EDL members go to New York protest


by Rumbold
12th September, 2010 at 8:45 pm    

Members of the English Defence League (EDL), perhaps confused about what their moniker actually means, have been in attendance at the anti-mosque protest in New York. Richard Bartholomew reports:

A few specific groups and individuals could be identified; LGF shows a picture of several English Defence League members, and TPM picture 11 shows EDL activist Kevin Carroll (I previously blogged on Carroll here) [UPDATE: Apparently Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, who heads the EDL as "Tommy Robinson", was refused entry at JFK Airport].


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  1. sunny hundal

    Blogged: : EDL members go to New York protest http://bit.ly/aaTDou


  2. Faria Khan

    Haha! Don't Panic Online – 'News Report' of the wk :) RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : EDL members go to New York protest http://bit.ly/aaTDou


  3. Hot About New York

    Pickled Politics » EDL members go to New York protest
    http://safe.mn/waj


  4. Naadir Jeewa

    Reading: EDL members go to New York protest: Members of the English Defence League (EDL), perhaps confused about w… http://bit.ly/a8bNQ5


  5. Nicholas Stewart

    EDL members go to New York protest http://j.mp/bNWBMQ – English Defence League thugs turn up at 'ground zero mosque' protests. WTF.


  6. Simon Sayer

    RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : EDL members go to New York protest http://bit.ly/aaTDou




  1. Kismet Hardy — on 12th September, 2010 at 10:57 pm  

    busman’s holidays ain’t what they used to be

  2. Andrew — on 13th September, 2010 at 8:47 am  

    Since when was New York in England!?

  3. Don — on 13th September, 2010 at 11:30 am  
  4. earwicga — on 13th September, 2010 at 12:13 pm  

    Ha! Well done Don :)

  5. Andrew — on 13th September, 2010 at 4:30 pm  

    Perhaps they made a wrong turning? :)

  6. KB Player — on 13th September, 2010 at 6:03 pm  

    Let’s hope some fat dude in a baseball cap is shouting “Whaddya doing in my country, you wonky-toothed Limey assholes?” at them.

  7. abdul abulbul emir — on 14th September, 2010 at 11:35 am  

    Mrs A says

    Have you noticed that now the West is running out of money it’s become a lot nastier ?

    More and more like the third world in fact

    And I thought it was going to be like paradise coming here Abdul…..

  8. Dalbir — on 14th September, 2010 at 3:01 pm  

    Mr. abulbul

    The west (well I know the US and UK for definite), have always had their dank third world like parts, they’ve just cleverly managed to generally keep that side of themselves under the radar because it contradicted the image of ‘brilliance’ they wished to shock and awe us with.

    Gun totting, crack smoking 14 year old Mancunian anyone?

  9. douglas clark — on 14th September, 2010 at 5:46 pm  

    Och Dalbir,

    You are such a tit.

    The dank and dark side of UK culture is a given. You want me to spell it out? White culture, brown culture, black culture. They all have criminals.

    And it is not kept under the radar. Do you ever watch that thing in the corner of your room called a television? It is there for all to see. The bad that people do.

    And it ain’t all racist, most of it is just sick.

    Your example:

    Gun totting, crack smoking 14 year old Mancunian anyone?

    Where did you get that from? I kinda doubt it was from walking along the mean streets of Chorlton-cum-Hardy

    No-one here wants to ‘shock and awe’ you.

    That is a tragic, yet completely typical example of the wanky hyperbole of all your arguements. I think it is a personality fault.

    You know exactly where you got that phrase from, and you ought to know a heck of a lot of white people protested against it in this country.

    Me included.

    It is offensive to me to have my protest against Gulf War Two stuck in my face as if my failure to influence events was my fucking fault.

    What did you do about it Dalbir? Did you protest too? Or did you just write the words ‘shock and awe’ in the tide somewhere, knowing they would disappear?

    You, sir, are a cheap polemicist.

    So, in an attempt to make you a better human being:

    _________________________

    Get it through your thick head that no individual is perfect, and certainly, no group of people – what you’d describe as a community, and what I’d describe as a clan – are in any way perfect.

