everyone. Blaming every African is implying every Asian is responsible for the death of Isiah Young-Sam.

    And yes, it wasn’t the honourable member of the BNP who peddled a lie about a 18 black girl getting rape by a bunch of Asian.
    No but the BNP peddle plenty of other lies. Please don’t give them credit.

    .as the 11 asian men who committed murder as a means of defending their faith.
    And stop standing up for a gang of thugs.

  112. robert m — on 28th October, 2005 at 8:33 pm  

    “…..as the 11 asian men who committed murder as a means of defending their faith.”

    ?

  113. Rani — on 28th October, 2005 at 9:17 pm  

    I for one would like to add that the Asian who stated that the 11 asian men committed murder as a means of defending their faith, is in no way representing the opinion of most Asian. Most Asian condemn the murderers

  114. Scratch — on 28th October, 2005 at 9:21 pm  

    Someone before was on about Britain being built on the ill gotten proceeds of empire; it wasn’t, the “British Empire” was built on the forced labour of the British people during the industrial revolution, the beneficiaries, as ever, were the rich and the profits of empire are currently residing on Wall Street or in Zurich.

    If people are going to discriminate against other people then I suggest the rich would make a better target than whites or blacks or asians or anyone else. Colonialism is a class issue.

  115. NM — on 28th October, 2005 at 9:49 pm  

    Fact remains that British imperialism oppressed the African masses, and exploited the land. No need for me to turn into a communist to realise this

  116. Scratch — on 28th October, 2005 at 10:19 pm  

    Please yourself.

  117. The Dude — on 28th October, 2005 at 10:21 pm  

    I’m back good people. Here we go. First off, my remark about Asians defending their faith as an act of murder. To tell you the truth I don’t know what kind of mad sickness was running through the minds of those Asian men when they launched that murderous attack against a wholly innocent black man. It could have been any number of things not excluding their faith. I do know TWO things. 1. What those men did was wrong and 2. As a black man, I don’t blame or condemn all Asians for the wicked act of a few of their number.

    Dear Ashvin

    Let’s not go too overboard about the black communities jealousy of the brown. One of my best friends’ is a Consultant at the Royal Free and he is black. And I’ve got a cousin who is a QC and Silk. You don’t have to look too hard to find black professionals hard at work and plying their trade but we could do with a good few more. I don’t have any beef with them. I just don’t have time for the no-hopers who stand on the shoulders of giants then call themselves BIG!

  118. The Dude — on 28th October, 2005 at 10:26 pm  

    It seems that Little Ms Muffitt didn’t do her homework. Would anyone care to help her out. Replies please in no more than 50 words.

    Whats wrong with the following statement published by Ligali?
    “We are agreed that instead of chasing or blaming the source of rumours we must both focus on seeking truth and justice.”

  119. Kulvinder — on 29th October, 2005 at 5:53 am  

    Someone before was on about Britain being built on the ill gotten proceeds of empire; it wasn’t, the “British Empire” was built on the forced labour of the British people during the industrial revolution, the beneficiaries, as ever, were the rich and the profits of empire are currently residing on Wall Street or in Zurich.

    I agree with you (well to a point). Discussing the empire with almost everyone has become incredibly tiresome since they almost always want to either make it out to be naziesque in everything but name or prattle on about how brilliant it all actually was and how much better the world would be with it still there.

    The point id agree with you to, is the beneficiaries, as ever, were the rich and the profits of empire are currently residing on Wall Street or in Zurich the profit of empire has long dissapeared, been re-invested, multiplied or lost a thousand fold in more morally acceptable ways. Why makes you say that the money is in wall street or zurich?

  120. Scratch — on 29th October, 2005 at 8:44 am  

    I just used them as synonyms for the stock market and the banking system really.

    I ought to say that I’m no fan of the empire, I did want to point out that a ten year old Briton scraping crap from beneath a cotton loom in Manchester for sixty hours a week was no more a colonialist oppressor than some bloke floating face down through some slum in New Orleans is an agent of U.S. hegemony.

    Horribly enough, it could be argued that we are more culpable now that the loose change from our thirty seven and a half hours a week of unproductive file shuffling will buy us the product of third world sweatshop workers or Polish foundrymen, not that we can do anything about it.

  121. no way — on 29th October, 2005 at 10:28 am  

    *sighs*

    you are an angry angry youth of today,

    first

    Boycott asian places that discriminate us.

    My mother a muslim, with an acdemic record that stretches around the world, who does work for ALL communities, still gets treated like SHIT in asian shops, what shall she do? go and shop their…..doubt it.

    you are talking about GPs mate….the lowely doctors……….go to Hammersmith Hospital, go to St guy and Thomas, high calibra hospitals……..all doctors in equal proportions……….did you say Lawyers…….are you sure?

    heck I am doing a pharmacy course and in my year their are asians, africans, europeans, all over the world……….but many go beyound BOOTS, hence why you wont see the different faces…….the Africans tend to go into industries, in labs were you dont see their faces……..go to Glaxosmithkline, asians pursue community pharmacy in Boots……

    now i am not going to waffle on about who is doing what or not………but you have to realise that even though it is 2005, and you might feel the fighting of yester yester that bought you equal opportunites act is not important ……then do not get too comfortable……honestly, the battle is not over yet.

