Who’s really being excluded?


by Sunny
20th February, 2007 at 3:08 pm    

Making fun of Daily Mail stories (especially when Melanie Phillips is ranting) is like shooting fish in a barrel. However I want to provide an example of constant demonisation. Last week the Mail ran a story titled: Swim centre bars two-year-old girl because she isn’t Muslim, (via Osama), which was rubbish because further reading makes it clear the little girl wasn’t allowed because she had her dad with her instead of her mum. To their credit even most of the people who replied to the article saw through the Mail’s sleight of hand.

Will the Daily Mail be running stories on daddies and their little girls being excluded because elderly Jewish ladies have booked out a local swimming pool? Will it be running a campaign against people of any faith or women not being able to hire a pool for themselves? I suspect not. They need a negative story where Muslims are involved because that suits their agenda of demonisation.

There are frequently similar examples in the Daily Express (which is not even worth using as toilet paper), The Sun (remember Alton Towers?) and the Daily Telegraph these days, and all they do is make tackling religious extremism, which is the real problem, even more difficult by demonising ordinary Muslims.

Meanwhile, on Friday the BBC’s Inside Out programme did a little test to see if people in South England were willing to break the law to discriminate against Asians. No problem there. In fact the estate agents sounded as if they had requests for ‘No Asians please’ all the time.

This gives rise to the obvious question – who is really to blame for ethnic segregation? We get Rod Liddle and other ‘anti-multiculturalism’ bandwagon jumpers constantly demonising brown and black minorities for segregation. But where is the empirical proof they themselves are to blame? Instead why not focus on such discrimination, local council policies and ‘white flight’?


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  1. Clive Davis

    IN THE DAYS BEFORE THE “RACE RELATIONS INDUSTRY”…

    Short of ready cash – the rag-and-bone trade is in a slump – Albert Steptoe decides to advertise for a lodger:To let. Room in fashionable mews cottage. Clean linen. Suit professional person. Five pounds a week. No wogs.UPDATE: Sunny Hundal…




  1. Jagdeep — on 20th February, 2007 at 3:18 pm  

    Well said Hundal. You won’t get much introspection going on though, it’s simply not in their nature. There is a definite level of demonisation going on which makes things more difficult for everyone to separate genuine issues from the mass of blubber expelled by Liddle-Daily Mail types.

    Liddle is especially amusing.

  2. Jagdeep — on 20th February, 2007 at 3:32 pm  

    Wow — read the transcript of the BBC Inside Out programme people, interesting to say the least. Wonder if the Daily Mail will pick up on it.

  3. Don — on 20th February, 2007 at 5:21 pm  

    The Daily Mail story was typical Mail shite and I agree they are a pox on the planet, but the responses to the Inside Out ‘test’ were largely right, that it was not a worthwhile exercise. If they had told an agency that they wanted only moslems, they would have got the same ‘Sure, no problem’ response. Capitalism at work. There is probably a need for research to be done, this wasn’t it. They had their answer ready, they were just looking for confirmation.

  4. Jagdeep — on 20th February, 2007 at 5:25 pm  

    Really Don? If someone asked me to exclude any race or religion from applying for a job or getting a rental I would tell them to jump off a fucking cliff.

  5. Don — on 20th February, 2007 at 5:28 pm  

    So would I, but I’m not an estate agent. They should try it.

  6. Jagdeep — on 20th February, 2007 at 5:38 pm  

    Yeah that’s true — bloody estate agents!

  7. Don — on 20th February, 2007 at 5:43 pm  

    Perhaps I should elaborate. There are those who feel that working and living with people who have different cultures (for want of a better word) makes life more interesting. Let’s call them ‘progressives’ or ‘cosmopolitans’ or something.

    There are those who don’t care as lomg as they are making money. Let’s call them ‘pragmatists’ or something.

    There are those who feel awkward and uncomfortable around people who are different from themselves, but don’t want to be unfair, let’s call them ‘weak liberals’ or something.

    There are those who deeply resent anyone who isn’t of their kind. Let’s call them ‘twats’.

    I suspect that the spread among human beings is pretty even. But I’m willing to be proved wrong by proper (i.e. not cheap and easy headline seeking execises) research.

    And then thwere are cash hungry agencies which will filter out asian, white, disabled, gay, whatever the client wants as long as they get the commission.

    Employment and estate agents are hardly a national ethical bellwether.

  8. Sahil — on 20th February, 2007 at 5:48 pm  

    Add in Headhunters and recruiters!!!

  9. Jagdeep — on 20th February, 2007 at 5:51 pm  

    Love it Don — they come under a whole human type all by themselves!

  10. Gus Abraham — on 20th February, 2007 at 6:04 pm  

    Rod Liddle is the journalistic equivalent of discarded sheeps jism.

  11. Bert Preast — on 20th February, 2007 at 7:01 pm  

    Sorry, can’t see why ordinary muslims would want muslim ony swimming sessions or days at Alton Towers. It’d make them look exclusive, wouldn’t it?

  12. ally — on 20th February, 2007 at 7:04 pm  

    The Inside Out transcript is indeed interesting. I’d ask Don – do you think it’s enough to say ‘if you asked for a black or muslim candidate they would say the same’?

    It’s seductive but I’m not sure it holds.

    The same argument has always been used against anti-discrimination measures going right back to the 1976 act. It’s long been accepted that if you allow this type of ‘value-free’ discrimination to go on, the people who lose out (9/10) are not white people. It’s the old power relationship phenomenon again – the people without the power in society are the ones who need protection.