    You don’t get me coming on here apologising for Thomas Hamilton, do you? Or pointing out that what he did was trivial compared to Mumbai?

    No, you bloody well don’t.

    I can recognise ugly bastards within my own clan if you will, without having to cross reference it to yours, or anyone elses’ come to that. Ugly is as ugly does.

    Whatever you think to the contrary.

  10. Censorship = Fear — on 14th September, 2010 at 7:58 pm  

    And:
    -
    Of course the extreme left ignore that the extreme left countries have always had the most stringent of border security; of course that was not to stop people getting into the leftist paradise, but to stop people escaping from it!!
    -

  11. Dalbir — on 15th September, 2010 at 1:12 am  

    But Dougie you miss the whole point….

    Knocking down received notions of superiority from certain quarters down (a few pegs at least).

    It’s like CBT…

    Plus don’t be under any illusion, knobs within my own ‘tribe’ get the same treatment.

  12. douglas clark — on 15th September, 2010 at 3:02 am  

    Dalbir @ 10,

    Well, yes.

    But why do you think I found it necessary to say what I did at 9?

    It is your received notion of superiority that I am against. Let it be clear here, I have the greatest admiration for a lot of folk that write here, and colour is not an issue for me. It seems to me that it is an issue for you.

    It seems to me that your ideas of white superiority are actually offensive to me. I don’t have a clue about white superiority. I am white. Am I superioir? Not noticeably, and not so’s I’d want to be.

    I’d like to think that folk read what I have to say on here and just take it as a given. Perhaps that is naive, but frankly I read comments here without filtering them through some sort of race agenda.

    I do not have that sort of filter.

    I have no such ideas. I like folk that agree with me, I dislike people that don’t. I have written along those lines for the entire time I have posted here.

    I am, sort of, in favour of women, in favour of Rumbold, in favour of the general idea of this web site.

    So, it cuts both ways Dalbir. I will stand up for what I think this place is about, I will not surrender easily to some sort of Johhny come lately re-definition of what Sunny created.

    It is ideas of exclusivity, like those you’d like to impose, that make or break friendships, not ethnicity or gang or group membershiip.

    I would never join a club that would have me. I think it was Groucho Marx that said that, and I agree,

    Our very good host puts up with me, as you should too.

  13. douglas clark — on 15th September, 2010 at 7:56 am  

    Our very good host, of whom I have the highest respect.

    If he ever gets around to standing for parliament, I will, personally, deliver leaflets for him. And I am SNP and he is Labour. As a general rule, we hate each other.

    But I think he would be an asset for every one of us in Parliament, no matter the party politics. So, I’d like to see him elected.

    I am completely serious about this.

    How does that work out in your world Dalbir?

  14. Dalbir — on 15th September, 2010 at 5:00 pm  

    It seems to me that your ideas of white superiority are actually offensive to me. I don’t have a clue about white superiority. I am white. Am I superioir? Not noticeably, and not so’s I’d want to be.

    We keep going in circles.

    Don’t be so sensitive. If I condemned say, Al Qaeda for being arseholes, and I mean Al Qaeda and their ideology, I would expect the average intelligent Muslim to understand that I do not mean them.

    So why should I expect any less from general white people when I put the boot into white supremacists.

    I’ve explained this umpteen times now. Seems like you just ain’t listening.

  15. Don — on 15th September, 2010 at 5:19 pm  

    Dalbir,

    You have indeed explained your position several times. That doesn’t mean everybody is persuaded by your explanation.

  16. Ravi Naik — on 15th September, 2010 at 5:44 pm  

    So why should I expect any less from general white people when I put the boot into white supremacists.

    Oh, you started talking about the West (#8), and now you clarify that you meant white supremacists. Easy mistake to make, uh Dalbir? :)

  17. Jai — on 15th September, 2010 at 5:54 pm  

    That doesn’t mean everybody is persuaded by your explanation.

    I am, for the record. Dalbir has repeatedly clarified his stance on numerous occasions over a considerable length of time and, as a result, his position is very clear indeed.