  122. tara — on 29th October, 2005 at 11:33 am  

    I guess thats why your most populair product is called “fair and lovely”, and ours “dark and lovely”. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder…let’s just leave it at that.

  123. BevanKieran — on 29th October, 2005 at 12:42 pm  

    I find Ashvin and No Way’s ethnocentrism a little disheartening.

    A study by the C.R.E recently suggested that 90% of white British don not friends from other “races”. A similar study (does anyone no-one) of african and asian britons would be useful. My guess it that No Way and Ashvin have no friends from any race.

  124. no way — on 29th October, 2005 at 1:00 pm  

    again, you are missing the point

    both ethnic groups do not need to marry, be friends or what not.

    we can both have seperate lives without being dis-respected.

    Actually the CRE report are bollocks you will find blacks AND whites as friends rather than asian.
    Asian are so wrapped up in their racist caste system, s *superstar status look-i -own-a-shop syndrome*, and we are white skinned that they are unbearable to make friends with.

    funny thing this is just a new generation thing, my parents (well actually ony mum) are much more tolerant of other ethnics. My sister is married to a white person………………..is racism erased……….never

    it will take more than *lets be friends*

    I remember at secondaryI had one Punjabe friend and a white friend, I remember coming back to secondary school after weekend and found that the white friend got invited to the asian wedding, now i left as that, but i remember the white friend told me in secrst that i wasn not invited to the wedding becuase her parenst will disapprove of her having a *darkie*

    well let me tell you something, i dropped her friendship in a split second , and she was not allowed to COPY my homework ever again. Unfortunalty i was in a private school with majority whites, so i waited untill i passed and made friends off my own ethnicity.

    Simple as

  125. BevanKieran — on 29th October, 2005 at 1:35 pm  

    No Way

    I went to a third-rate public where I was the only person of an ethnic minority in the year. I fear that the similar racism you would have suffered has left you rather embittered.

    Whilst I would not doubt the veracity of the wedding have (I would accept among ignorant and uncivilised members of all groups, there will be bigots ergo Ashvin) have you never ever been screwed over by someone of a similar ethnicity.? Can’t you think of a countervailing example of a good experience with someone of another “race” (even asians)?

    The fact is you are likely to an aunt, great-aunt or even mother to a child who may be of a different “race” to yourself. Will you dismiss members of you family if they are?(God forbid you might have an asian relative!)
    If you do or already doing so then I pity you.

  126. BevanKieran — on 29th October, 2005 at 1:42 pm  

    Geez. Apologies to P.P for my shit grammar and spelling and generally missing words from my comments which could already be covered under my apology for grammar.

  127. The Dude — on 29th October, 2005 at 1:46 pm  

    Ashvin and No Way are flip sides of the same coin. Bevan, don’t waste your time trying to convince them that they are wrong. They are racist, racist of the worse kind and beyond help. Let them keep ranting. The rest of US have got work to do.

  128. BevanKieran — on 29th October, 2005 at 1:51 pm  

    The Dude

    Should definitely be investigated. I also wonder about the employment practices of small ethnic minority businesses and whether they come under enough scrutiny.

    Anecdotally, a friend remarked that Chinese restaurants and businesses tend to employ south-asian staff but the opposite occurs less frequently. I didn’t disagree.

    Ashvin

    You are a cunt.

  129. Sunny — on 29th October, 2005 at 2:32 pm  

    Ashvin – clearly you have no brain, or that brain is so infected by BNP propaganda that you might as well call yourself a vegetable. This is a website for progressive people, not for dumb fucks like you. Please take your racism elsewhere.

  130. Ashvin — on 29th October, 2005 at 2:34 pm  

    Sunny, I’m not being a racist, but I’m just frustrated about people trying to blame it on Asians.

  131. Ashvin — on 29th October, 2005 at 2:36 pm  

    Ok I will apologise if I hurt people’s feelings here, but I won’t apologise for standing up for my people. Is there something wrong with it?

  132. Sunny — on 29th October, 2005 at 3:06 pm  

    If standing up for your people means being racist towards others, then no – it is not tolerated.

    If certain organisations can be blamed for stoking up this controversy in the first place, gangs of Asians can also be blamed for taking the violence out of control.

    Two innocent guys are dead, the least we can do is stop blaming and looking to find a basis for commonality. Your comments were in extremely bad taste and something the BNP would come up with. Maybe you shoudl think about that.

  133. no way — on 29th October, 2005 at 3:14 pm  

    @Intelligent people only ( which means NO ASHVIN)

    did I ever encounter racism from people of my own ethnic genetic make-up………NO

    Now I would prefer the overt racism by the BNP, but with Asian it tends to be covert, they are happy coming with you to rnb clubs, take shit about * long live 2 pac mannnn*, otherwise they are ashamed to show you in front of family.

    hypocritical especailly the Pakistani, we share the same religion, yet the discontent they treat us is breathtaking. In islam racsim is a BIG NO, yet Pakistanis and the Indian racist Hindu caste system it is a good to be racist

    Now as I said my sister is married to a white guy, would i dissmiss my nephew …….NO, simple that is family, if anything my brother-in-law would put asians and whites to shame he has no ignorance.

    yes that is the word IGNORANCE……..differeny from racism but never the less it is destructive.