    I hope the producers hand over their evidence and transcripts to the CRE (or whatever they are called these days). Apart from anything else, 6/10 employment agents and 6/10 estate agents are apparently unwilling to discriminate. I don’t see why the offenders should get away scot-free.

  13. William — on 20th February, 2007 at 7:09 pm  

    Don #7

    Brilliantly put.

    As well let us realise that there are problems out there. The Inside Out programme still shows that people are willing to break the law, economics
    supercedes the moral issue. Also if the factors of
    dress and class are an issue in who can get change
    for money in a street it is still a sign of narrowness
    even if it is possibly not limited to one race or
    class.

  14. Bert Preast — on 20th February, 2007 at 7:15 pm  

    In the old days you’d see signs on B&Bs saying “no Irish”. As I found out, “no Irish” was actually the politically correct way of saying “no builders”. The bastards.

  15. William — on 20th February, 2007 at 7:20 pm  

    or no hippies as used to be found in some places around Cornwal and Devon although in this case I don’t blame them.

  16. Don — on 20th February, 2007 at 7:29 pm  

    ally,

    No, it’s not enough to say that, but if the question is raised it is reasonable to ask that an element of rigour go into the answer. Which didn’t happen in this case, more show-boating than research.

    I agree with the rest of your post, but I think there is a wide-ranging discussion to be had on what constitutes ‘protection’.

    And yes, prosecute the slime-balls.

  17. daily — on 20th February, 2007 at 9:11 pm  

    you think Daily Mail is bad.
    Read the racist post on BBC Asian Netwrok message board!
    Lets not throw stones at others when our own house is not in order.

  18. El Cid — on 20th February, 2007 at 10:56 pm  

    Don, Ally

    I hear what you are saying and agree with you.
    But there are many kinds of discrimination and none of us are perfect.
    For example, say one helps to rent out their mum’s villa in Spain and they get an enquiry from a group of single 20-somethings keen to go to attend a nearby dance music festival? Um.. nah I wont answer that enquiry. I’d rather hold out for a family who in my fascist mind are more likely to keep the place in good nick.
    Or say either of you had a house that you rented out to students or single professionals sharing — would you be more comfortable with females or males?
    What would you do?

  19. Nick Kasoff - The Thug Report — on 20th February, 2007 at 10:59 pm  

    Here in the United States, white flight has left some of the most historic districts of our cities in a shambles. But unfortunately, white flight isn’t always the product of blind racism. The level of violent crime in our inner cities, which are populated almost entirely by African-Americans, is truly startling. I live in one of the most diverse areas of our metro, but the vast majority of whites have moved to distant, all-white suburbs. I don’t agree with them, but I feel their pain.

    Nick Kasoff
    The Thug Report

  20. lithcol — on 21st February, 2007 at 12:03 am  

    It appears to me that it is only Asian Muslims who appear to want segregation. Why? Perhaps they want to preserve the backward ways of the areas they originated from. Gives them some control etc. That they are compared to other immigrants from the Indian subcontinent less well educated, poorer etc. says a lot about the malign influence of their beliefs founded on Islam.
    It is not only in this country that they fail to integrate and prosper as a group, as do Hindus for example. They do not even prosper in muslim dominated countries, and generally they have it in for minorities in these countries. It must be the backward nature of their religious beliefs that holds them back.
    It may be tough being from a minority, but it is doubly tough if you are a true believer in Islam stuck in whatever century pre the flood.

  21. William — on 21st February, 2007 at 12:14 am  

    El Cid

    Yes there are many types of discrimination but some are different in that they collude with irrational
    beliefs about race which are often untrue eg
    why should someone worry about renting out a
    property to someone Asian, Black etc.

    Now if I wanted to rent out my flat would I prefer a
    woman yes because they are far more trustworthy in terms of cleanliness, honesty etc of course it is not always true but the probability is higher that they would be. Would I rent my flat out to a bunch of ravers even if they were all female, no way squire.

  22. BevanKieran — on 21st February, 2007 at 12:39 am  
  23. John Christopher — on 21st February, 2007 at 12:43 am  

    The Supress and Smear (Wolverhampton) have been peddling this kind of crap for as long as I can remember. For me, it’s like water off a duck’s back. I move 120 miles down the M1 and read the same shite in The Standard. I’d now rather be dead than work for a British news organisation, just take a look at those poor bastards who worked for Channel 4 during the recent Big Brother fiasco.

    Has for the BBC, I’m not fooled by the Inside Out exercise of exposing racism in not so very dark places. I refrain from telling old ladies how to suck eggs and white people shouldn’t attempt in telling me about racism. Hell, I live with it every day. It ain’t no passing phase. Since the departure of Greg Dyke, I wouldn’t trust anything the BBC said about anything.

  24. ally — on 21st February, 2007 at 12:43 am  

    Yep. Although I don’t believe in sex discrimination in employment either. (with the usual caveats) In your examplest’s the difference between making assumptions about people be El Cid, it’s the difference between making assumptions about people’s behaviour based on their behaviour (reasonable) against making assumptions about people’s behaviour based on their identity (unreasonable.)

  25. Amir — on 21st February, 2007 at 1:17 am  

    Not again…

    (1) “Making fun of Daily Mail stories (especially when Melanie Phillips is ranting) is like shooting fish in a barrel…”

    Making fun of AIM stories (especially when Sunny Hundal is ranting) is like bonking a budgie to death.

    (2) “There are frequently similar examples in the Daily Express (which is not even worth using as toilet paper), The Sun (remember Alton Towers?) and the Daily Telegraph these days, and all they do is make tackling religious extremism, which is the real problem, even more difficult by demonising ordinary Muslims”.