    He is opposed specifically to racist white supremacists, not white people in general. Given the number of times he has clarified this (frequently coupled with detailed explanations which confirm his stance and which frankly should have been unnecessary in the first place), the misplaced allegations repeatedly being levelled at him are as inappropriate as — for example — a Muslim person accusing someone of being bigoted towards Muslims en masse just because the other person is hostile towards militant Islamist extremists.

    There obviously are people who are prejudiced towards white people in general, just like there are people who are prejudiced towards Muslims in general (and yes, I know that there are white Muslims too), and that this is the case even if they deny it. However, Dalbir does not fall into this category.

    I don’t agree with Dalbir 100% of the time, and he has politely mentioned that he doesn’t always agree with me either, but he is certainly not what some people here have accused him of being. I think it would be best if the strawman arguments aimed at him from certain quarters are dropped.

  18. Refresh — on 15th September, 2010 at 6:03 pm  

    Dalbir,

    the dank and dark underbelly actually supports Douglas Clark’s point of view (and mine). And I know it supports yours too, except you are not articulating it very well. You fall into the trap of generalising, one step removed from stereotyping.

    In a nutshell, you may recall that Douglas Clark stated very clearly (way back), that he and vast sections of the populace of the UK did not benefit from colonialism. Not overtly anyway. That is fundamentally true.

    The forces that went to rape and pillage for the East India Company, and latterly for the Emperor did not do so to improve the lives of the child chimney sweep.

  19. Rumbold — on 15th September, 2010 at 9:22 pm  

    Dalbir:

    As others have pointed out, you frequently conflate white supremacist/white people in general, as pointed out by numerous people on this and other threads. Thank you or your clarification though, but you can see why people get confused.

    Jai:

    I think you are being rather misleading. Clearly there is an issue with Dalbir’s words; people as diverse as Don to Douglas, Kulvinder to KJB have commented on it. To dismiss that as a ‘strawman’ is to miss the point by a wide margin. I suggest you re-read the comments again and really think about them.

  20. douglas clark — on 15th September, 2010 at 9:39 pm  

    Jai & Dalbir,

    I am not a particularily sensitive person. But I do, kind of, take exception to being lumped in with some sort of white supremicst agenda. Which, it seems to me, is the casual racism that you are both indulging in.

    Perhaps, before you post, you should consider just how, exactly, your words will go down with the likes of me?

    And, for the record too, it is infuriating to be grouped in with white supremacists, when you both know I am nothing of the sort.

    It is the casual, generalised aggression that annoys the heck out of me.

    Dalbir should be a lot clearer in who, precisely, he is targetting with his diatribes and you Jai, shouldn’t defend that sort of loose language. Dalbir shoots from the hip, and only clarifies afterwards. Or had you not noticed that Jai?

    Just saying.

  21. Dalbir — on 15th September, 2010 at 10:19 pm  

    I think the issue stems from my belief that that the white supremacist impulse still exists throughout western society. Yes, it is attenuated, in some cases, significantly, but it’s still around. It will significantly weaken soon, of that much I am sure, but probably not before raising it’s head in one, ugly, last ditched attempt to stay potent.

    We have recently seen its effects on foreign policy here. It is still a strong feature of the corporate world.

    We are living in interesting times in that these deeply rooted ideas are now being seriously challenged in a number of ways such as the emergence of strong eastern economies, the successful resistance against better equipped western forces in Muslim lands and little things here, like certain ethnic kids outdoing the indigenous in education by miles.

    The point isn’t that all white people are supportive of the supremacist notions or engage in it. But when it manifests itself, average Joe is powerless to do anything about it because, as we saw with the protest against the war, they are simply ignored. I think whites secretly feel a degree of powerlessness in relation to what their leaders do. This is on a macro level (such as government) as well as on a micro level (such as say in a corporate environment). This is why I think people get away with racially motivated (or at least influenced) misdeeds, because the other white people are either to dumb to see it happening, ignore it purposefully for fear of being targeted themselves and just go along with the norm.