    The shear number of people like Ashvin or even YOU who ASSUME that we are all gangsta, gun tooting, baby mothers is WORSE than a BNP calling me a n*****r.

    As i said Blacks faught for all ETHNICS in the 60s, which has resulted in Equal opportunities act, and fast forward 40 years a few letters after name and a little promotion among pakistanis and we are *jealous and low *

    now listen, as i said no one has managed to answer this question

    is crime a genetic pre-disposition?

    are babies born criminals?

    why do black males do excellent in junior school , but it goes down hill once enter the secondary eduction system?

    why do Asians get favoured over blacks in the racist system?………hint *sucking up*

    I can go on and on, it i s a shame that you have been brainwashed by racist white media.

    Now I am at University (oh yes i am , not your ghetto hodrat), and i see subtle racism from lecturers towards blacks, their unwillingness to help, but i still ask, only because i have elevated confidence, but if you have low self esteem then that treatment then you would leave.

    My sister went to do medicine in Leeds and she had to leave after one year due to covert and overt racism, she moved to another uni and finished her studies.

    I can go on and on, racism is still ALIVE AND KICKING.

    The day will come , when whites will make asian lives hell………who will the asians turn to……..not us for sure, we have learned our lesson from the 60s when we fought for equal rights for all.

    White man colonized you and used the didvide rule theory and asians lap it up like dogs, they THINK Africans are inferior.

    As I said us Africans are not BEGGING for your attention or love, we just want one thing RESPECT.

  134. Sunny — on 29th October, 2005 at 3:19 pm  

    White man colonized you and used the didvide rule theory and asians lap it up like dogs, they THINK Africans are inferior.
    Ok now you’re just getting childish “no way”

  135. damian — on 29th October, 2005 at 3:26 pm  

    @ no way…well said

  136. damian — on 29th October, 2005 at 3:27 pm  

    sunny, whatabout “no ways” questions

  137. no way — on 29th October, 2005 at 3:30 pm  

    It is true

    How many times you hear this

    *blacks are jealous of asian success*

    answer the above.

    first as i said it is NOT TRUE, I know high calibra professional blacks, the only difference is that you do not SEEM them, unlike GP or BOOTS Pharmacist, you can. Hence you gather your views from the racist media.

    remember the *Islamaphobia*…….how did it feel to be labeled as a terrorist?………..

    not nice is it

    so as i said we are not *jealous*, we just want respect.

    simple as

  138. no way — on 29th October, 2005 at 3:35 pm  

    Damion

    they will not answer the question, because it will revel their covert racism

    I mean the Caste system where you are Born to be a certain status……and what do you know the darkskinned indians are *untouchable*

    so i would not be surprised if they blieve that blacks are genetically pre-disposed to be criminals, completley erradicating *social systems*

    as i said it is not the overt racism , heck i dont care if you call me n****r 101 times, it is the covert * we are only good friends as raving , clubbing partners*

    pathetic

  139. damian — on 29th October, 2005 at 3:59 pm  

    I think it’s sad that asian parents forbid their children to hang out with blacks. i’ve experienced this first hand

  140. Sunny — on 29th October, 2005 at 4:04 pm  

    I’m getting bored of your rhetoric no-way, it is mostly based on your naivety, and because you’re still a little kid, I’m not gonna be too harsh on you.

    regarding caste:
    It is a problem yes, but if you do some more reading you’ll realise there are plenty of movements against the caste system and in many places in India, specially cities, it has broken down tremendously. For the vast majority of British Asians, it is discussed but doesn’t feature as an issue. So for you to try and use it as an “issue” is laughable.

    blacks are jealous of asian success

    There are well to-do blacks and well-to-do browns. Your point is what exactly? Are people jealous? Some might be, see the email I was forwarded regarding the riots here. Also see The Voice newspaper this week about Asian businesses squeezing out African businesses. I’m afraid you and I are not the only ones imagining it.

    As I said us Africans are not BEGGING for your attention or love, we just want one thing RESPECT.

    Well that’s nice, but calling us lapdogs or willing to swallow “white-colonialism” isn’t exactly respect. Practice what you preach first and then start shouting. Until then you’re just an annoying little kid.

  141. no way — on 29th October, 2005 at 4:31 pm  

    annoying or not it is true

    jealous this and jealous that

    let me ask the question

    does Doctor, Lawyer=Good race

    does it?

    doubt it………..everyone in my family is doctor, lawyer………..etcam i proud……FAR FROM IT, I am ashmed to admit that we are all being brainwashed to do something *respectable* just for SHOW,

    so does being a doctor or lawyer make you a better person?……….what about the stroy of the asian doctor who killed his wife to cash on her life insurance.

    so please to those asians who say we are jealous because you are all doctors hence means asians are superior is a load of bollock.

    because when judgement day comes God/Allah ( insert) he will not look at your friggin qualifications.

    so give me a humble street sweeper than a pompus arrogant * superstar status shop owner, doctor etc.

