Conflict, encapsulated


by Sunny
10th October, 2010 at 9:17 am    


An Israeli driver runs down a masked Palestinian youth, standing amongst a group of children throwing stones at Israeli cars in Silwan, a neighbourhood in East Jerusalem. NYTimes


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  1. sunny hundal

    Blogged: : Conflict, encapsulated http://bit.ly/ceKajP


  2. rowan davies

    Heartstopping picture > RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : Conflict, encapsulated http://bit.ly/ceKajP


  3. earwicga

    RT @rowandavies: Heartstopping picture > RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : Conflict, encapsulated http://bit.ly/ceKajP


  4. John Bell

    Conflict, encapsulated (Pickled Politics) http://bit.ly/9ZKMs7


  5. Andrew Madden

    RT @rowandavies: Heartstopping picture > RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : Conflict, encapsulated http://bit.ly/ceKajP


  6. Steve Kelly

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  7. Azrael

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  8. Karl E. Pants

    RT @rowandavies: Heartstopping picture > RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : Conflict, encapsulated http://bit.ly/ceKajP


  9. Colm O'Gorman

    Disturbing > “@rowandavies: Heartstopping picture > RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : Conflict, encapsulated http://bit.ly/ceKajP”


  10. Naadir Jeewa

    Reading: Conflict, encapsulated: An Israeli driver runs down a masked Palestinian youth, standing amongst a group … http://bit.ly/aLygcJ




  1. Rumbold — on 10th October, 2010 at 10:06 am  

    Is this really ‘conflict, encapsulated’ though?

    The settler should be prosecuted for this. The whole settler movement needs to be condemned much more forcibly by the Israeli government, and stopped from building on Palestinian land, with arrests if necessary. But to say the the above photo sums up the conflict is something one might expect to see in a tabloid. Statements like this aren’t particularly helpful, as you will never get peace until you recognise that all sides must share some of the blame for past and present actions.

  2. Roger — on 10th October, 2010 at 10:34 am  

    If a bunch of teenage hooligans tried to stone Sunny Hundal to death, he would of course chant “kumbaya” and not try to save his own life. Nosiree.

  3. earwicga — on 10th October, 2010 at 10:53 am  

    Rumbold – I disagree. I think the photo perfectly encapsulates the power dynamics in the region.

  4. Kismet Hardy — on 10th October, 2010 at 11:31 am  

    fahkin ell roger it’s you innit? You what goes ‘he frew a pebble so I frew a fridge on ‘is head didna’ and makes such an utter mockery of the notion of fair fighting. Talk about eye for a chinese burn! It’s you. You’re the one that makes the world such a horrible place

  5. Sarah AB — on 10th October, 2010 at 11:46 am  

    Kismet – in the fuller video we can see that the back car window has been completely smashed by stones. I *think* this happened after the child had been hit, but it does show that the driver (who apparently had his son with him) might have been thrown in a panic by the situation. He does slow down, at first, rather than zoom off, but presumably then moves away because the stones smashed the back window at that point. Be’eri has been questioned by police. I don’t think the same can be said for the people who recently murdered four settlers.

    The settler movement seems unhelpful to me too, so it’s understandable that this should lead to frustration, but it’s not the only unhelpful force in the region.

  6. Roger — on 10th October, 2010 at 12:01 pm  

    Yeah Kismet, you can’t stone Jews anymore, innit. What’s the world coming to.

  7. Shamit — on 10th October, 2010 at 1:12 pm  

    Rumbold – spot on.

    I love it when people try to claim some hands are clean in the region – well no one’s is. And Settler movement is the biggest problem in the middle east peace process and they should be stopped.

    But using this picture to make a poliical point and paint all Israeli’s to be bad well its just not valid -

    In India, when a car hits someone the driver usually tries to run away with the car rather than stopping because he fears a mob attack. What makes people think if he stopped the drive and his son would not have been attacked?

    But most people on this thread are not worried about making valid arguments but more focused on reiterating their firm beliefs which may or may not have anything to do with the reality on the ground. That includes the post – and I was told recently I am acting like a right wing troll and not like a grown man.

    hmmmm….

  8. Kismet Hardy — on 10th October, 2010 at 1:21 pm  

    I know there’s always more to things than meets the eye, but as a snapshot I find it quite poetic. It does encapsulate the whole david and goliath thing, no? I know it’s just a dude in a car and he doesn’t represent shit on his own, but as a metaphor for the might of the israeli army coming down hard because like roger they equate kids throwing pebbles as ‘stoning… to death’ and justifying overreactions as a call to ‘save his own life’, it kinda hits home bonnet first. You’re in a car. Drive off. You’re in a tank. Breed fish in it. You know?

  9. Random63 — on 10th October, 2010 at 1:28 pm  

    Here is the link to the full video, if anybody is interested in watching it:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eb7_Rnf_BI

  10. Shamit — on 10th October, 2010 at 1:33 pm  

    “I know it’s just a dude in a car and he doesn’t represent shit on his own,”

    That’t the point Kismet.

    And Roger equated Sunny with Lee Jasper in one of the other threads. So I don’t put much value on his opinions anyways.

    But you have to love the narratives though -

    for some people – Israel is always right.

    For some people – Israle is always wrong.

    Anyone who falls in either of these categories please acknowledge you have a problem.

  11. Kismet Hardy — on 10th October, 2010 at 1:34 pm  

    Just saw the vid.

    Um. Oh.

    Well.

    You know.

    Oh look. A flower

  12. earwicga — on 10th October, 2010 at 1:38 pm  

    I love it when people try to claim some hands are clean in the region.

    The photo doesn’t do this.

    well no one’s is

    As the photo shows.

    But using this picture to make a poliical point and paint all Israeli’s to be bad well its just not valid

    Again, the picture doesn’t do this.

    What makes people think if he stopped the drive and his son would not have been attacked?

    Who is thinking this? Of course they would have been attacked.

    Who are the ‘most people’ you are referring to Shamit?

  13. Shamit — on 10th October, 2010 at 1:49 pm  

    1 – the photo does not – but my comment was not based on the photo alone. I was more referring to Rumbold’s point.

    2 – the photo was used in this post with a headline:

    Conflict, encapsulated

    I wish the conflict was that simple.

    3 – you and roger specifically and I am sure more would come to share their thoughts who would fall in their category. And history about I/P threads for the past three years would back my argument.

  14. Shamit — on 10th October, 2010 at 1:51 pm  

    In this particular photo – if you are driving through a mob who ware pleting you with stones – how does that encapsulate the conflict?

    How does the car signify the might of the Israeli armed forces – how do the stones signify weak palestinian response. The driver, according to the video, was trying to avoid the palestinian youths – while they were keen on attacking the car.

    So how in the world does this encapsulate the conflict?

  15. damon — on 10th October, 2010 at 2:12 pm  

    This incident is just what it shows in the video.
    Adults encouraging young children to ambush and stone passing cars so they can film and photograph it. The people who were standing there with the cameras are the ones that should be prosecuted.
    I see child abuse going on here. And the driver of the car isn’t guilty of much more than being a settler. (Which is not a good thing to be IMO)

  16. Sarah AB — on 10th October, 2010 at 2:26 pm  

    Perhaps it encapsulates it by eliciting such different interpretations. My initial response was to assume Sunny saw this photo as a representation of strong and nasty Israel vs powerless Palestinian victims. This is perhaps unfair, but it also seemed to be the assumption drawn by Rumbold and Roger.

    But earwicga’s comment at 12 opens up a more nuanced reading of the photo (which may be Sunny’s reading too) which perhaps concedes that the Israeli driver has more power (economic, social) but that at the same time he’s in some real danger here – if hit by one of the stones he might have lost consciousness and both he and his son might have died.