    I’m estimating it will take about another 70 – 100 years for the silly ideas of British/white supremacy to really ‘fall over’. Once a few generation of whites see that other non white nations are doing better than them and the fascinating, but evil, brainwashing this island had necessarily promoted and engaged in order to keep its empire becomes obviously ridiculous, we will see big change.

    What we have learned is that it just takes a relatively small amount of people in positions of power with dodgy world-views to make certain ‘cultures’ a live force in any organisation or group of people. Tony Blair and Bush are extreme but text book examples of what can happen when tossers gets in power. Parts of west still seem to cling to pseudo-imperialistic practices. This even applies to so-called lefty land with its obsession with righting the wrongs of other societies. I can imagine they will be preoccupied with their own societies problems pretty soon.

    Is it the Chinese who say “may you live in interesting times”? Well, whoever it was/is – we certainly are. I can’t wait to see a new order of things myself. Change is long overdue. I’m just wondering if certain western governments will restrain themselves from trying to use a perceived military technological advantage to keep ‘on top’ in future. I mean, whilst Obama is in power, no evil will be done, but when those evil fuckers on the other side get back in the hot seat, there is no telling what they’ll push us into. And for the record, just so you know, you might call them Republicans, but to me they are the very epitome of what I speak about when I say, white supremacist, obnoxious, evil bastards. That’s how I see them. It’s hard for me not to think white people who fail to admit to this are somehow living in denial, if not being straight up deceptive.

    And you can throw all your bullshit accusations of racism etc. at me, I couldn’t care less. In the end I know I am not the one who is trying to dominate or oppress anyone.

  22. Ravi Naik — on 15th September, 2010 at 11:15 pm  

    This is why I think people get away with racially motivated (or at least influenced) misdeeds, because the other white people are either to dumb to see it happening, ignore it purposefully for fear of being targeted themselves and just go along with the norm.

    And you can throw all your bullshit accusations of racism etc. at me, I couldn’t care less. In the end I know I am not the one who is trying to dominate or oppress anyone.

    Indeed, you know. So tell me, which white group does Rumbold, Don and Douglas belong to? The one that oppresses, the one that is too dumb to see it happening, or the one that ignores racism for fear of being targeted? :)

  23. Don — on 15th September, 2010 at 11:20 pm  

    I think whites secretly feel …

    Damn, busted.

  24. douglas clark — on 15th September, 2010 at 11:32 pm  

    Dalbir,

    You do the very best you can to taint every white person as a racist:

    I think the issue stems from my belief that that the white supremacist impulse still exists throughout western society. Yes, it is attenuated, in some cases, significantly, but it’s still around. It will significantly weaken soon, of that much I am sure, but probably not before raising it’s head in one, ugly, last ditched attempt to stay potent.

    Which side of the barricade do you think I’ll be on? I seem to recall having had a swing at Lee John Barnes alongside Jai and other folk I respect.

    Not every white person you meet in the UK is a Republican, nor are they all members of the BNP or the KKK. Indeed some of us are a tad amazed to be associated with the likes of them. Some of us actually took Burns’ words to heart:

    Then let us pray that come it may,
    (As come it will for a’ that,)
    That Sense and Worth, o’er a’ the earth,
    Shall bear the gree, an’ a’ that.
    For a’ that, an’ a’ that,
    It’s comin yet for a’ that
    That man to man, the world o’er,
    Shall brithers be for a’ that.

    Which is right up there with ‘Imagine’ as the way I think.

    Sorry to disappoint you, but I am one of these dreadfully boring people that thinks there is only one race, the human race. (Well, if you are going to live your life via a cliché, lets at least make it a decent one…)

    It would be quite intelligent for you not to isolate people like me when you write your stuff here or elsewhere.

    I don’t even think it is particularily progressive to think that racism is wrong. But that cuts both ways Dalbir.

    And you can throw all your bullshit accusations of racism etc. at me, I couldn’t care less. In the end I know I am not the one who is trying to dominate or oppress anyone.

    Who is trying to dominate whom here? I most certainly am not.