    @sunny

    we are not jealous……THE VOICE IS PUPPET NEWSPAPER OWNED BY WHITES.

    so please do not insult us by quoting mainstream brainwashed media.

    all people ask for is RESPECT………. Beside……I am going way beyound Riots……..no sir i am looking at this build up that will reach war point.

    come on now……lets be honest……..you say you do not follow white-colonization, okay lets look at this

    Uganda, kenya etc during british colonization the british bought thhem over and implemented their divide and rule crap………how by causing hostility between two groups, giving asians priority in everything …………and when they got kicked out what is the first thing the asians said *they are jealous of our success*………..ask yourself this, imagine if british bought Africas to india and *helped them* to do better, after the independence what would the asians do, claim back whts theirs……..imagine if Africans said * they are jealous of our success*

    Respect………LOL……….well before you *deleted* the raicst posts from asians……….why………did they show respect………..why did you delete the racist post, ashamed that it might show exactly how asians feel about us.

    No comment, I shall now leave you to debate and gobble whatever Myths you hear.

    i would like to thank Sonny for allowing me to read and interact with Asians.

    salaam

    The riots is just one of many.

  142. Don — on 29th October, 2005 at 4:34 pm  

    Is it just me or is it only in the past week that it has become normal to refer to posters as ‘cunts’ and ‘dumb fucks’ on this blog? We do seem do have more angry adolescents with a ‘simple as’ response to the world than previously, but does that rule out civilised discourse?

  143. leon — on 29th October, 2005 at 4:49 pm  

    @ Don, good point and yeah it does seem that resorting to slagging people off has superceded debate/discussion on some posts on here recetly…

  144. rina — on 29th October, 2005 at 5:13 pm  

    @Don, Sunny was right in calling Ashvin that, you should have seen his racist posts. He really sounded like some stormfront or kkk-figure. Shame Sunny deleted this nutcase’s posts.

  145. Don — on 29th October, 2005 at 5:48 pm  

    @ rina
    I didn’t see the posts in question, and I agree that deletion of racist rants helps the debate, just suggesting that Sunny might have been right to think that, but could have set a better example to the youngsters.

    BTW, I know this may appear patronising, but I think the inclusion of the more immoderate, emotional people on this site is excellent. I get the impression that some are actually trying to engage in a more serious debate than they have found on other sites, where spittle on the screen is normal, but need a little guidance.

    On re-reading, that’s very patronising, but I don’t care.

  146. niemand — on 29th October, 2005 at 5:56 pm  

    jullie zijn allemaal een stelletje sukkels

  147. gori-girl — on 29th October, 2005 at 5:58 pm  

    i think the don is right, they shouldn’t delete posts. Like what Ashvin said wasn’t horrible or anythin

  148. I WANT GORI BRIDE — on 29th October, 2005 at 6:04 pm  

    shes right

  149. Don — on 29th October, 2005 at 6:11 pm  

    Um, actually I said that, in cases of gibbering racist rants such as we saw during the late inter-regnum (Sunny’s jaunt to Paris) then deletion is a good thing.

  150. Don — on 29th October, 2005 at 6:15 pm  

    But thanks, gori-girl. Henceforth I am ‘The Don.’

  151. great — on 29th October, 2005 at 6:36 pm  

    Great…just great. Now we’re going to continue the discussion with people like “gori girl” and “I want gori bride”. This place is going to the dogs.

  152. Sunny — on 29th October, 2005 at 6:39 pm  

    If a post is racist or simply throws insults at other people, it gets deleted. I am all for emotional and passionate debate, providing it stays within certain boundaries of decency.

    I’ve been moderating sites for years so I speak from some experience that this policy allows a better standard of debate otherwise it just degenerates into cussing. Yeah my language could have been better for kids but sometimes I get wound up :)
    Ashvin’s posts can’t be judged because I’ve deleted some of them. Just take my word for it.

  153. PISSED ASIAN — on 29th October, 2005 at 7:11 pm  

    FORGET ALL THIS SHIT. US BROWNS AND BLACKS NEED TO STICK TOGETHER. COS THE ONLY ONE WINNING HERE IS THE BNP AND THE NF. STOP CHATTING SHIT ABOUT WHITES LIKES US MORE..NA MATE WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO THIS WHITES SEE US ALL THE SAME. AND YOU KNOW WHAT IT DOESNT EVEN MATTER WHAT THEY THINK..ITS ALL ABOUT HOW WE SEE OURSELVES. LIKE I SAID WE NEED TO STOP THE FIGHT AND JOIN FORCES. COME TO MANCHESTER 10TH OF NOVEMBER, WHERE BLACKS AND ASIAN UNITE. BROWNS AND BLACKS UNITE

  154. The Don — on 29th October, 2005 at 7:26 pm  

    PISSED ASIAN

    Left hand side of the keyboard. Third one up.

  155. Black boy — on 29th October, 2005 at 7:36 pm  

    Most definitely…To all my asian bredthren and sisthren, united we stand, divided we fall.

  156. x — on 29th October, 2005 at 7:43 pm  

    black boy..yea let’s all just forget the 4 young black men who got killed.

  157. Jeet — on 29th October, 2005 at 7:55 pm  

    Just a question – has it been confirmed that the second murder was related to the events? Its just that I live in Handsworth and there are shootings in Newtown every week – it might not be related. So the death toll might be one dead.