    There are frequently similar examples in the Guardian newspaper (which is not even worth using as a spunk mop), the Independent (remember Yasmin Alibai Brown?) and the institutionally biased BBC, and all they do is make tackling religious extremism, which is the real problem, even more difficult by purposefully and perniciously distorting the rise of political Islam and the oppression of non-Moslems (especially Christians) under Moslem rule.

    (3) “Who’re really being excluded?”

    How predictable. “Racism” is only an offence a white person can commit, and anyone who opposes the arrival of yet more immigrants cannot but be “racist.” If Hundal had applied the same standard to his own country, he’d be forced to adopt a more nuanced, herbivorous and less belligerent tone, especially when one is so flippant in accusing others of “demonizing.” India’s multiculturalists have oppressed millions of “brown people” in such places as Goa, Bodoland, Bihar, Jammu, Jharkhand, Tripura, Chhattisgarh, Nagaland, Manipur, Kashmir, Assam, Uttar Pradesh, Andhra Pradesh, and Khalistan, not to mention hundreds of millions of Dalits living like untermenschen in India’s Caste system. But no: the only “bad guys” in Sunny’s self-pitiful mind are right-wing columnists who speak truthfully and consistently about the rising tide of race-relations bigotry and bullying – not to mention the institutional hypocrisy and ritual humiliation of white Britons. I’m sick-and-frickin-tired of New Labour’s Orwellian attempts to demoralise my race and my culture. I’m sick-and-frickin-tired of the anti-Caucasian bias in the allocation of aid and educational resources. (Among other gripes.)

    (4) “Meanwhile, on Friday the BBC’s Inside Out programme did a little test to see if people in South England were willing to break the law to discriminate against Asians. No problem there.”

    Such behaviour isn’t confined to the white race. Is it? Our mammalian species are genetically programmed to privy their own people. Think about it. If non-white teachers are necessary “role models” for non-white children doesn’t it imply that inspiration and instruction are racially-biased? If newspapers must hire Asian reporters in order to satisfy Asian readers doesn’t it imply that some people cannot write “credible” news for certain audiences? If Pakistanis demand Pakistani television newscasters and weathermen, doesn’t it suggest that they want to get information from their “own people”? Think about it: every police department in the United Kingdom has a black officers’ association devoted to explicit, racially competitive objectives. In large cities, there are associations for Asian, East-European, and even homosexual officers. All such efforts at “racial equality” are not expressions of the inherent strength of multi-racialism; they are, on the contrary, admissions that it is a divisive source of friction and hostility. No? And here’s the nub of the problem. Look at any anti-racist campaign today, objectively and dispassionately, and I guarantee that its underlying principles are not-so-dissimilar to the principles of racial realism. Both confess that it is hard to get dissimilar people to work together. “Diversity training” is an admission that a multiracial society is a liability – as opposed to a “blessing.” There are now schools and school districts completely dominated by blacks and Asians, which have race wars involving no whites at all; the “Lozells incident” in Birmingham is one notorious example, but there are constant shootings and shoot-outs between Somalis and Afro-Caribbeans in London’s ghettos (disproportionately so).

    Amir

  26. Bert Preast — on 21st February, 2007 at 1:37 am  

    Amir wrote: “Diversity training” is an admission that a multiracial society is a liability”

    yeah, I quite like that. Can I use it?

    Shame the rest of your post is such bollocks though – the attitude that only whites can be racist is fast disappearing as the whites have done rather well at eradicating racism. So instead of non-whites having a common denomiator to bind them together in defence, they now feel the necessary elbow room to indulge in a bit of discrimination themselves. This seems to be an entirely normal reaction common to all races, peoples, cultures, religions and however else you want to categorise.

    This is not to say that diversity is intrinsically a bad thing, it IS good to get a goosey at other cultures, there’s no doubt about it. But a glimpse of other cultures in all their good and bad, as you can’t help but see if you’re going to live in them, requires an invincible sense of self worth that whatever any other bugger says – even those among your own – you remain utterly convinced that you are superior in every way to the erks around and about you. Just never try rubbing their faces in it.

  27. Amir — on 21st February, 2007 at 3:00 am  

    Bert,

    (1) “…the attitude that only whites can be racist is fast disappearing.

    How do you know this? (Or is it an intuitive guess?) Don’t you live in Spain?

    (2) “…you remain utterly convinced that you are superior in every way to the erks around and about you. Just never try rubbing their faces in it

    A conservative, like myself, is a pragmatic person who is utterly opposed to abstraction and ahistorical thought. He is also aware of humanity’s flaws and the futility of social engineering. I respect many different cultures and ways-of-life; and if I moved to a foreign country, I would do everything in my power to learn the lingo and internalise its local customs. (I hope you’re doing the same in Spain? English ex-pats have a deserved reputation for drunkenness and atrocious manners.) I don’t think I’m superior to very many people. Progressives, by stark comparison, believe that they’re “morally virtuous” as human beings. So it is actually conservatives, like myself, who’re stereotyped as being morally wicked (as opposed to “self-righteous”). My prose comes across sometimes as being excessively pompous – I admit. But so fucking what? I don’t care. If Pickled Politics wants to become ideologically entrenched and hostile to dissent, so be it. Blogging, in my opinion, should be about independent and instinctive thought. Sunny Hundal writes lots of thought-provoking stuff, but yes – whenever he begins to parade a hobbyhorse – I feel frustrated and deem it necessary to respond. But don’t ever give me this crap about feeling “superior in every way” to those around me.

    (3) “This is not to say that diversity is intrinsically a bad thing, it IS good to get a goosey at other cultures, there’s no doubt about it.”