    On the other hand the Palestinian boys are behaving badly and recklessly – but that doesn’t stop what happens to them being awful and they (or their families) may have genuine cause for grievance, even if this obviously isn’t a good response to that grievance.

  17. earwicga — on 10th October, 2010 at 2:28 pm  

    Thanks Sarah AB. I’m glad you see it.

  18. Roger — on 10th October, 2010 at 2:46 pm  

    which perhaps concedes that the Israeli driver has more power (economic, social) but that at the same time he’s in some real danger here

    Right, so if a Tory is assaulted randomly in the street by a bunch of thugs throwing rocks, we should talk about his “economic and social power”. Nuance, donchaknow.

    Actually, that might work around here.

    Oh, and if you object to this kind of idiocy, you are, of course, automatically an Israel-can-do-no-wrong partisan.

    Er, OK, sure, whatever.

  19. Rumbold — on 10th October, 2010 at 2:48 pm  

    Thanks Shamit.

    Earwiga and SarahAB:

    I suppose we have to wait until Sunny tells us precisely what his interpretation meant. I read it in a different way to you both, but I could be wrong.

  20. alex the awesome — on 10th October, 2010 at 3:05 pm  

    most people don’t encourage their children to play in traffic throwing stones at cars. most people put down their cameras when a child is hurt. all this photo shows is that playing in traffic is a bad idea and some people’s only priority is taking a picture.

  21. Don — on 10th October, 2010 at 3:20 pm  

    Sarah AB

    Good comment. However valid their grievances, if you put someone in real and immediate danger they will react and your well-being will probably not be a high priority.

    One other thing, at the end of the video the injured kid is being forced into a vehicle against his will amid much shouting, by the very adults who had been filming and encouraging these youngsters to put themselves in harms way. That is almost as life threatening as the original hit – broken ribs, damaged spine etc.

    Why would they do that when surely everybody knows this?

  22. Bored in Kavanagasau — on 10th October, 2010 at 3:24 pm  

    I’m not a driver, but from the video it looks like he could have broken sooner. If the driver’s son was in the car, then I think that would be an important detail that may help his case.

    There is another issue about the manipulation of children. The deputy head, Katherine Birbalsingh, drew some criticism for using images of children at the Tory conference which does indicate the (perhaps over) sensitivity in our culture today. I agree with Damon it was a form of child abuse and the adults involved should face some kind of legal action. They should be acting as guardians, steering children away from throwing stones. It is similar to goading children into crossing railway lines before trains pass and recording the outcome. I think it was irresponsible of major news agencies to use these images (and before being accused of a neo-zio-homo-con conspirator, there is other non-child abuse related footage out there that could be and is used to make Israel look bad.)

    In the following video, the Asian driver and his passenger are racially abused and their car attacked by a horde of moronic West Ham supporters. It provokes an interesting response from the driver (no one gets hurt in the video). West Ham supporters encapsulated:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9NkOgaTAPk&feature=player_embedded

    In this case, would Sunny support both the native English defending their land from incursion by Asian “settlers” by throwing beer glasses at them and the prosecution of hockey-stick wielding “settler”?

  23. Sunny — on 10th October, 2010 at 3:43 pm  

    Think Sarah AB and earwicga have it exactly right. It’s obvious the kids were antagonistic towards more affluent Israelis. They attack. The driver panics, and runs the kids over and drives off, injuring him, but with more regard to his own safety than that of the kid.

    Both sides will of course dispute who has more power – but I don’t think it’s the kids…

  24. alex the awesome — on 10th October, 2010 at 3:51 pm  

    the people with the power are the ones standing around making a film out of the whole thing.
    they’re not getting attacked and nor are they on the road in dangers way (or minors who might not know any better). their position seems quite comfortable really, and the end result is they get their footage.

  25. Sarah AB — on 10th October, 2010 at 3:51 pm  

    Roger – I don’t think anyone (Tory, settler, whatever) should be attacked in this way. But the youth and situation of these boys makes me view them a little differently from adult yobs in the UK scenario you outline. Also, as others have pointed out, it seems they were being manipulted by adults. The driver was dealing with a highly stressful situation – the photographers seem to have created it – I assume it suited them very well that these children were put in danger. (Possibly that’s unfair, but that’s how it looks to me.) Certainly – though I understand why the first commenters responded as they did – the headline and picture Sunny put up could conceivably accompany quite a *pro* Israel article. But another reason why the pic encapsulates I/P is because it has been taken up by news services as part of a very anti-Israel narrative.

  26. Pedant — on 10th October, 2010 at 4:01 pm  

    I would agree that this photo doesn’t have enough context to make snap judgments; certainly I didn’t know that the driver had his child in the car too.

    I doubt very much whether I would have stopped either. In fact I know I wouldn’t. I owe everything to my children but nothing to those that attack me or them.

    Harsh, but true for me.

    I wonder if this hatred and deep seated problem can ever be solved in that region? My feeling is that it cannot.

  27. Sarah AB — on 10th October, 2010 at 4:01 pm  

    This is turning into a more and more telling ‘encapsulation’. Yes, the Palestinian youths have less power in a sense than the Israeli driver. But he is in as much danger from them as they are from him. Maybe his behaviour was suboptimal here (I don’t drive so I don’t like to judge) but if I was driving my son and there were people throwing stones at the car smashing through the back windows I don’t think I’d stick around either.

  28. Roger — on 10th October, 2010 at 5:05 pm  

    It’s obvious the kids were antagonistic towards more affluent Israelis.

    “Antagonistic”? Try attempting to seriously injure or kill.

    “Affluent” – what on earth is that word doing there? Does it make idiotic violence somehow OK?

    but with more regard to his own safety than that of the kid

    Yes, I’m sure in such a situation Saint Hundal would stop the car and say “stone me some more, please”.

    But the youth and situation of these boys makes me view them a little differently from adult yobs in the UK scenario you outline

    Sorry, that’s just lame moral relativism. You could use the same line to view some teenager from Sderot stoning the first Palestinian he sees “a little differently”.

    Somehow I don’t think that would go down very well here.

  29. Mam Tor — on 10th October, 2010 at 7:39 pm  

    If you look at the frosting on the rear windscreen (caused by shattering) it does look as if the top half is clear (disappeared) and the lower half frosted in the shot Sunny has chosen, suggesting the rear windscreen was broken before or simultaneously to the child being run over.

    Perhaps this event caused the driver to swerve initially.

    I’m not convinced by people who think the driver is at fault here, bit of a rush to judgement they probably regret.

  30. Sarah AB — on 10th October, 2010 at 8:00 pm  

    Mam To – I went along with internet accounts which suggested the back windows were broken *after* the collision with the child – but I think if it is indeed true that he had his own child in the back, and if the windows at the back had been broken in this way before the collision, then it is hard to blame him for leaving the scene of the accident.

  31. Sophie — on 10th October, 2010 at 8:42 pm  

    The car was driven by ELAD director and settler leader David Be’eri. Elad is a Hebrew acronym for: ‘To the City of David’. On 1 September 2010, ELAD sponsored a conference about archeology in Silwan, East Jerusalem. Elad is stealing Palestinian land and homes with the support of the Israeli government and protection of the IOF. Please see how protesters were beaten and arrested in September: http://josephdana.com/2010/09/israel-vs-israel-a-protest-in-silwan-against-settlements/.

    In international law, East Jerusalem is occupied territory, as are the parts of the West Bank that Israel unilaterally annexed to its district of Jerusalem. The Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 and the Hague Regulations of 1907 forbid occupying powers to alter the lifeways of civilians who are occupied, and forbid the settling of people from the occupiers’ country in the occupied territory.