    Which is too much. What can we say about the innocent man who was murdered by a racist and violent gang of men? I feel sad and ashamed. Rest in Peace.

    ++++

    David T

    Salma Yaqoob comes from Small Heath right on the other side of town. I would have preferred to have seen a person from Lozells speaking at the forefront – there are plenty of articulate Asian and Black youth workers from Lozells – but I guess Salma has the contacts and is the designated spokesperson by certain people on this issue. I agree with you that Respect are divisive and communal – they make no effort to reach out to Sikhs, Hindus or African Caribbeans.

  158. Jeet — on 29th October, 2005 at 8:01 pm  

    x

    As far as I know one, maybe two black men were murdered. Hundreds of Black and Asian men and women were hurt by rampaging gangs.

    What are we to do about it? Do you want to instigate a process of ‘revenge’?

    The police have already caught some people for the stabbing murder – let them do their job and nail the bastards.

    In the 1985 riots two Bangladeshi men died – what good would it have done to make more trouble out of that? We are talking about peoples lives here. People are at risk of violence and death and misery. You probably dont even come from the locality.

    That goes for all people – Asian, Black or White – who have been shit stirring – its not you that has to live with the consequences.

  159. craig — on 29th October, 2005 at 8:08 pm  

    It’s true, the young men who got killed should not been forgotten.
    Even though I’m white I really hope both sides work things out.

    My girlfriend who’s black has tons of asian friends by the way. They get along fine

  160. x — on 29th October, 2005 at 8:11 pm  

    Not more troubles Jeet…just not forget them

  161. Jeet — on 29th October, 2005 at 8:20 pm  

    x

    They will not be forgotten. This whole incident needs to be remembered and we need to get our shit together and not let anything like this ever happen again. People are weeping and the whole area is tense – its not just the man who was murdered but people – Asian and Black – who were stabbed, shot, spat at, punched, had bricks thrown at them who are scared and frightened. Black and Asian people have lived side by side here since I was born on this has damaged the fabric of our lives.

    We have problems and we have issues – it should never come down to this. We talk about them. Black and Asian women have been terrified because rumours have been going round that they were going to be ‘targetted’. This is evil and barbaric and it all has to stop now.

    And this is a Lozells/Handsworth/Aston thing. Black and Asian youth and women and community activists (not the fat pompous men who sit on their thrones and survey everything like Kings – proper youth activists from the street) need to get together now and talk.

    In future, any issue gets dealt with face to face and with one thing in mind – we are one community and family and if brothers have an argument we discuss, argue, disagree, cuss and yell and then step by step we reach a conclusion and we are still brothers at the end. A satisfactory conclusion so that everyone feels respected and has been heard.

    We solve the problems and listen to all sides. But we dont start with all the hype and threat and nonsense and escalate.

    And people from outside Lozells – STAY AWAY!

  162. gori-girl — on 29th October, 2005 at 8:21 pm  

    craig i think you have a point :) kisses from gori-girl

    ps do you have blue eyes?

  163. x — on 29th October, 2005 at 8:56 pm  

    Well said @ Jeet

  164. craig — on 29th October, 2005 at 9:20 pm  

    gori girl – yes, I have blue eyes, but is this relevant somehow

    Anyway, I think this issue does not only concern the inhabitants of Lozells, as you noticed many Black and Asian outside Birmigham are very emotional and have their own views about it.

  165. Kulvinder — on 29th October, 2005 at 10:51 pm  

    I ought to say that I’m no fan of the empire, I did want to point out that a ten year old Briton scraping crap from beneath a cotton loom in Manchester for sixty hours a week was no more a colonialist oppressor than some bloke floating face down through some slum in New Orleans is an agent of U.S. hegemony.

    And the hundreds of thousands who died in the Irish potato famine because of an overriding belief in the markets and profit were as repressed and down trodden as any ‘non-white/european’ person.

    I can’t claim to be a communist, but its nice to meet someone with a reasoned view on the empire.

  166. j0nz — on 30th October, 2005 at 2:19 am  

    PISSED ASIAN

    Left hand side of the keyboard. Third one up.

    LOL.

  167. always right — on 30th October, 2005 at 7:48 am  

    yea whatever kulvinder, just admit you fancy scratch

  168. Scratch — on 30th October, 2005 at 8:20 am  

    I came here so I could turn all of you in communists muahahahaha *evil laughter*

  169. Scratch — on 30th October, 2005 at 8:21 am  

    And my real name is Vladimir by the way muahahahaha *evil laughter*

  170. jOnz — on 30th October, 2005 at 10:15 am  

    LOL.

  171. basic — on 30th October, 2005 at 10:19 am  
  172. The Don — on 30th October, 2005 at 1:43 pm  

    Interesting, that thread seems to have just forgotten about the rape claim and the putative causes of the riot and is swapping family stories about rude shopkeepers their mums met. And the first claim I’ve seen that this depressing campaign puts them in the tradition of Rosa Parks.

  173. punjabi flava — on 30th October, 2005 at 2:42 pm  

    ligali are a bunch of dumb idiots who spread nothin but lies and dumb mumbo jumbo. its time they shut down that site just like they did with blacknet. its the only way you shut people like them up

  174. pecan — on 30th October, 2005 at 3:04 pm  

    whats up with half those dozy ass self appointed community leaders anyway?!!! they claim their urpose is to speak for the community, yeah rite more like all they want to do is further their own agendas, future political careers etc.