    I urge you to read and re-read this explosive article by Steve Sailer. It debunks everything you say about the desirability of more diversity.

    (4) “This seems to be an entirely normal reaction common to all races, peoples, cultures, religions and however else you want to categorise.”

    Yes it is “normal.” Thanks for agreeing with me. Hence the hypocrisy in blaming it all on “whitey.” That’s the point I was trying to make… [*sighs*]

    Amir

  28. Nick — on 21st February, 2007 at 3:22 am  

    Isn’t the Daily Mail merely reflecting the fears and anxieties of their readership?

    Pre-9/11 I don’t recall there being the raft of anti-Muslim stories (and it is inevitably Muslim, not Hindu, Buddhist or black) that one now sees everywhere.

    Isn’t it simply that pre the kick-off most “whites” as you like to call us were relatively (if not blissfully) ignorant about Islam (in particular) and its implications for our (by which I mean our all, not least the non-Muslim majority) society?

    All this talk of Islamophobia etc presupposes a kind of inherent racism, but the fact is that most of us – right or left, black or white – didn’t care much about Muslims until they kicked off. The increasing prevalance of the veil – alien to indigenous British culture – and the provocative behaviour by self-styled community leaders only serves to antagonise a fearful majority more.

    Oh you may say, these ignorant whities – what have they got to be scared about? But if so, you are simply betraying your racism and arrogance.

  29. Sunny — on 21st February, 2007 at 8:56 am  

    Oh you may say, these ignorant whities – what have they got to be scared about? But if so, you are simply betraying your racism and arrogance.

    What rubbish. There are things to get scared/annoyed off and then there are things not to be.

    Yeah it’s true most people in Britain ignored Muslims until 9/11. Hell they still do that with Sikh and Muslims – pretending sometimes like they don’t even exist in this country.

    And now that Muslims are headlines, it’s all negative… in the way that when a black person is in the headlines, it is usually something negative.

    I remember an old story on the Media Guardian about a Daily Mail reporter who was asked to drop a story profiling a rape case, after he’d worked on it for days, just because she was black.

    Racism isn’t just a media problem. For the Asians (of all religions), blacks, eastern Europeans, South Americans etc that I meet every day, it is an everyday problem that they face. Especially institutionally – where they feel powerless to respond.

    And until people like yourself and Amir, whose arrogance only confirms the hilarious attitudes that many still have on the right, understand the pain of the real people, then I’ll keep repeating it.

  30. John Christopher — on 21st February, 2007 at 10:06 am  

    My father is the most conservative black man that I know, along with my late father in law. They both brought into the much hyped notion of open markets, rampant capitalism, free enterprise and every man for himself etc,etc and by right they should have been prime candidates for joining the Conservative Party. Neither did, in fact my father in law to the consternation of some of his closest friends, ended up joining the Labour Party and even now with David Cameron’s Green Conservatives on the march, my father would think twice before having anything to do with them. Why, because too many people like our friends Nick and Amir still inhabit the conservative biosphere. These two do a dis-service to the cvonservative cause every time they open their big mouths and engage their tiny little brains.

    Amir: I live in the UK and quite frankly I couldn’t give a rat’s ass what goes in some remote village in the Indian Sub-continent. The same goes for Africa and the Carribbean. Call Sunny what you will but he has never been shy about critizing his OWN who reside in this country. But while we are on the subject of Brits abroad, could you please name one place on the planet earth where The English have colonised or settled, where they have managed to seamlessly integrate into the local indigenous community?

    Nick: The twenty or so criminals who committed 9/11 are just that, criminals. They represent no-one but themselves and in no way can their actions be representative of an entire (Muslim) community. Yet this justified US going to war and bombibg two countries back into the stone age. Worse still, the real motherfuckers who were responsible for the fall of the Twin Towers are still free to plan and scheme their evil do’s. Pre the invasion, there were no terrorist cells residing in Iraq, fact not fiction. Post invasion, Iraq is now top heavy with them both foreign and home-grown. Ignorance, arrogance and racism are terms you would well do assigning elsewhere.

  31. Chairwoman — on 21st February, 2007 at 10:22 am  

    Muslims = negative headlines
    Black people = negative headlines
    Asians = negative headlines
    Jews = negative headlines
    WWC = negative headlines
    Dogs = positive headlines.

  32. Chris Stiles — on 21st February, 2007 at 10:51 am  


    Worse still, the real motherfuckers who were responsible for the fall of the Twin Towers are still free to plan and scheme their evil do’s

    Yeah – but they are now making a real effort to find him:

    http://www.amazon.com/Wheres-Bin-Laden-Xavier-Waterkeyn/dp/1741103320/sr=8-1/qid=1172055044/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-4485719-6782436?ie=UTF8&s=books

  33. sonia — on 21st February, 2007 at 10:52 am  

    7. don – well said.

  34. Nick — on 21st February, 2007 at 11:04 am  

    “I remember an old story on the Media Guardian about a Daily Mail reporter who was asked to drop a story profiling a rape case, after he’d worked on it for days, just because she was black.”

    There are plenty of “old stories” Sunny, and I’m disappointed you should bother to wheel them out. Surely the ultimate racism was incinerating 52 Londoners on 7/7.

    But no, all of a sudden I’M the arrogant racist for questioning exceptionalism. Why the hell should anyone take notice of Sikhs, Buddhists or anyone else? We’re all British citizens, right? Or are some of us entitled to more consideration than others? What about the Jews for example, who have seen racist attacks rocket over the past few years – disproportionately out-weighing attacks on Muslims by far and increasingly carried out by non-whites. Or don’t they count because they are white?