    Jerusalem not only was not being built by the likely then non-existent “Jewish people” in 1000 BCE, but Jerusalem probably was not even inhabited at that point in history. Jerusalem appears to have been abandoned between 1000 BCE and 900 BCE, the traditional dates for the united kingdom under David and Solomon. So Jerusalem was not ‘the city of David,’ since there was no city when he is said to have lived. No sign of magnificent palaces or great states has been found in the archeology of this period, and the Assyrian tablets, which recorded even minor events throughout the Middle East, such as the actions of Arab queens, don’t know about any great kingdom of David and Solomon in geographical Palestine. (http://www.juancole.com/2010/03/top-ten-reasons-east-jerusalem-does-not.html)

    Therefore, criminals such as Be’eri are using fictional archaeological sites to further dispossess an ethnically cleansed and occupied people.

    In a Huffington post piece today Sharmine Narwani argues: “International law recognizes the right of a person living under occupation to resist or retaliate against occupying forces – nobody would question a Palestinian lashing out at an Israeli soldier. But kill a Jewish settler, and the lines get blurred fast. Under the Fourth Geneva Convention, the “occupier” (Israel) may not settle its populations (Jewish settlers) in occupied areas (West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem), but these laws also do not permit the harming of civilians except in the case of self-defence during an act of violence. In other words, although Israel flagrantly violates the former law by incentivizing Israeli citizens to move into occupied Palestinian territory, these same international conventions do not allow Palestinians to willy-nilly defend their lives and property from Jewish settlers – except during actual hostilities, when they are usually at a considerable disadvantage…. Whatever they are, Israel’s settlers are most certainly not “civilian persons who take no part in hostilities.” There is nothing “innocent” about these people or the state that hides behind them, dangling their most crazy citizens as live bait to further a warped religious-nationalist agenda.” (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sharmine-narwani/israels-human-shields-and_b_755439.html)

    The analysis of anyone on this thread who implies there is a power symmetry between occupier and occupied cannot be taken seriously.

  32. Sophie — on 10th October, 2010 at 9:04 pm  

    I should also add that ideological settlers often use the threat of attacks in their cars, or actual attacks, against Palestinian residents. I witnessed one particularly conceited settler in Sheikh Jarrah, E. Jerusalem, rev his car and make as if to mow down the children playing in the street, then laugh in the face of our anger. They act as they do because they believe Palestinian lives are worthless, and they feel empowered to do so because of the virtual immunity they enjoy from any penalty commensurate with their crimes.

    Please see this post http://blog.thejerusalemfund.org/2010/10/settler-attacks-on-wheels.html: “vehicular attacks by settlers against Palestinian civilians are also not rare occurrences. In the 18 month period we analyzed, we coded 37 instances of vehicular assault – an average of approximately 2 per month. About 40% of these instances take place in or around Hebron, another 16% occur in the Bethlehem governorate, with the remaining attacks being divided more evenly among other areas.

    At 9am on July 7th, 2010, for example, a settler in Bethlehem ran over 3 Palestinian civilians causing injuries to all, including one Palestinian civilian who sustained serious injuries.

    At 6pm on June 15th, 2010, a settler near the settlement of Kiryat Arba in Hebron’s old city ran over a 10-year old Palestinian child. The child sustained serious injuries and had to be evacuated immediately to a hospital for treatment.

    A week prior, at 11:30am on June 7th, an Israeli settler ran over a Palestinian civilian near the village of Marj al Ghazal in the Jericho governorate. The victim sustained serious injuries and had to be evacuated to a hospital.

    And only a week before that, at 8:30pm on May 31st, an Israeli settler ran over a 59 year-old man and his wife near Beit Ummar, a village in the governorate of Hebron. The attack injured the man and killed his wife, who did not survive the injuries she sustained…”

  33. Don — on 10th October, 2010 at 9:18 pm  

    The car was driven by ELAD director and settler leader David Be’eri

    So what?

  34. Sophie — on 10th October, 2010 at 9:22 pm  

    Don, read the rest of my two comments, then try your ‘So what’ next to each point, and get back to me.

  35. Pedant — on 10th October, 2010 at 9:48 pm  

    Sophie, given the circumstances i.e that the car and its occupants came under attack, it really doesn’t seem at all relevant who was driving the car.

    If you attack people, and most especially if you attack people when they have their children with them, you can expect to get hurt, however old you are.

    It really is that simple.

  36. Sophie — on 10th October, 2010 at 9:59 pm  

    @ Pedant, it is only as simple as this:

    1) Should ideological settler leader Be’eri legally be considered a civilian in this context of a military occupation by a state that is violating IHL and IHRL every day? See Huffington post piece I linked to.

    2) Ideological settlers mowing down Palestinians is part of a pattern of state-sanctioned, racist and illegal aggression against these occupied people that has escalated in the last months to a beyond-tolerable degree.

    3) Palestinians enjoy a right of resistance, although it is subject to the limits of international humanitarian law.

  37. Mark T — on 10th October, 2010 at 10:01 pm  

    I should also add that ideological settlers often use the threat of attacks in their cars, or actual attacks, against Palestinian residents. I witnessed one particularly conceited settler in Sheikh Jarrah, E. Jerusalem, rev his car and make as if to mow down the children playing in the street, then laugh in the face of our anger.

    If the Palestinians around these settlements are worried about settlers using the threat of attacks to strengthen their position, it’s probably best not engage in actual attacks, is it not?

    Likewise if you are worried about being run down by these settlers, why run around in the road in front of them?

    Or am I missing something?

  38. Mark T — on 10th October, 2010 at 10:04 pm  

    Should ideological settler leader Be’eri legally be considered a civilian?

    Err… yes? FFS, he might be repugnant, but he is not a soldier.

    Ideological settlers mowing down Palestinians

    Again, why run around in the road if this is a pattern of behaviour from settlers?

    Palestinians enjoy a right of resistance

    Define what form of resistance.

  39. Sophie — on 10th October, 2010 at 10:07 pm  

    You are missing something – it’s called illegal annexation and theft of Palestinian property and land by violent ideological settlers empowered by an apartheid, occupying state.

    The incident in question occurred in a neighbourhood where families have been evicted to make way for these religious settlers – of which the man described above was one. The children were playing in their residential (sort of cul-de sac) street in front of their former homes. The settler revved his car, laughed, then a kid took a key and scratched the side of the settler’s car. The settler got out and made as if to lunge for the child; I stood in front of him, and he asked me if I wanted to fuck him, adding he had condoms in his car. Nice, religious people these settlers…

  40. Mark T — on 10th October, 2010 at 10:08 pm  

    Also the post you link to, Sophie, straightforwardly defines this incident as an “attack”.

    That makes me quite sceptical that the other incidents mentioned there are also “attacks”, given the rather poor empirical basis for defining this incident as such.

  41. Mark T — on 10th October, 2010 at 10:10 pm  

    You are missing something – it’s called illegal annexation and theft of Palestinian property and land by violent ideological settlers empowered by an apartheid, occupying state.

    You are quite strange.

  42. Sophie — on 10th October, 2010 at 10:21 pm  

    Mark T, what is rather strange is the attempt by many commentators to remove this incident from its political context.

    Question: What was ELAD director Be’eri doing on that street?

    Answer: He came to look over his share in the spoils (so far accumulated and he can expect more) of the war crime he is assisting the Israel state to commit. Therefore, even before he drove into those children, he was guilty of a grave offence against them for which he will face no punishment.

  43. Sophie — on 10th October, 2010 at 10:31 pm  

    I sense I may need to spell this out: The Israeli settlement policy is a war crime under the Fourth Geneva Convention and its protocols. Israel’s illegal annexation of Occupied East Jerusalem does not affect the illegality of the East Jerusalem settlements: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.”