  175. son — on 30th October, 2005 at 3:13 pm  

    @the don , punjabi flava
    All they do there is moan about Asians being racists. Let them moan and have their own little pathetic forum. Infact, I wouldn’t want that forum to close, their threads and writing is hilarious for a read. Let them make a complete laughing stock of themselves and for the whole world to see.

  176. punjabi flava — on 30th October, 2005 at 3:23 pm  

    hehehehe true

  177. navigator — on 30th October, 2005 at 3:28 pm  

    Someone needs to educate these people ASAP. So a whole boycott is jutified because *oohhh my granny was called a darkie* LOL. How is that reasonable? Can anyone anwser this for me?

  178. Sunny — on 30th October, 2005 at 3:30 pm  

    Well, let’s not deny that Asians do have a problem of racism towards Africans. Everyone here seems to be making out they’re angels.

  179. navigator — on 30th October, 2005 at 3:42 pm  

    some asians maybe, doesn’t mean they have the right to boycott us all!

  180. Black boy — on 30th October, 2005 at 3:58 pm  

    Navigator – I agree, there is no valid reason for the boycott. Eventhough I was followed around the shop nuff times, I think people are over-reacting here. What we should do is stop pointing the finger at each other and start talking in a civilised manner, before racial segregation kicks in.

  181. navigator — on 30th October, 2005 at 4:09 pm  

    your comment doesnt make any sense to me??

  182. punjabi flava — on 30th October, 2005 at 4:25 pm  

    black boy i think you should stop and botherin us with the unite message. instead of waisting yours and our time here you should go to the ligali forum and teach those people ASAP

  183. punjabi flava — on 30th October, 2005 at 4:30 pm  

    well said :D I would like to see you posting those messages at ligali. Your “asian bredthren” got the message now LMAO

  184. punjabi flava — on 30th October, 2005 at 4:30 pm  

    well said @navigator

  185. Sunny — on 30th October, 2005 at 4:57 pm  

    Punjabi flava – in fact black boy’s comments are more welcome than the sort you are making. PP has always been about working together on issues and resolving the problem. Blackboy has no more need to go to Ligali than you have to go to “pendus are us” and apologise for Asian racism. So be curteous to others, this is not a place just for Asians. If you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

  186. BevanKieran — on 30th October, 2005 at 5:05 pm  

    In response in Black boy’s call for understanding to prevent segregation, Punjabi flava politely tells him to fuck off from the nominally Asian website to an African website. The irony is not lost on anyone.

    Punjabi flava. Are capable of having a constructive dialogue with someone whose name indicates they might be of different ethnicity to yourself?

  187. punjabi flava — on 30th October, 2005 at 5:12 pm  

    hold on I never told him to f off, just i was getting tired of the “asian bredren and sistren” :D
    i dont have problem with black people coming here btw

  188. Al-Hack — on 30th October, 2005 at 5:17 pm  

    Bloody people from the village….

  189. bioux — on 30th October, 2005 at 5:21 pm  

    hmm I see the story of my “granny” being called a “darkie” is being discussed here..As a ligali-member I would like to know what exactly is your problem with ligali?

  190. navigator — on 30th October, 2005 at 6:27 pm  

    @Bioux I read your comment at the ligali forum and I was suprised.I don’t have a personal problem with you(you sound like a nice gal). I have a problem with the organisation telling you to hate me.

  191. BevanKieran — on 30th October, 2005 at 6:30 pm  

    My problem with Ligali neatly summarised by part of the following thread.

    http://www.ligali.org/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=17&t=383&s=a5ad580cce788a4452a2ccc3a3d80a4f

    “Some White people think that because they have sex with Black people or occasionally wear a Bob Marley T-shirt that they understand the struggle of Black people.
    Worse still there are Black people who think because that White person has sex with them and works for a Charity that that person is not a White Supremacist which is the same as a Racist.
    If there are any surviving Black people on the forum please could I have your feedback as I would like to hear your perspective as I have had enough of what appears to me to be the other.
    Some White people have a sense of humour that betrays their Racist core.”

    Your response to this filth (the proceeding comment) bioux, nothing. It is indicative of Ligali as whole, racist filth propagated and unchallenged. A comment like that would be pooh poohed and the origin of the post humiliated.

    Thats what separates blogs such as P.P and Harry’s place with MPACUK, Khalifat, LIgali and the neo-nazi websites such as Stromfront.

  192. navigator — on 30th October, 2005 at 7:04 pm  

    hahaha what do you have to say for yourself representing thtat shithole. Not that I have anything against you, but tell me something where is the hate coming from? Is it jealousy, be honest?

  193. no way — on 30th October, 2005 at 7:08 pm  

    Bevan

    what is wrong with the article?

    actually it is valid, how many times you hear a white guy saying yeah i would not mind shagging an exotic bird ( blacks and asains), but still freely say P***i and N****r.

