how was i supposed to know that existed! (not in the print edition)

im talking in terms of neoimperialism.

davetheslave: I’m talking about liberal Muslim voices being heard more. I’m not Muslim.

“The guardian is generally less idiotic than most papers in the UK.”

Ha ha ha! You’re killing me! [*bursts out into fits of hysterical laughter*]

Good joke!

The origins of the Israel test are given in the link above. I ask Inayat Bunglawala has he passed his Israel test and everytime he says no and he is happy with failing this test.

‘what’s the “israel test”? do i pass it?’

Oh, I think so. As far as I can gather the ‘Israel Test’ is proposes that a moslem can support (or at least recognise) Israel’s right to existence, but an Islamicist can’t.

The MCB, however, seem to regard boycotting Holocaust memorial day as an extension of this putative test. Couldn’t work out the logic.

I suspect it is less an actual ‘test’ than a rhetorical device of little real value.

I posted this on CiF, because I suspect it is true: only you and Inayat can prove me wrong:

“Inayat,

Do you think you are a changed man since you started posting here? I think you are, but it is for you to say.

Could you and Sunny not just have a cup of tea together? Your recent stuff is not far away from the bearded ones views. Nor vice versa.

I quite admire the both of you, and this, is frankly going nowhere….”

Think about it please?

I think she’s going to make a difference.

“The reigns” – is this a deliberate pun on your part?

Who says I have a problem with the MCB in itself? I criticise them, as I criticise other organisations such as the Hindu Forum, Hindu Council, Sikh Federation, etc etc because if they make mistakes or do silly things they should be accountable to the people they claim to ‘represent’.

I wrote a big article on how these groups, by virtue of the games they play in media/politics circles, and their claims to represent minority groups, do more harm than good. On the ground these organisations do squat all. Maybe the local mosque does…. or people get on with their lives. If 6% of Muslims think the MCB represents their voices, they’re not exactly having much impact on the ground are they?

But you’re underestimating their impact in two ways. Firstly, in forming or trying to enforce govt policy. A good example:
http://dalnunstrong.blogspot.com/2007/02/mcb-guidance-for-schools-mustnt-censor.html
and
http://www.eteraz.org/story/2007/2/23/32343/7719

Secondly, it tries to censor and shut down debate with the community, on the nature of its origins
http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/62
and
http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/415

It is intent on the destruction of Israel – that is in the charter. I don’t support any terrorist body that wants to destroy a whole state (and presumably the people in it since they don’t intend to go anywhere).

The BNP are an organisation founded on attacking already disempowered, oppressed and persecuted minorities.

What is your definition of ‘disempowered’? Are all minorities by definition opressed or is there some measure you’re using here?

You insult the black and asian communities of Britain by pretending to yourself that they are the equivalent of Israeli colonialism.

Don’t patronise by trying to be the brown/black man’s saviour. Stick to answering the question – are you in support of people blowing up innocent people or not? Because the kids who did so in 7/7 undoubtedly took their cue from Hamas/Hizbullah. Were they poor little persecuted minorities too?

#56
‘problem at hand’, hmm indeed, not sure who’s problems you are referring to but good luck to you!

#60
I think you over estimate the real power of mcb on politics and media in this country. Personally im, and probably many other muslims, are more interested in reform dynamics within the noah’s ark of muslim communities in the uk.

It’s not your right to criticize that i’m disputing, I just feel youve got some wires crossed, though not as many crossed as many of the commentators here. The face of the muslims of britain is worn by the believers, a scarey thought maybe, but true.

Lots of funky people contribute towards the betterment of the mcb not out of power trippery, but because it is a collective muslim institution. Do you have a problem with clumps of muslim organisations organising at a greater level or something? Dont we have sovereignty over

The media’s shortcoming is that it somehow ends up simplifying everything for the sake of simplicity. MCB itself could do a lot better, but i find it hard to see them as tyrants, as many here are suggesting. Different information i guess. Theres a myriad of projects and initiatives theat they are pursuing that are having real affects throughout the country. Its not the A-Team, no ones saying it is.

I don’t hang on every word of every press release, though it seems that you do. Whats the problem between you and inayat, why so personal?

#61 I agree with James O. PP is a playground. theres no gandalf here.

The guardian is generally less idiotic than most papers in the UK. I dont know how that related to whatever you define liberalism to be here, but islamaphonic was a good idea, though appropriated from the q-news folks. Put’s a smile on my face, good for non muslims who must be quite bewildered by muslim messes.

CiF however is too blogy and ranty.

This is the traditional tactic of Sunny: insult and evasion. Learn to answer the questions will you Sunny?

‘At least the BNP doesn’t publicly call for or carry out the killing of innocent people, unlike Hamas.’

The distinctions between the two organisations should not need emphasising. Hamas is directed on ending the occupation and oppression of Palestine, which following Israel’s equation of itself with the Jewish people worldwide, can spill over into anti-semitism. The BNP are an organisation founded on attacking already disempowered, oppressed and persecuted minorities. You insult the black and asian communities of Britain by pretending to yourself that they are the equivalent of Israeli colonialism. If you truly believe they are equivalent to Hamas, then you know nothing about either fascism or Imperialism.

you don’t seem to have made a case for “explaining” why we should agree with you that he MCB should be treated in the same manner as the BNP

Be a good boy and read my article again. I haven’t equated the two. I’m saying that this policy, taken to its logical conclusion means Nick Griffin would be invited. At least the BNP doesn’t publicly call for or carry out the killing of innocent people, unlike Hamas.

Fugstar: I think muslims who do stuff have less angst towards the mcb than non muslim moaners, we see it as a small voluntary organisation that does some nice stuff and has some limitations.

True, but you underestimate that the MCB and its chums are the public face of British Muslims in the media and politics world, and they end up doing some serious damage to community cohesion by virtue of opening their mouths.
Besides, Inayat and his friends are quick to criticise others about world events, why shouldn’t they be open to criticism too then? I open myself up to criticism every day on here.

Can’t answer if you are the only one though if I was a commenter at CIF I would make the assertion that you are without evidence or any shame of lack of evidence.

But you are right in saying that the articles there seem to be auto-opinion and that they don’t provoke thought so much as reflex action.

What I would like would be a sheep from goats system to the comments as they have at http://www.salon.com. The editor selects the twenty or so comments that are thoughtful or well-informed or even, amazingly, come from first hand experience and you have a choice of looking at them or looking at the general ruck.