    Be’eri is a ‘soldier’ in this transfer process. Be’eri is digging in illegally annexed East Jerusalem and endangering Palestinian homes: http://www.israeli-occupation.org/2009-10-05/chief-jerusalem-digger-admits-excavation-endangers-arab-homes/

  44. Mark T — on 10th October, 2010 at 10:41 pm  

    Interesting use of inverted commas there, Sophie.

    Sadly the facts aren’t changed by them.

  45. Sophie — on 10th October, 2010 at 10:46 pm  

    @ Mark T, yeah, the honest approach would be for the Israeli state to give those defenceless settlers a uniform, and arms – oh wait, they are already armed.

    You don’t seem to have an answer the the fact that Be’eri is aiding and abetting further Israeli war crimes in illegally annexed Palestinian territory.

    Be’eri is one of Israel’s illegal paramilitary settlers.

    You want more ‘facts’? As matters of fact AND of law, the gross and repeated violations of Palestinian rights by the Israeli army and Israeli settlers living illegally in occupied Palestine constitute war crimes. Conversely, the Palestinian People are defending Themselves and their Land and their Homes against Israeli war crimes and Israeli war criminals, both military and civilian.

  46. Ben — on 10th October, 2010 at 11:37 pm  

    This incident reminds me of the attack in 1987 on a road not far away from this very location, in which the driver, a young woman named Seri Revital, was attacked by stone throwing youths. She was brained and killed, one of the first of many victims of these murderous tactics.

    The organizers of this anti-Jewish crime and their supporters and enablers should be hunted down and punished.

  47. Pedant — on 11th October, 2010 at 1:45 am  

    Sophie, one thing has nothing to with the other in your line of logic.

    Look, it’s quite simple really: Did that man, his child and his car come under attack?

    Yes or no?

    Did he react in the way that any responsible parent would in removing his child from danger?

    Yes or no?

    Do you really believe that he put his kid in the car, drove around until he found some masked kids willingly to attack him purely so he could run them over?

    Yes or no?

    It really does come down that, I am afraid Sophie.

    I am no defender of Israeli oppression, but fair is fair. On this occasion, I make him right.

  48. douglas clark — on 11th October, 2010 at 4:13 am  

    What a load of shit comments!

    Random63 @ 9 got it right in showing the frigging video of the incident.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eb7_Rnf_BI

    Though, no doubt that too will be contested.

    You are all using a still out of a very confused and difficult situation to make cheap political points. I respect the driver for taking time to drive away…reasonably carefully in the circumstances.

    It is worth noting the number of adults with cameras photographing this apparent wrong. This was not spontaneous, it was deliberate.

    Have you all gone mad?

    The child is the victim, not of the driver, but of the surrounding publicity machine.

    Get a grip!

  49. Sophie — on 11th October, 2010 at 10:44 am  

    @ Pedant:
    ‘That man’ is Director of ELAD, and one of Israel’s paramilitary settlers in occupied territory.

    ‘That man’ brought his small child into battle. Be under no illusions that this is a battle as no sane person is going to let their property and land be stolen without putting up a fight.

    Let me ask you how you would react if the person who had burgled your house, with total impunity, returned to the scene of the crime? Remember that you have been denied legal protection and redress, so you are on your own.

    In Sheikh Jarrah, E. Jerusalem, I was always amazed at these crazed settlers who brought their small children in buggies to in and out of homes that had been stolen from Palestinian families who now lived on the street in tents (regularly pulled down by the IOF). They knew how legitimately angry the local residents were, and this was a conflict brought on by the adults into which they willingly brought their children. By contrast the local children had no safe place to hide from the grave menace of state and settler violence. I was amazed at how calm these Palestinians remained given the extraordinary insult to their dignity, and threat to their lives and futures.

    Those kids are defending their homes where the Israeli state will not. Yes, it is clumsy and probably ineffective, but they are desperate. You are defending their aggressors, which is beyond contemptible.

  50. Ravi Naik — on 11th October, 2010 at 11:03 am  

    Those kids are defending their homes where the Israeli state will not. Yes, it is clumsy and probably ineffective, but they are desperate. You are defending their aggressors, which is beyond contemptible.

    There is no question about the power asymmetry, which is why the Palestinians are being screwed by Israel over and over. What Israel is doing is beyond contempt, and shame on the international community for not doing anything.

    But this thread is really about a photo encapsulating the conflict, which could in principle demonstrate the power asymmetry. The video, I think, dispels this effect. The kids ran in front of the car while in motion attacking with stones, with enough force to shutter the car’s window. I am sorry, but not only do I think that the car owner didn’t have the intention to run him over, but he would be a fool to stop the car and get out while being attacked.

    Another tragedy of the video is the fact that there are adults in the background with cameras most likely trying to capture the moment which encapsulates the conflict, and this gives the impression that it is staged. Not sure how this helps the Palestinian cause.

  51. Sophie — on 11th October, 2010 at 11:24 am  

    I thank Ravi Naik for speaking from the proper context of Israel’s belligerent occupation and ongoing and grave violations of IHL and IHRL.

    Paramilitary settlers are not entitled to the protections afforded civilians by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

    To quote a recent article on this issue: “imagine the torrent of outrage that would ensue even today if Germans were to condemn the European antifascist resistance for their attacks on civilians under German occupation. The media in Nazi Germany in fact did carry such condemnations of the “barbaric” acts of the resistance. Would anyone today dream of citing these condemnations as proof of anything other than the revolting cynicism and hypocrisy of their authors?” (http://meldungen-aus-dem-exil.noblogs.org/post/2010/09/19/are-armed-paramilitary-settlers-civilians-a-response-to-david-samel/)

    The reason why there were adults in the background taking pictures is because Silwan is now the site of violent Israeli repression and Palestinian struggle. Please see these post and similar: http://josephdana.com/2010/09/sheikh-jarrah-in-silwan-joint-struggle-in-action/ and http://josephdana.com/2010/06/violence-in-silwan-days-after-major-protest/

  52. Don — on 11th October, 2010 at 11:26 am  

    Sophie,

    You keep making the point that ‘That man’ is Director of ELAD,

    Are you suggesting that he was being targeted specifically, that this was some sort of ambush? If so then he had all the more reason to get away ASAP.

    If not, if he was attacked at random then how is his identity relevant?

  53. Sophie — on 11th October, 2010 at 11:39 am  

    It is obvious that the children knew he was part of the illegal settlement enterprise, and that is why they pelted his car with stones. They had an opportunity and they took it. I wouldn’t want my kids to do it because it’s reckless and dangerous and Israel severely punishes any violent resistance on the part of the indigenous people, but not violence on the part of Jewish settlers, etc, but as I have said 1) they are legitimately angry and have no legal redress and 2) David Be’eri is not a civilian in this context.

    Be’eri is not only director of Elad and therefore behind the current reality of more than 500 settlers, along with Uzi-toting security guards, living among Silwan’s Palestinian residents, he is an ex-Israeli commando who used to disguise himself as a Palestinian for undercover missions in the oPt. Did he hope the locals would throw roses at his car?

  54. Ravi Naik — on 11th October, 2010 at 12:23 pm  

    It is obvious that the children knew he was part of the illegal settlement enterprise, and that is why they pelted his car with stones. They had an opportunity and they took it. I wouldn’t want my kids to do it because it’s reckless and dangerous

    Do you believe children as young as the ones we see in the photo/video are doing it on their own accord, and are not being manipulated by adults who are trying to exploit the moment? You know, the reckless and dangerous way in which they get in front of a car in movement and throwing rocks at the driver? It is a good thing the driver was not hit, or the car could have been out of control and do even more harm.