    How about taking some of your own medicine for a change? And incidentally, I’ve never voted for the right. I was simply brought up to consider EVERYONE equal, without prejudice.

  35. sonia — on 21st February, 2007 at 11:06 am  

    an interesting thing to think about in parallel is the choice of housemates at university -i.e. the groups people choose to – or feel comfortable living in. reveals a lot about ‘segregation’. a lot of what don said in no. 7 is easy to spot, quite entertainingly. a lot of people don’t feel comfortable living with people they perceive to be different. that goes for people of all different races and where race is not a factor. (i.e. most of my ‘goth’ friends at uni would only live with other goths) some people – on the other hand – want to have as much and see as much as they can whilst they’re at uni and don’t care who they end up in a house with – or go for the ‘mixed-up’ houses and go for maximum cuisine-tastability factor.

  36. sonia — on 21st February, 2007 at 11:10 am  

    chairwoman – :-)

    but aren’t the media generally only after negative headlines in any case? something that will ‘probe’ their readers. race/minorities are only aspects of that. countries which have people where say practically everyone is the same race – their national media look for other ‘factors’ to invoke fear and horror or some other sort of sensationalism. seems to me. the more people talk about race the more the media pick up on it as well. this whole race relations thing – the media love it.

  37. Sahil — on 21st February, 2007 at 12:12 pm  

    Good point Sonia #36. Uni is actually quite a good experimentation ground for examining self-segregagtion. When I was in Uni, how people quickly assembled into either people from the same place, same high school, same class, or same international upbringing was so revealing about British attitudes (By that time I had only lived in London for about 2 years). Quite a disturbing wake up call (not really racist or classist, just how people so quickly seperate themselves out). Interestingly same thing also happened in my MSc. It doesn’t seem to dissapear with maturity.

  38. Jagdeep — on 21st February, 2007 at 12:40 pm  

    What about the Jews for example, who have seen racist attacks rocket over the past few years – disproportionately out-weighing attacks on Muslims by far and increasingly carried out by non-whites. Or don’t they count because they are white?

    We’ve got lots of Jews who hang out here with us Nick old boy — I wonder if they have anything to say about your insinuation that Sunny in some way marginalises them or wilfully ignores prejudice against them ‘because they are white’.

  39. sonia — on 21st February, 2007 at 12:47 pm  

    yep sahil across the board you could see that – a large section of asians are guilty culprits when it came to self-segregation.

  40. Jagdeep — on 21st February, 2007 at 12:49 pm  

    Two Asians becoming friends = self segregation

  41. sonia — on 21st February, 2007 at 12:49 pm  

    though i think religion seemed to play a big role in that ..ooh i can’t share with you cos you’ll bring men back to my house. ooh you’ll put pork on my kitchen. ooh you’ll foul my space. ( fair enough for them if that’s what they don’t want!) it seems to be a bit like the attitudes expressed on inside out.

  42. sonia — on 21st February, 2007 at 12:51 pm  

    heh heh, like putting up ads on the uni notice board in chinese or hindi so no one else can read the ads anyway!

    ‘you’re not eligible for interview for this room in this house based on your gender and race.’

  43. Nick — on 21st February, 2007 at 12:52 pm  

    Jagdeep, old boy… so? If one can only now be limited to discussing one’s own ethnic group, then why bother with this post?

  44. sonia — on 21st February, 2007 at 12:55 pm  

    it’s useful being aware of ‘ethnocentrism’, especially if one is trying to be on the lookout for ‘racism’.

  45. Jagdeep — on 21st February, 2007 at 12:59 pm  

    Nick, it was a rhetorical question. Your insinuation by example that Sunny is implicitly guilty of marginalising Jews because they are white is bollocks of an over-ripe and over cooked type. You quite literally don’t know what you are talking about — I mean that not in a blase pejorative offhand way, I mean it quite literally; you actually don’t know what you are talking about.

    Time to put that straw man to bed and calm down.

  46. Sahil — on 21st February, 2007 at 1:03 pm  

    “it’s useful being aware of ‘ethnocentrism’, especially if one is trying to be on the lookout for ‘racism’.”

    Definately!! The point about the Uni post Jagdeep wasn’t the obvious: that people who have more in common should not become friends, rather how easily and quickly it happens when people are dumped in an alien environment. Same thing also happens in white-flight situation, people simply do not recognise their environment and seek a place which shares the same supposed values. Uni is just interesting because, you’d expect kids to be more flexibly minded and seeking new friends and experiences, plus how people orgnise groups in the 1st year, shows a lot of dynamics about group behaviour, including, self-segregation.

  47. Sahil — on 21st February, 2007 at 1:09 pm  

    There is also an interesting article by Bob Shiller about inequality, discontent, and trust. Basically all the things that end up leading to social breakdown, quite an interesting read:

    http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/shiller46

  48. Jagdeep — on 21st February, 2007 at 1:10 pm  

    I guess we’re being self segregating by hanging out on this blog then guys?

  49. Sahil — on 21st February, 2007 at 1:12 pm  

    Pretty much, but there are many diverse opinions here. Far more than other blogs, plus the debates usually are pretty civilised.

  50. Jagdeep — on 21st February, 2007 at 1:12 pm  

    Phew!

  51. Nick — on 21st February, 2007 at 1:40 pm  

    Actually I “literally” DO know what I’m talking about Jagdeep because I come here quite often, which was why I was surprised Sunny had come over all Islamophobia Watch all of a sudden – it seemed most out of character.