    The problem with this political correct madness is that anything with race is seen as racism and being senstive.

    and sorry regarding a comment of *darkie*

    picture this…….imagine from the age you was allowed to go unsupervised to a shop……..fast forward X years and after incident and incident, are you telling me your prespective will not change…..come on be honest.

    I am sorry to say Ligali is like stormfront then i would say Asiannet is site that exceeds stormfront in every manner possible.

    Now I will be honest this site is indeed progressive site , but you have to understand ANY African owned website would be labelled as *racist*, why……because africans want to discuss something for themselves?

    we get asians coming to Ligali writing things like blacks are lazy , we are all doctors and other FALSE allegation, what do you want us to do?………..

    come on now be reasonable.

  194. navigator — on 30th October, 2005 at 7:23 pm  

    PLEASE enough I’m in stictches. Just because some granny was called darkie 1000 years ago, you’re still going to be angry> And I read the posts made by Asians(before they were deleted, ) and they didn’t litteraly say “you’re lazy” . They asked you why, instead of moaning about Asian businesses, don’t you work like we do. Why were they deleted? Don’t you like the truth?

  195. navigator — on 30th October, 2005 at 7:28 pm  

    “Hard work is good for the soul” :D

  196. no way — on 30th October, 2005 at 7:31 pm  

    *sighs*

    navigator aka Avrin or whatever

    I though I made myself clear, I will only debate with intelligent people.

    now you can insult about 1000 years ago, and don’t think that we cannot spot your dumbed down posts , even the deleted ones………but in the time being………….I would like 2 naan bread with that.

    LOL

    Thankyou

  197. BevanKieran — on 30th October, 2005 at 7:34 pm  

    Navigator.

    Do you type one-handed? You masturbatory gloats of “Asian” successes and “Black” failure strongly indicate that you are whacking off furiously with the other.

    Bioux

    If THAT picture is you, then your beauty is greatly diminished by your failure to confront BICRE with his racism.

  198. navigator — on 30th October, 2005 at 7:35 pm  

    First of all who’s Avrin?

    And second, buff my shoes please. Thank you! LOL

    Anyway, you can dicuss with me, I’m only challenging your views :D

  199. navigator — on 30th October, 2005 at 7:36 pm  

    You know we’re only joking around right :D

  200. navigator — on 30th October, 2005 at 7:38 pm  

    First of all I don’t masturbate.

    Second, I’m not gloating over our succes..no really I’m just challenging other peoples views.

  201. no way — on 30th October, 2005 at 7:43 pm  

    Bevan

    Since you are in Ligali

    what do you think of my Tazmania picture?

    LOL

    @Nave…… juice…………..you got D.I.S.S.E.D.

    LOL

  202. BevanKieran — on 30th October, 2005 at 7:45 pm  

    No Way

    I will assume that there are racist asian sites on the same level as Ligali and that P.P is progressive.

    “What is wrong with article?”

    “Some White people have a sense of humour that betrays their Racist core” smacks of the racism Malcolm X displayed pre-Hajj. It just is’nt fitting for the time. Modern-day Britain is a much better place to be African (or Asian) than the Deep South in 1960s.

  203. navigator — on 30th October, 2005 at 7:45 pm  

    no way is not bioux…..let me look up who you really are:D

  204. navigator — on 30th October, 2005 at 7:51 pm  

    AHA! no way = “sooofresh”

    Are you the “fresh” who’s posting here?

    By the way, can you give me bioux’s email addy, I need to tell her something about how we can discuss segregation and how to stop it, :D

  205. no way — on 30th October, 2005 at 8:00 pm  

    BevanKiern,

    sorry but you are being sensitive

    The article is just emphasising the covert racists in society.

    come on someone like Benny Hill (RIP NOT!) who made crude jokes about africans and asians in the name of *comedy*, yet barks i aint racist, still it underlies the true feelings.

    I am not expecting you to understand, but nothing I detest more is white boi coming to me with *yeah mannn blood claart* without knowing the meaning of the vulgar word and even worse assuming that i would accpet cause I am black.

    This is what the article is refering too.

    simple ass

    anyway I take it you don’t find Tazmania atractive then!
    LOL

    @nav
    yes i am sooofresh, I aint hiding from nada, since pickled politics likes to only post forums from here, it is my responsibility to make sure that it gets interpreted the correct way.

  206. BevanKieran — on 30th October, 2005 at 8:08 pm  

    Reading through more of BICRE it is does seem as if he trying to BE Malcolm X pre-hajj. I went through the same stage when I was doing my G.C.S.E’s. The Headmaster patted my on the head, I duly wrote a letter the next day accusing him perpetrating an act of white supremacy, and promptly got suspended. Thankfully, I grew up.

    Navigator

    “First of all I don’t masturbate.”

    That was hilarious. You have made my week! If I was being a little aggressive it was because you reminded me of Ashvin who posted earlier.

  207. no way — on 30th October, 2005 at 8:14 pm  

    Bevan

    LOL

    now you are exaggerating……..

    but fair enough

    again yo have to realise that Ligali FORUMS , anyone can post a topic, ANYONE, as long as it does not step the deceny line. Hence you cannot brush every Ligali member.

    beside have you noticed that the thread you are mentioning has only 3 replies?……….that should give you an indicator.