  55. mostly harmless — on 11th October, 2010 at 12:24 pm  

    Maybe it would have been better to lay down a blanket of covering fire to clear a path for the settler vehicle. Or he could have just turned around and come back from where he came. Or maybe he could have driven slowly through the protesters. Instead, he appears to be driving towards the nearest one and trying to get 2 kids at the same time (you know the type, 1 shot 2 kills). This is just another example of how Palestinians are treated as subhuman by many in the settler movement.

  56. Sophie — on 11th October, 2010 at 12:35 pm  

    @ Ravi, do you really think these kids need to be ‘manipulated’ by adults? As I have made clear – even before the car hit them they were victims of grave offences by David Be’eri who is seeking (sadly, successfully) to dispossess them. If not these kids themselves – their brothers/sisters, cousins, friends have been exposed since birth to horrific violence by the IOF and settlers.

    1) Each year, approximately 700 Palestinian children are arrested, interrogated, prosecuted and detained in the Israeli military court system. Children are interrogated in the absence of a lawyer and family member, and the interrogations are not audio-visually recorded as an independent oversight against abuse. Reports of ill-treatment, and in some cases torture, are common, and the overwhelming majority of children confess during interrogation.

    2) The close and dependent relationship of most child protection organisations to major western governments, means that their work is constrained accordingly. For example, the alleged reluctance of UNICEF to take a public stand in challenging Israel’s violations as a signatory to the UNCRC and other international legal instruments was attributed by several interviewees primarily to fear of alienating funders as well as those with political influence in the US, where the pro-Israel lobby is immensely powerful. (http://www.rsc.ox.ac.uk/index.html?pub_policy)

  57. alex the awesome — on 11th October, 2010 at 12:51 pm  

    even if you could convince me that the guy in the car with his child was in any way a combatant that would only mean that a combatant was attacked by someone and the attacker suffered an unfortunate accident of his own making.

    as for context, why is the continual documented use of child soldiers being ignored here? is that not abhorrent?

    ” There is nothing “innocent” about these people or the state that hides behind them, dangling their most crazy citizens as live bait to further a warped religious-nationalist agenda.” ahem.

  58. Mam Tor — on 11th October, 2010 at 11:58 pm  

    It is obvious that the children knew he was part of the illegal settlement enterprise, and that is why they pelted his car with stones. They had an opportunity and they took it.

    In the video it looks like they have been talking to the driver of a car travelling in the opposite direction, with one of the small kids being prevented from throwing a stone at it by a larger kid.

    Doesn’t look anything like a pre-planned or considered assault on one particular person.

  59. Pedant — on 12th October, 2010 at 11:13 am  

    It’s shocking how the media deliberately attempts to manipulate our opinions.

    The originator of this thread through his choice of text and imagery intends his readers to believe that the driver of the vehicle deliberately used his car as a weapon against a chid.

    The video tells a different story.
    The rear window of the car is smashed prior to the child being hit so no doubt the driver was in a panic and in flight mode.
    The van parked on the bend ensured the driver had no idea of what awaited him, a car pulled up behind preventing any escape in that direction and regardless of anything else the child deliberately ran straght at the front of the car giving the driver no chance to avoid hitting him.

    What is encapsulated by this article is that unscrupulous journalists have no qualms about distorting reality, particularly by using injured children, to incite public opinion against Israel.

    Unless of course the message the OP attempted to convey was that in this conflict Palestinians often leave Israel with no choice…

    I wonder if the courts will be as lenient as they were with this guy…

    http://www.birminghammail.net/news/top-stories/2010/07/14/doctor-who-drove-into-children-in-sutton-coldfield-over-a-snowball-can-return-to-work-97319-26848320/

  60. Sophie — on 12th October, 2010 at 11:32 am  

    Many have interpreted the video footage as conclusively proving that the driver intentionally swerved and hit the children. This might be difficult to prove, but as I have repeatedly said the state-sanctioned disregard and contempt for the lives of occupied Palestinians, and impunity under the law for their aggressors, would suggest this is just one of several such ‘accidents’ in which the local people are mowed down by illegal settlers.

    Furthermore, these children would be no strangers to brutality: Today at dawn, Israeli soldiers invaded Silwan town, in occupied East Jerusalem, broke into the house of Mofeed Mansour and kidnapped his eight-year old child. Fakhri Abu Thiab, member of the Committee for Defending Silwan, slammed the kidnapping of the child and stated that this attack violates the international law, the basic rights of the children and even Israeli laws. Abu Thiab added that the army and the police surrounded the house of the child and took him away from his parents, terrorizing the child and his whole family. “Under what law, what right, can a child be kidnapped like this”, Abu Thiab stated. “This proves that the Israeli police reached a dangerous level of immorality and disregard for internationally guaranteed rights of the children”. http://www.imemc.org/article/59600

  61. Sophie — on 12th October, 2010 at 11:46 am  

    And this from last night: A unit of Israeli musta’arabeen (Israeli soldiers dressed as Arabs) captured four boys in the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Silwan last night. Suleiman Abduh Sayyam, age 10, was injured by a sound bomb and a rubber bullet to his leg during a confrontation that broke out in the village, but not arrested.

    Eyewitnesses in the Be’er Ayyub neighborhood recount that a unit of Israeli musta’arabeen captured the boys by dressing in street clothes, some with long women’s hair. After capturing the boys, they put on their police caps.

    The captured boys were Jihad Zeitoun, 12, Ayhab Shouiki, 11, Biha’ al-Rajbi, 12, and Muhammad Mufid Mansour, 13, all taken to the Israeli compound.

    The confrontation spanned from Wadi al-Ribab neighborhood to Be’er Ayyub, where the youths found the main street closed off and began to throw stones at the Israeli forces. The soldiers responded by throwing sound bombs and tear gas and shooting rubber bullets.

    Police also raided the home of Umran Mansour, age 8, in Be’er Ayyub and took his family in for interrogation.

    Last night, police also arrested 17-year-old Simah Maher Sirhan, the nephew of resistance fighter Samir Sirhan, in the neighborhood of Batan al-Huwa in Silwan, to hold him for three days.

    A private Israeli security Guard killed Samir Sirhan on September 23. Samir was driving by the Silwan neighborhood when the Israeli Security guard shot him. Since Sirhan murder, the Silwan neighborhood has experience larger Friday protest and violence.
    http://english.pnn.ps/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8878&Itemid=56

    Meanwhile, there was a session at the Knesset on Monday to discuss the battle in Silwan between illegal settlers and local residents: “Danon removed Taleb a-Sanaa (United Arab List-Ta’al) from the hearing after he questioned, “Is this a committee in favor of children or settlers?”

    Ben-Ari repeatedly called both Sanaa and MK Ahmed Tibi (UAL-Ta’al) “terrorists” and told Tibi to “go wear a dress with [Libyan leader Muammar] Gaddafi.” He later said in the meeting, “Even a child, if he is endangering someone’s life, should be shot at.” (http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=191043)

  62. damon — on 12th October, 2010 at 12:48 pm  

    Sophie, I think you are dragging this off topic really.
    It’s not that I disagree with what you say, but it’s meant to be about this particular incident …. and its very odd title of ”Conflict, encapsulated”.

    I’d like an explaination of that rather than another Israel/Palestine discussion. I think the settlements are terrible btw. And that many of the settlers are deeply unpleasant people.

    The children getting hit by the car was not the driver’s fault. Even if he is an illegal occupier.