  52. Chairwoman — on 21st February, 2007 at 1:49 pm  

    Sunny is all things to all Picklers!

  53. Jagdeep — on 21st February, 2007 at 1:51 pm  

    Nick, you just displayed how you don’t know what you’re talking about — comparing Sunny to Islamophobia Watch is an example of that hysteria. In fact the comparison is really pathetic. In fact he’s been hoisted on those moron’s petards in the past. So accusing him of being as one with them begins to edge into comedy.

    Sunny’s original points on this thread are valid. Try and distinguish them from the blubber and appreciate what he’s saying.

  54. Nick — on 21st February, 2007 at 1:55 pm  

    No – I know, that was my point. But you clearly have no interest in considering it. I’ll leave you to hurl abuse at someone else. I have to go and be hysterical elsewhere.

  55. Bert Preast — on 21st February, 2007 at 1:56 pm  

    Amir #28,

    (1) “the attitude that only whites can be racist is fast disappearing.” – I know this because although I live in Spain I still remember how to read English. In the last few years we have seen prosecutions for racially aggravated attacks on whites by non-whites, something that simply didn’t exist 20 years back.

    (2) “if I moved to a foreign country, I would do everything in my power to learn the lingo and internalise its local customs. (I hope you’re doing the same in Spain? English ex-pats have a deserved reputation for drunkenness and atrocious manners.)”

    Wahey \o/

    Straight into the sweeping generalisations there. I live in an area fairly heavy with Brit ex-pats, and whatever idea of our reputation you have it’s not largely shared by the local Spanish especially not those who remember what the area was like before our arrival. There is no dole or indeed any benefits at all until you have spent at least a full year working and paying your taxes, which I think goes a long way to explaining the welcome attitude to immigrants in general. If you’re known not to be asking anything from the host country you don’t give people any reason to complain.

    For myself, I’m fluent in Spanish – self taught, because of course if the council was paying to teach immigrants Spanish then the locals would get pissed off – and married to a Spanish girl. I’ve gone native in every way, except that I still park my car in a civilised manner.

    Belief in your own intrinsic superiority is important to get on in a new culture – you have to accept all people have stereotypes and if those stereotypes get on your tits then you’ll be bimbling round in a constant haze of hostility and defensiveness. I’m a walking stereotype and proud of it, a big red-faced tattooed fair headed Englishman replete with scars and missing teeth. I love the experssions on people’s faces when they realise the apparent piratical drunken hooligan before them has learned to talk. I take the piss out of their dismal dress sense (mine’s no better, but I don’t bother trying), their outpouring of emotion and obsession with their mothers, they fire back at my alcohol intake, refusal to admit to emotions and latent homosexuality. So everyone’s happy.

    (3) That article shows the dangers of what happens when immigrants are perceived as not pulling their weight. As I said above, when that doesn’t apply diversity is great fun.

    (4) Why didn’t you just make that point then?

  56. John Christopher — on 21st February, 2007 at 2:01 pm  

    One question. Wouldn’t the world be as dull as ditch water if we were all the same? The history of the white man by contrast to multiculturism, has been more like that practiced by “The Borg” in Star Trek the Next Generation. Resistence was futile for the natives of North and South America, Australia and New Zealand. Multiculturism was forced upon them from the barrel of a gun, which sums up rather well the objectives of some who who would want to see the demise of a humanity based on all nations.

  57. Jagdeep — on 21st February, 2007 at 2:01 pm  

    Nick, don’t be such a drama queen. I havent hurled abuse at you. Just pointed out how wrong you are on this issue.

    You know since I’ve been hanging out here I’ve seen Hundal be accused of being:

    * Islamophobic bigot

    * Hindu hater

    * ‘Self-hating Sikh’

    * Anti-British apologist for terrorism

    * Apologist for Anti-white racism

    * Ignorer of prejudice against Jews

    I suppose I shouldnt worry about all that, but in the main his thoughts on things accord with mine, and it kind of makes me wince when all those things get thrown around.

  58. raz — on 21st February, 2007 at 3:47 pm  

    Jagdeep,

    You missed out ‘Sinister goatee wearer’

    That one is true, at least :)

  59. Captain_Savaho — on 21st February, 2007 at 4:57 pm  

    we all know racism against whites exist…everyone knows it…the difference is that it is not yet fashionable to be offended by it

  60. El Cid — on 21st February, 2007 at 4:58 pm  

    “fluent”

  61. Bert Preast — on 21st February, 2007 at 5:09 pm  

    El Cid – si, hablo con bastante fluidez aunque admito que escribo solo bastante para pedir licencias de obras y poco mas. Pero como he dicho, nunca he tenido un classe de Castillano en todo mi vida. He aprendido la lengua memorizando 10 palabras cada dia de un diccionario Collins Ingles-Espanol. Hasta que he conseguido bastante para empezar con acostando tus mujeres, por supuesto. Despues he aprendido mucho de ellas – dejame, quita, largate, fuera, etc. Tu lo sabes.

  62. El Cid — on 21st February, 2007 at 5:15 pm  

    putting spanish women to sleep? you mean tucking them in or something more lethal? is this the famous marbella ripper?