  208. BevanKieran — on 30th October, 2005 at 8:19 pm  

    OT

    No Way

    If you the picture of Taz indicates a curious affection for these pugnacious marsupials, then get to Austrailia quickly. A grotestque virus is unleashing facial tumours of tazmanian devils and their population is rapidly diminishing.

    news.nationalgeographic.com/ news/2005/03/0329_050329_tasmandevil.html – 29k – 28 Oct 2005

  209. navigator — on 30th October, 2005 at 8:27 pm  

    Okay, okay maybe the “I dont masterbuate” line was a little over the top.

    Anyway no way, did you manage to get me bioux’s addy. I have a feeling she’s not coming back since beaver indirectly called her ugly… :D

  210. navigator — on 30th October, 2005 at 8:28 pm  

    I mean bevan sorry

  211. BevanKieran — on 30th October, 2005 at 8:32 pm  

    I didn’t say she was ugly! Have you not seen the picture!

  212. no way — on 30th October, 2005 at 8:44 pm  

    yes, it is my duty to protect the Tazmania species…………hopefully with my pharmaceutical science knowledge i might be able to save them, since i am aware racist (lol) Australian government does not want to help them.

    Actually what happened to the Cartoon?

    anyway would you agree that the particular thread by BICRA …….i cant even remeber their name has not got many attention , smply because we gone beyound caring.

    but i have to add this is a good site, still can’t wait untill Blacknet opens again.

    hmmmmmmm
    @nav

    NO NO NO NOWAY……….I cannot subject the poor girl to any more punishment.

    Look at you , you see a pretty face and suddenly racism dissapears…………don’t think i forgot the *banana boat* quote.

  213. BevanKieran — on 30th October, 2005 at 8:59 pm  

    I did not judge Ligali by that thread alone. I don’t intend to use anymore of Sunny’s bandwidth on explaining why except to say that Ligali does mirror Malcolm X’s pre-Hajj views, particularly on race, which makes it so noxious.

  214. no way — on 30th October, 2005 at 9:05 pm  

    @Bevan

    you wrote

    *Ligali does mirror Malcolm X’s pre-Hajj views, particularly on race, which makes it so noxious. *

    prove it……..NOT FORUMS…..these are discussion boards, but the Ligali mission policy.

    and back it with statments and how it implies that it means excluding others.

    lnow i can give an example at the home page for this website it says that it is progressive for ASIAN.

    and Ligali is a website dedicated to the empowerment for Africans

    I could trun around and say that mimicks Malcom X pre haj………but that would be stupid.

    seriously tell me how Ligali Mission policy is same as stormfront.

    sorry but you are looking at PUBLIC FORUMS.

  215. navigator — on 30th October, 2005 at 9:06 pm  

    Ahhh sooofresh(i’m sure I can call you that) why not,? I just want to explain to her that I’m not a racist..no really.

    Anyway were you a member of blacknet?

  216. no way — on 30th October, 2005 at 9:13 pm  

    yes i am a member of Blacknet, and it will up and running soon (inside knowledge)

  217. BevanKieran — on 30th October, 2005 at 9:47 pm  

    Yes I was judging Ligali by the forums, and the apperance of Toyin on the Pakistani T.V debate and their behaviour leading upto Birmingham Riots.

    “back it with statments and how it implies that it means excluding others”

    Two contrasting visions of humanity

    Statement from Toyin (Ligali Leader)
    “I do believe that a woman is a woman irrespective of nationality, but just as I expect european men to partner european women, and vietnamese men to partner vietnamese women, I also believe it natural for African men to partner African women for the purpose of having African children, steeped in a stable, holistic and productive environment for their cultural, social, spiritual and educational development.”

    Malcolm X (Post-Hajj, one month before he died)
    “I believe in recongnising every human as a human being-neither white, black, brown or red; and when you are dealing with marriage as a family then there’s no question of integration or intermarriage. It’s just one human being marrying another human being or one human being living around and with another human being.”

    From your previous posts I know you favour racial segregation and many asians probably would agree with Toyin. But they suck ass. You can probably tell by know I don’t hold much currency in my race nor what another person’s race is.

    You have acknowldged that P.P is progressive. Organisations which may be nominally race-based are’nt always regressive (and racist). Contrast the Nation of Islam with the S.C.L.C. in the civil rights movement.

  218. Sunny — on 30th October, 2005 at 9:55 pm  

    Ahhh…. I hate racial segregation. Let’s all have one big mass orgy. That would take care of things.

  219. BevanKieran — on 30th October, 2005 at 10:03 pm  

    Hi Sunny

    Listened to the debate. Toyin was out of order and for what it is worth (not very much as we don’t really know each other) I think you will make a great father.

  220. navigator — on 30th October, 2005 at 10:49 pm  

    “Ahhh…. I hate racial segregation. Let’s all have one big mass orgy. That would take care of things.”

    Come on, what’s with the sarcastic tone Sunny,atleast I’m being friendly towards them . :D

  221. Sunny — on 30th October, 2005 at 10:51 pm  

    Ha ha! That is very kind of you. My mum watched the debate too and that was the first thing she said. It’s all good, I can take the heat.

  222. Sunny — on 30th October, 2005 at 10:52 pm  

    No sarcasm, I’m being serious. I love orgies :D

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