    And let’s not ignore the fact that Palestinian youth like rioting and throwing stones. They are brought up with it. It’s part of their culture. The older ones teach the younger ones.
    I visited Hebron from Jersulem one day ten years ago, and as the bus came into town I saw there was a riot going on, so I tentatively went over for a look.
    There were bricks and stones flying everywhere – mostly bouncing off this building they were being directed at, and people were geting hit by them as they came back off the walls or were misdirected.
    The young kids who were doing it were injuring themselves with their own stones.
    Hiding in a shop doorway with some other adults I asked what was going on, but no one gave me a proper idea.
    It wasn’t anything to do with the Israelis though.
    Some Palestinian police came and broke it up, then I found out they were school children protesting at the local government not giving their teachers a pay rise or something, and the teachers had threatened to go on strike. The building they had been attacking was a education administration building I was told, and the children had been rioting in support of their teachers.

    The kids loved the drama of the riot, and when one of them would fall down with blood streaming from his head, his friends would rush to pick him up and put him in a car to take him to the hospital. Just like they do when they attack the Israels and watched on TV during the Intefada.

    Rioting is fun. Ask the young people in Ardoyne Belfast who rioted for three nights in August.

  63. Sarah AB — on 12th October, 2010 at 1:15 pm  

    Sophie – I think it’s a pity that you are, on the one hand, offering some news which (if true) is terrible – yet, on the other hand, distracting from the potentially important points in many of your comments because of your extreme hostility to settlers which seems to imply that you would consider those four people who were killed recently pretty legitimate targets.

    But is this story (to pick one example which stood out)

    http://www.imemc.org/article/59600

    definitely true? Is there more to it than this? Is it possible, for example, that the child had to be taken to social services if there was no adult left to look after him?

    Do people think Abbas was right to turn down Netanyahu’s latest offer?

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/netanyahu-offers-settlement-freeze-in-return-for-recognition-as-jewish-state-palestinians-say-no-1.318447

  64. earwicga — on 12th October, 2010 at 1:25 pm  

    Sarah AB – the article says the child was taken from his parents. Why would you ask whether ‘there was no adult left to look after him’? And why would IDF soldiers be arresting a child, or indeed be involved at all if a child was being taken into care?

    damon – the topic has broadened. Keep up.

    Sopihe – thank you for your comments and adding context.

  65. earwicga — on 12th October, 2010 at 1:28 pm  

    damon - this child looks like he is having ‘fun’ doesn’t he? I find your comments disgusting.

  66. Sarah AB — on 12th October, 2010 at 1:49 pm  

    earwicga – I could imagine a scenario whereby the *parents* had been arrested – and then the boy had to be taken somewhere too (but not arrested). If true, it certainly seems a dreadful story.

  67. Sarah AB — on 12th October, 2010 at 1:50 pm  

    I feel rather sceptical about stories in the Palestine Telegraph (though it may be true, who knows) because it prints some truly disgusting pieces.

  68. damon — on 12th October, 2010 at 2:29 pm  

    damon – this child looks like he is having ‘fun’ doesn’t he? I find your comments disgusting.

    I’m sure you do – and that’s why we disagree on almost everything. Of course that child is now terrified in that picture. Just like any rioter might be when first apprehended – and especially so if they fear rough treatment at the hands of the police or army.

    You’ve heard of the term ”recreational rioting” I take it?
    http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7GZAZ_en&&sa=X&ei=PVm0TPSaAtOSjAfzi_W9Aw&ved=0CCIQBSgA&q=recreational+rioting&spell=1

    I supect that Palestinian youth are not so different to youth in Northern Ireland in that regard.
    Is that what you find disgusting earwicga?

    This was Belfast in August. What do you think the motivation of these young people is? Resisting police repression? Some of them actually think that’s what they’re doing.
    http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/48336000/jpg/_48336778_009795953-1.jpg

    Do you not think that the EDL find having a bit of a riot fun? Or the anti-gay thugs in Belgrade the other day? Or the anarchists who try to turn every G20 or WTO summit into a riot. Don’t you remember Gothenberg and Genoa?
    Have you never heard of ‘Agro Corner’ in Derry, where catholic youths used to gather regularly during the 1970′s and just start rioting against the army in a most habitual way?

    The motovations of rioters are often hard to fathom.
    It’s much more obvious with Palestinians – who most definitely are oppressed.
    Have a look at this bloke though. It’s in (London)Derry city – on a street that at night becomes a bit of a strip of lively pubs and clubs for a mostly catholic local population.
    This guy really wants to hurt this policeman and cause him injury for some reason.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/images/2009/0810/1224252313796_1.jpg
    I can guess at his motive – although I wouldn’t agree with what he’s doing.

  69. Sophie — on 12th October, 2010 at 2:40 pm  

    @ earwicga, the topic has broadened as you point out, although one could argue that the question of how representative this still is of Israel’s military occupation was a broad one itself. After all, many would have us believe that this is a high-street traffic accident in any provincial town, and those children are just yobs/thugs in need of ASBOS.

    @ damon, your cynical comments are absurdly out of context. You might have mentioned the pressures under which those children live and the daily brutality they witness and are subject to: violent settlers who have sole access of some commercial and residential streets and are protected by the trigger-happy Israeli Offence Forces.

    @ Sarah AB, I completely fail to understand why you find it so difficult to accept that this is an asymmetrical ‘conflict’ and state and settler oppression of Palestinians is systematic. You ask why I’m hostile to ideological and armed settlers further dispossessing Palestinians? More importantly, why do you merely find them ‘unhelpful’?

  70. earwicga — on 12th October, 2010 at 2:40 pm  

    Thanks Sarah AB. I would of thought that the report would have included a detail like the arrest of the parents. But then I have seen the Daily Fail and know what you mean.

  71. Sarah AB — on 12th October, 2010 at 3:32 pm  

    Sophie – if you had simply said that it was an asymmetrical conflict and that there was state/settler oppression of Palestinians then I wouldn’t have disputed those points. I think that seems, at the very least, a fair point of view, although one might argue (for example) that the *immediate* asymmetry (Israel’s more powerful than the Palestinians) is partly countered by a different kind of asymmetry if you widen the perspective out and think about the region as a whole. Also the weaker side isn’t necessarily in the right just on account of its weakness. I think the whole settler movement seems unhelpful, and I’m sure aspects/instances of it include brutality and oppression. But there are all kinds of different settlements – and settlers too. Some are probably nasty pieces of work and some probably quite nice.

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3796682,00.html

    But just because they are nice doesn’t mean they aren’t part of a project which seems, to me, counterproductive. But my problem with your line of argument is that it seems to completely dehumanise them.

  72. Sophie — on 12th October, 2010 at 4:07 pm  

    I really think I’ve said everything I can say about Israel’s brutal military occupation and the threat to Palestinian lives and security that the illegal settlements represent.

    Sunny, how about a post on Israel’s New Loyalty Oath: http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2010/10/12/israels-new-loyalty-oath/?

  73. damon — on 12th October, 2010 at 4:14 pm  

    @ damon, your cynical comments are absurdly out of context. You might have mentioned the pressures under which those children live and the daily brutality they witness and are subject to: violent settlers who have sole access of some commercial and residential streets and are protected by the trigger-happy Israeli Offence Forces.

    I have no problem with any of that. I am not a supporter of Israel in the slightest.
    There might come a point though when you can decide (to yourself) that a ”culture of resistance” is actually a major part of the problem. I live in Belfast at the moment, and I can see it here.
    If you look up ”Ardoyne riots” on YouTube, you would see what I mean. There are still people who think that attacking the police and state will bring about something better for them – when to me, it just makes everything worse.

    Israel sucks – in my opinion – but so too does the conservative Palestinian culture of resistance and ”Shaheed”.
    Same with Hezbollah too.