    ;)

  63. Bert Preast — on 21st February, 2007 at 5:17 pm  

    Alli has tocado mis cojones, tio. Que no soy de Marbella. :raging:

  64. bananabrain — on 21st February, 2007 at 5:21 pm  

    nick,

    i don’t think anyone could accuse sunny of ignoring anti-semitism, however you are making a rather large assumption that all jews are “white”. certainly a lot of us (particularly in this country) are, but a rather large number worldwide are not. as a “bombay iraqi” jew, i certainly wouldn’t pass unnoticed at a BNP meeting, although i probably would anywhere from portugal to afghanistan. certainly members of my family have been called “pakis” in the past.

    either way, i think you should calm down, i’m sure you’re a reasonable chap really.

    amir, i think you’re sounds a bit hysterical on this thread, unfortunately, because i really enjoy your posts and seem to agree with you about an awful lot a lot of the time. try and resist the temptation to wattle quite so furiously…

    from a fellow sinister goatee wearer…

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

  65. Bert Preast — on 21st February, 2007 at 5:24 pm  

    Is there any man here who doesn’t wear a sinister goatee?

  66. bananabrain — on 21st February, 2007 at 5:26 pm  

    sounds = sounding, of course.

  67. El Cid — on 21st February, 2007 at 5:28 pm  

    the almeria ripper?

    i once had a goateee, but someone thought it would be funny to call me cunt face, so it came off

  68. Bert Preast — on 21st February, 2007 at 5:29 pm  

    Soy Benalmadenense. Something even the natives can’t pronounce when drunk.

  69. El Cid — on 21st February, 2007 at 5:34 pm  

    constantinople y sus constantinopolitanitos

    bet you can say that! see ya later

  70. Nick — on 21st February, 2007 at 10:54 pm  

    bananabrain – I’M not the one who started the colour thing – that was my whole point, i thought it was pathetic. Personally i’m olive-skinned, which could be due to my bit of Jewishness, or maybe the French bit. i don’t care, but it seems that a lot of other people on this blog do… and what’s there to calm down about? just because i’ve critisised sunny doesn’t justify the “hysteric” response of his defenders on this blog. In the space of an afternoon I’ve been called an immature, hysteric, regressive twat by (i suspect) highly educated people for whom this passes as a kind of humour – enables them to let off steam maybe from their uptight real lives. it’s quite sad really.

  71. douglas clark — on 22nd February, 2007 at 3:02 am  

    Nick,

    Either you are with us or against us. This was a silly remark:

    “Surely the ultimate racism was incinerating 52 Londoners on 7/7.”

    It was not racism, white people and brown people died. It was indiscriminate murder. It was a ridiculous act of nihlilism. It was stupid wee boys believing a fantasy. It was older people corrupting younger people. It was disgusting. Given the fact that they must have known that there were Muslims on that underground, it cannot be described as racism. Insanity, possibly.

    I keep coming back to the fact that folk are willing to be led; it disgusts me. Muslims are not exempt from that criticism. They do seem to be easily led. Unto death. It is very, very stupid, and very, very sad.

  72. Nick — on 22nd February, 2007 at 8:02 am  

    Douglas, was it not? Muslims meant to murder non-Muslims. If white (or black for that matter) youths beat a white Muslim to death because of identity, that is regarded as a racist/ religiously motivated crime. This hate crime was no different – and everyone here knows it, they just don’t want to face it.

  73. bananabrain — on 22nd February, 2007 at 9:06 am  

    nick,

    you said:

    “What about the Jews for example, who have seen racist attacks rocket over the past few years – disproportionately out-weighing attacks on Muslims by far and increasingly carried out by non-whites. Or don’t they count because they are white?”

    the syntax of your sentence suggests that you consider jews a “white” group. and just in the interests of clarity and plain english, could everyone please take note that since muslims can also be any colour, an attack on muslims or by muslims which is motivated by the fact that anyone concerned is muslim, is not a racist attack, but an attack motivated by *religious* prejudice – which is, of course, equally bad. NB: an anti-semitic attack can be characterised as either racist (as we are also an ethnic group) or motivated by religious prejudice – except, i suppose, technically, if it is a convert that is being attacked, but frankly i think that’s why you need a special word for jews, i.e. anti-semitism. equally incidentally, we should also note that anti-semitism does not apply to “semites” in general, that being a linguistic fallacy manipulated for political ends.

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

  74. Nick — on 22nd February, 2007 at 9:25 am  

    Bananabrain, I didn’t bring up colour. That was the point of my original post – that “whites” had a right to feel agrieved too. Only here it seems that they are the only people without “colour” and therefore any right to feel anything. Which kind of reminds me of the snobbery that drives the white working class into the arms of REAL racists, but never mind. It would spoil the dinner party.

  75. sonia — on 22nd February, 2007 at 11:16 am  

    I think Nick has a valid point in no. 75 which is often ignored.

  76. Tasneem Khalil — on 22nd February, 2007 at 12:33 pm  

    make tackling religious extremism, which is the real problem, even more difficult by demonising ordinary Muslims.

    Exclusion and alienation. I am in 166% agreement with your observation.

  77. Sunny — on 22nd February, 2007 at 4:58 pm  

    because I come here quite often, which was why I was surprised Sunny had come over all Islamophobia Watch all of a sudden – it seemed most out of character.

    Why Nick, because you only expect me to bash fellow brown folk for their racism all the time? I’m sorry if I gave you that mistaken impression but you really need to deal with it.

    I’m against any sort of bigotry and racism etc. Sometimes I highlight bigotry and stupidity amongst brown folks, sometimes within white folks. Sometimes with Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims and Jews, and sometimes with Christians.

    I’m not Islamophobia Watch but that doesn’t mean I don’t highlight instances of bigotry against Muslims. In other words I’m not going to follow anyone else’s agenda – only my own.

    I hope that clarifies.