  74. Roger — on 12th October, 2010 at 4:27 pm  

    Ha ha, I see earwicga goes to the Palestine Telegraph for information. It is the website that has published David Duke, Holocaust deniers, no end of troofers, and vicious blood libels. Perfect for “progressive” activists.

    While Sophie goes to sabbah.biz, a site for putrid antisemites.

    Lovely.

  75. Sophie — on 12th October, 2010 at 4:45 pm  

    Stephen Lendman, the author of the post is a ‘putrid anti-Semite’? http://sjlendman.blogspot.com/

  76. Roger — on 12th October, 2010 at 4:56 pm  

    Yes, he is. He’s the one who spread the Haiti blood libel on the Palestine Telegraph that got Jenny Tonge in trouble.

    This is the kind of thing you’ll find on sabbah.biz. Israel did 9/11 and now it will mount a nuclear attack against the US:

    This time, after America was so badly burned, pushed by the Bush security team, almost all Israeli citizens, many of them still around, running America for Obama, into two insane “Vietnams” it will take more than 3000 murders. With the “duping of America” over 9/11 coming unraveled, something horrendous is in the planning. There is an obvious next step and it has to be nuclear.

    http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2010/09/16/is-america-prepared-for-the-israeli-nuclear-threat/

    Sophie, are you a member of the BNP?

  77. Sophie — on 12th October, 2010 at 5:04 pm  

    Absurd slander, Roger!

    I have never seen or read Sabbah before – I linked to it for Lendman article, which I then realised is on his own blog, and I have seen no evidence that he is an anti-Semite.

    Roger, are you a member of the human race?

  78. Sophie — on 12th October, 2010 at 5:08 pm  

    In honour of you Roger, and lowering myself to your level, I googled ‘Lendman and anti-Semite’ and came up with this: http://sites.google.com/site/jewsagainstracistzionism/lendman-stephen-top-jewish-american-writer-slams-ethnic-cleansing-and-gross-abuse-of-palestinians

  79. Sarah AB — on 12th October, 2010 at 5:11 pm  

    http://thecst.org.uk/blog/?p=1514

    I think it’s entirely understandable that someone might link to the Pal Tel if they stumbled on it via Google because obviously some of the stories seem like (and may be) quite straightforward reports – but it’s pretty objectionable and I’ve pasted a link to an account of it above.

  80. malik — on 12th October, 2010 at 5:19 pm  

    Roger
    “Ha ha, I see earwicga goes to the Palestine Telegraph for information. It is the website that has published David Duke, Holocaust deniers, no end of troofers, and vicious blood libels. Perfect for “progressive” activists.”

    Roger no doubt prefers the far right zionist fare of “Eurabia” and Muslim takeovers of Britain/Europe.

  81. Roger — on 12th October, 2010 at 5:39 pm  

    Yeah yeah Sophie, who are you going to roll out next? Gilad Atzmon?

    Oh, here he is on the site you recommend!

    http://sites.google.com/site/jewsagainstracistzionism/atzmon-gilad-

    Yes Malik, opposing racism and fascism is all about “Eurabia”. Idiot.

  82. damon — on 12th October, 2010 at 5:46 pm  

    Yes Malik, opposing racism and fascism is all about “Eurabia”. Idiot.

    I think that the ‘Malik’ of today may well be the person who called himself ‘Kemal’ yesterday.
    It’s to be expected.

  83. Don — on 12th October, 2010 at 5:49 pm  

    I’ve just spent some time checking out sabbah.biz. and Pal Tel and frankly I would not cite either as a reputable source, any more than I would Vdare or Gates of Vienna.

    As for Lendman, he may or may not be an anti-semite, but he is certainly openly partisan.

  84. Sophie — on 12th October, 2010 at 7:00 pm  

    @Roger and Don – more cheap shots from you both. Please try and focus on the content on the articles I have posted.

    Lendman is “Openly” partisan as in outspoken about the creeping fascism and racism in Israel towards its Palestinian citizens and those it occupies? In fact, going through my papers I just came across this great one of his: http://sjlendman.blogspot.com/2010/08/impact-of-israeli-military-order-no.html

    “It’s a sophisticated form of social, economic, political and racial discrimination, strangulation, and genocide, incorporating the worst elements of colonialism and apartheid as well as repressive dispossession, displacement, and state terrorism to separate Palestinians from their land and heritage, deny them their civil and human rights, and gradually remove or eliminate them altogether.

    Apartheid is the worst form of racism, Israel’s militarized occupation its most extreme form, incorporating violence, military incursions, land theft, home demolitions, targeted assassinations, indiscriminate murder, mass arrests, torture, destruction of agricultural land, and isolation – measures amounting to slow-motion genocide, including suffocating Gazans under siege.”

    Ouch, what an anti-Semite…

  85. Don — on 12th October, 2010 at 7:36 pm  

    Pointing out that you are linking to a disreputable source is a cheap shot?

    I don’t see anyone disputing that the Israeli government and the IDF are behaving in increasingly appalling amd unconscionable ways. But your contention that any Israeli settler is a legitimate target for violence at any time is unhelpful to say the least.

    Are some Israelis guilty of de-humanising Palestinians and Arab-Israelis? Undoubtedly yes, and the increasing influence of fundamentalist orthodox rabbis on the IDF is seriously worrying. But de-humanising Israelis in return needs to be questioned. And citing as a source those who deny the hollocaust and throw around the blood libel is, at the very least, buying into the de-humanising narrative.

  86. Roger — on 12th October, 2010 at 7:54 pm  

    Yes Sophie, go on, keep pushing a man who spreads disgusting, vicious and manifestly false blood libels and whose work appears, again and again, on some of the worst far right racist websites out there.

    Do you need an extra shovel down there?

  87. Sophie — on 12th October, 2010 at 8:11 pm  

    Of course, it is pointless arguing with either of you for you see anti-Semitism everywhere, but a bit of evidence of Lendman’s far-right racism would be nice. Remember to actually read the two articles of his I cited, then get back to me, taking a break from endless diatribes over websites I don’t know and have never sought to defend.

  88. douglas clark — on 12th October, 2010 at 8:23 pm  

    Just to say that, never having heard of Lendman, nor having engaged in any of this thread, what Sophie quotes @ 84 is neither a blood libel, nor indeed something not at least worth discussing.

    I am getting increasingly irritated with the whole idea that any debate can be cut off by claiming that anything Israel does is protected by the pseudo super injunction of anti-Zionism.

  89. Roger — on 12th October, 2010 at 8:37 pm  

    Here you go, listen to your hero going on and on (and on) about Israel doing 9/11 with the CIA.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PHgWHdipVs

    You are pathetic and disgusting.

  90. Sarah AB — on 12th October, 2010 at 8:40 pm  

    I think invoking ‘genocide’ in relation to I/P is problematic, to say the least. On another post Lendman points out Gaza’s population is growing rapidly. Sorry, I’m beginning to sound like the kind of commenter who likes to claim that Gazans all eat at fancy restaurants all the time, when they aren’t shopping in swanky malls, which is obviously far from the case. There are plenty of rational points to make about the real difficulties faced by Palestinians – exaggerating them is counterproductive.

  91. damon — on 12th October, 2010 at 8:43 pm  

    You can argue the finer points of Israel/Palestine forever. I thought the photo and the headline of ”Conflict, encapsulated” was the most interesting thing to debate here.
    I know the way this blog goes by now, and that point of discussion will be lost and ignored.
    Just like with earwicga saying she thought it was ”disgusting” of me to compare situations like rioting in Northern Ireland in August, with that in the West Bank. And that it could be actually ”fun” and exciting for those youths who engaged in it.
    If I’d said it was ‘exhilarating, exciting and scary’ – I wonder if that would have been received better. ?

  92. Don — on 12th October, 2010 at 9:01 pm  

    Douglas,

    The blood libel refers to this article, which claims that Israel sent medical teams in the aftermath of the Haitian earthquake in order to harvest organs. Note the use of the word ‘tentacles’ in that context.

    http://sjlendman.blogspot.com/2010/01/focus-on-israel-harvesting-haitian.html

    the whole idea that any debate can be cut off by claiming that anything Israel does is protected by the pseudo super injunction of anti-Zionism. Whose done that? Point ‘em out and I’ll tell ‘em off.

    Sophie,

    Endless diatribes? I thought I was being reasonably brief and as detached as can be expected in a debate. Semi-detached. Compared to your own lengthy and impassioned posts (which I have read and I have followed your links and I have really tried to focus on the content).

    Of course, it is pointless arguing with either of you… Well, it is if you won’t address the points raised.

    …you see anti-Semitism everywhere…

    No, I don’t. It’s not something I think about very much. Until it gets into my face. Then I mention it.

  93. douglas clark — on 12th October, 2010 at 10:20 pm  

    SarahAB,

    It is certainly the case that Lendman is less than convincing, to say the least, in the video that Roger presents.

    On another post Lendman points out Gaza’s population is growing rapidly.

    I have a lot of time for your ideas, but that isn’t one of them :-(

    It seems to me that you could allow a population to grow whilst still culling it.

    That is not what you meant presumeably?

    Lest anyone thought you were Marie Antoinette.

  94. douglas clark — on 12th October, 2010 at 10:29 pm  

    don @ 92,

    Well, that certainly is a blood libel. He is a ridiculous and evil little man.

    the whole idea that any debate can be cut off by claiming that anything Israel does is protected by the pseudo super injunction of anti-Zionism.

    Brownie?

  95. Don — on 12th October, 2010 at 10:40 pm  

    Douglas,

    Count me out of that particular feud. And that is what it is.

    When it’s relevant I’ll comment. Sometimes.

  96. douglas clark — on 12th October, 2010 at 11:03 pm  

    Don,

    Feud?

    Well yes, so it is.

    Fact is you have no idea where you stand Don.

    You have stood on the middle ground so long it has made you a hermaphrodite.

    That is what you have become here. A person that has no known ideas, a person that is stupid.

    Someone with no opinion, someone with no idea, really.

    It is a vacant arguement that you make, it has nothing to say. You stand for nothing, you say nothing worthwhile…

    It is about you opting out when it suits you, and me, left to argue against his ideas, right, left or centre. Ideas that you appear to agree with, but are unwilling to defend.

    Thanks a bunch.

  97. Don — on 12th October, 2010 at 11:53 pm  

    Douglas.

    Feud?

    Well yes, so it is.

    Then go ahead and have it.

    Fact is you have no idea where you stand Don.
    I know exactly where I stand and damn your eyes for presuming to tell me otherwise.

    a person that is stupid.

    You want to deal with me as stupid, go right ahead. See how far you get.

    You stand for nothing, you say nothing worthwhile…

    Fuck off.

  98. douglas clark — on 13th October, 2010 at 3:37 am  

    Don,

    Well, yes, feud it is.

    You do not know exactly where you stand. Indeed. You have no idea exactly where I stand either. I give you this:

    Count me out of that particular feud. And that is what it is.

    When it’s relevant I’ll comment. Sometimes.

    No you don’t Don. You comment when it suits you. You comment when everything fits your ideas. It is not that simple, and you appear here as Peter Simple. All the time.

    Count me out of that particular feud. And that is what it is.

    When it’s relevant I’ll comment. Sometimes.

    Yeah, well. That is an idealist talking, a person that has no concept of personal responsibility, nor a clue about empathy, and a fool to boot.

    What is it about you Don, that you remain silent on the subjects that matter, and reserve some sort of right to express yourself when you see yourself as completely and totally right?

    It is what you do Don. It is what you have done since time immemorial.

    Righteousness does not equal a reasoned arguement. It is just you being correct. or summat.

    So make a case or fuck off.

  99. reminder — on 13th October, 2010 at 5:26 am  

    Aw, Douglas…

    Don’t give in to them.

    They’re just trying to wind you up so you unleash another one of those unhinged rants of yours.

    Let me save you the bother:

    I’d have thought Jews would have thought better than that. But apparently not and there you go…

    It is up to us to tell them to get to fuck.

    Don’t forget your meds!

  100. Sarah AB — on 13th October, 2010 at 7:33 am  

    Douglas – yes, it is possible to say that a population is growing yet being prevented at growing at its natural rate. Given that many Palestinians have been killed that is undeniable – but the same must be true of lots of conflicts. There’s a big leap from that to genocide.

  101. douglas clark — on 13th October, 2010 at 7:35 am  

    reminder,

    I’d have thought Jews would have thought better than that. But apparently not and there you go…

    It is up to us to tell them to get to fuck.

    Eh!

    Where or when did I say that? It is certainly relevant. I doubt it has anything whatsoever to do with this thread.

  102. douglas clark — on 13th October, 2010 at 7:49 am  

    Sarah AB @ 100,

    Douglas – yes, it is possible to say that a population is growing yet being prevented at growing at its natural rate. Given that many Palestinians have been killed that is undeniable – but the same must be true of lots of conflicts. There’s a big leap from that to genocide.

    No, there isn’t.

    I am not a huge fan of Palestinians, but the fact is, correct me if I am wrong, that the Jewish State, tends to cull uppity Palestinians when it can. Y’know those Palestinians that, perhaps, are against Jewish hegemony and stuff like that?

    Quite what their hegemony might look like is moot.

  103. douglas clark — on 13th October, 2010 at 7:59 am  

    reminder @ 99,

    I know who I am. Who are you?

    Yet another brain dead Bownie acolyite?

  104. Sarah AB — on 13th October, 2010 at 8:08 am  

    Douglas – IDF etc kill Palestinians – I assume in a range of circumstances some of them reflecting extremely badly on soldiers, some not, many confusing. But ‘cull’, suggesting this is a deliberate attempt to decrease the number of Palestinians in the area, seems a pretty tendentious word. The life expectancy in Gaza is 73 – higher than in Egypt, Turkey and Syria. That *doesn’t* mean that Israel is beyond criticism – but it is a kind of reality check to counter more exaggerated claims.

  105. cjcjc — on 13th October, 2010 at 8:27 am  

    Douglas your rants are becoming a little embarrassing.

  106. douglas clark — on 13th October, 2010 at 9:10 am  

    cjcjc @ 105,

    I am an embarrassment?

    Perhaps you prefer the Brownie shitnick?

    To whom and to why?

    Anyway, job done….

    ________________________

    I have never seen you, cjcjc, write anything other than aggressive rubbish.

    I tend to agree with folk that write here, not all the time right enough, but I respect them, rather than hold them in contempt.

    Which, correct me if I am wrong, is what you do.

    It is you that has a problem.

    Not me.

    No, siree!

  107. cjcjc — on 13th October, 2010 at 9:17 am  

    QED

  108. douglas clark — on 13th October, 2010 at 9:25 am  

    QED

    Not really cjcjc.

    You are an idiot and I defend my right to describe you as such.

  109. mostly harmless — on 13th October, 2010 at 10:05 am  

    The Israeli’s now have a debate – whoopie!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11516009

    ‘Video footage and photographs of the incident appear to show Mr Be’eri’s car swerving to the wrong side of the road and accelerating towards the boys – throwing one of them, 11-year-old Amran Mansur, into the air.’

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