  78. lithcol — on 22nd February, 2007 at 5:03 pm  

    Wow! Sunny reveals his true mindset ( post 75 ). I am sure that Kulvinder with his hardcore libertarian views will be mightily upset.
    By the way I did not use the term “fuck off” first, and I regarded it as mildly insulting when you told me to do so (post 26 ). Indeed I apologized for my use of the term “tosser” in relation to Kulvinder (post 36 ).
    I should really have used the term “anarchist” in relation to Kulvinders world view. He continuously uses the word statist, where I would use the word society.

  79. Jagdeep — on 22nd February, 2007 at 5:11 pm  

    I am in 166% agreement with your observation.

    Only 166%?

    but never mind. It would spoil the dinner party.

    Too late for that Nick; the pheasent was awful today, and the quails eggs a little too tart for my taste. Sunny has a long way to go before he can call himself a true dinner party luvvie.

    Someone pass the brandy.

  80. Nick — on 22nd February, 2007 at 5:50 pm  

    Sunny – I just don’t get why you’ve come over all… testy. But never mind.

  81. Sunny — on 22nd February, 2007 at 6:27 pm  

    Not being testy, and apologies if it sounds like that.

    But I do get bemused when readers come here, like Amir, get all defensive when I point out white racism, but slap me on the back for pointing out brown racism.

    Both exist, I hate to point this out to everyone, and actually white racism is a bigger issue especially in institutions where people of other colours have no one willing to listen to their concerns.
    Hence my annoyance at your ‘why have you come IW all of a sudden’ reference. Islamophobia is a problem, as is anti-semitism, regardless of who other points it out. I cannot avoid talking about them.

    Sunny has a long way to go before he can call himself a true dinner party luvvie.

    Bastid! And here I was eagerly awaiting my invitations :(

  82. Osama Saeed — on 22nd February, 2007 at 8:31 pm  

    1. My auntie actually took an estate agent in Glasgow to court and put them out of business because of their “no Asians” policy.

    2. Well worth citing Dr Ludi Simpson’s research at Manchester University about minorities moving into suburban “white” areas as soon as they are economically able.

    3. Also worth noting that local authorities are still “dumping” new migrants in the same old areas. Would be interesting if they decided to branch out a bit.

  83. Amir — on 23rd February, 2007 at 2:57 am  

    Sunny,

    “And until people like yourself and Amir, whose arrogance only confirms the hilarious attitudes that many still have on the right, understand the pain of the real people, then I’ll keep repeating it.”

    I’ve been racially abused on four occasions (thrice in Manchester, once in London); I know all too well what it feels like to have your humanity stripped bit-by-bit by a pack of skin-bigots or religious thugs. So don’t you dare lecture me on “understanding the pain” of others. (Still, I’m not going to wallow in the juices of my own self-pity… wouldn’t want to imitate your journalistic style now would I?) For the sake of posterity, let me remind you and your loyal readers of my response to the Jade Goody affair:

    The manner in which Jade and Co. have expressed their contempt for Shilpa Shetty is absolutely and unequivocally disgraceful.

    Yes, it IS racist [*except* for the mimicking and caricaturing of her Indian accent, which would fall under the category of “cultural bigotry.”]

    But more importantly, it is a stark and sinister example of spitefulness and thuggish harrying. This, in my opinion, is more deserving of opprobrium than the hackneyed racist clichés.

    Okay. So how did you respond…?

    [Shilpa Shetty] is also an actress who knows that crying on television, which she has to do every film, instantly brings you sympathy. Put two and two together people! Don’t think there isn’t an element of acting here. She has been paid over a £100 grand to star in the show. I think she can handle this.

    Says it all really, doesn’t it?

    On this thread, in particular, none of you so-called “anti-racists” have answered my points directly. Instead, you choose to indulge in emotional blackmail and a stream of guttersnipe abuse and ad hominem insults. Typical.

    I’ve always believed in the cultivation and preservation of colour-blind institutions and I vehemently support the notion of a meritocratic economy. Anti-racist quangoes, in my opinion, have abandoned these principles; instead, they have begun to mirror the racial paranoia of white nationalists.

    To be totally honest I’m getting a little concerned about my own motives for reading your political blog; which, in my opinion, has reached the point of diminishing returns (no doubt it’s the beautiful combo of Asian and Jewish women which keeps me here). Compared to the likes of Cranmer, Tim Worstall, and the Devil’s Kitchen, your intellect pales into insignificance (as does mine), and your views on race/culture/identity are out-of-touch with the majority of Britons. If you want any indication of where the Left (and Right) is headed in Britain and in Europe, I suggest you read this. The last laugh is on you. ;-)

    Remember? I rejected multiculturalism when it was unfashionable to do so. Many of my closest comrades, at the time, thought it was a sure sign of kooky conspiracism, rampant xenophobia, and an unconscious fetish for Enoch Powell. Now it is YOU, not me, who looks increasingly deluded and out-of-touch with the British zeitgeist. On questions of race and national identity, I consider myself a “progressive” and you a “reactionary.” ;-)

    [Note to Bannabrain: Thank you for the prescient advice. I’ll try to calm down.]

    Hugs and Kisses,
    Amir

  84. Sunita Arora — on 6th March, 2007 at 1:14 am  

    Hi

    I was one of the investigators on Inside out. I asked for change for 20p for the phone. When I wore Indian clothes minus head scarf, I had a great response and people were lovely. As soon as I put on my chunni around my head, the reaction was like night and day. No eye contact, hands waved in my face to push me away, aggressive behaviour…scarf on..scarf off. Go figure! It took me aback and really upset me more than I thought, given that I knew it was a job. But many other issues came out of the programme. It tested all of our opinions and created a lot of passionate debate amongst ourselves. It also made the estate agents featured look at thier practices and that’s a good thing surely.

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