    _________________________________

    It is interesting that you propose that social liberals are to be excluded from commentary on the ills of the world at large. It does not require this society to be perfect, and we would probably disagree on the definition of that anyway, for folk to aggregate around ideas of social justice elsewhere. I have been a member of Amnesty International for a heck of a long time and to have it described, as you do, as some sort of

    so-called lefty land with its obsession with righting the wrongs of other societies. I can imagine they will be preoccupied with their own societies problems pretty soon.

    misses the point of any sort of common humanity, and specifically attempts to exclude external voices from any debate whatsoever. Is there nowhere, nothing, nada outside your own front door that you feel even slightly worth condemning? This web site repeatedly comments on so called ‘honour killings’. It is something I feel strongly about too, yet you would prefer it if it was not mentioned?

    Well, no. I disagree with that approach.

    If the UK had an Empire, rather than vice versa, it gave up on it close on fifty years ago. I do not really understand why it is an issue for you, or for the diminishingly small group of white racists either. You will recall, perhaps, that the BNP did rather badly at the last election?

    You write in a way that is designed to alienate folk. Fair enough, you won’t be the first and you won’t be the last, but please stop assuming other people, me for instance, can’t see through your polemic.

  25. Dalbir — on 15th September, 2010 at 11:46 pm  

    It isn’t even worth debating with you Dougie, I can say not every white person is a racist a thousand times but it just doesn’t get into your head….

  26. persephone — on 15th September, 2010 at 11:54 pm  

    “ I know I am not the one who is trying to dominate or oppress anyone” and

    “Who is trying to dominate whom here?”

    Spot on. An element of projection here.

    Dalbir, you oppress in your own way – the list includes:

    - caucasians (aka whitey by you & later clarified by you as really meaning white supremacists)

    - Sikhs who dare criticise the little ‘ole community

    - women who dare use the internet – I remember a choice remark about my parents being worried about me talking to strange men on the internet at night (gosh I’m doing it again) and an abusive comment about a female bloggers site

    - a brown person saying they see themself as british

    - those you see as coconut’s kow towing to whites because they do not have your worldview

    Yes colonialisn was wrong. But the solution was not to join them.

  27. douglas clark — on 16th September, 2010 at 12:05 am  

    Dalbir,

    I am asking you to think how you will be perceived before you hit that ‘Submit Comment’ button.

    That is all.

  28. Don — on 16th September, 2010 at 12:14 am  

    you might call them Republicans, but to me they are the very epitome of what I speak about when I say, white supremacist, obnoxious, evil bastards.

    As supremacist, obnoxious, evil bastards they are certainly in the running for epitome. And we have an even more evil mutant branch proliferating as we speak. But it ain’t a one horse race, as you have sometimes cursorily recognised.

  29. Refresh — on 16th September, 2010 at 12:23 am  

    Dalbir, I think you’re stance is self-defeating. Whilst there is a lot in your analysis which I could find myself agreeing with, your conclusions betray a considerable lack of confidence.

    You use the term ‘white supremacy’ as a flamethrower, when what you are actually talking about is the victorian era justification for empire. The evidence is clear, european empires almost invariably consisted of lands inhabited by other races. And inculcating a church-going population into supporting empire resulted in places like Rhodesia and South Africa.

    Inculcating the pews in the past is the equivalent of conditioning populations through the mass media today.

    We know that you can condition people to be racist as much as you can turn them away from it. A constant bombardment of negative messages is all you need. For that, access to and control of key assets in the media is essential.

    It took the challenges of two world wars, and centuries old struggles of the poor and a new ideology courtesy of Karl Marx before we really start seeing changes. Although some would say empire did not really go away, it simply passed the baton to one of its richer colonies.

    And add to that, the observations you make about educational performance, about other economies racing ahead; and I would say don’t miss out the curry and balti houses, schools and trade union membership: people started seeing each other in a new light – face to face.

    My concern, primarily, is that you are falling again into the trap of comparing performance of one group against another – when you should be horrified that there is a dark and dank underbelly in a society as rich as Britain. And that there will be a bigger one in India, in China and wherever else we can hold up as a success. You have all the passion and wit to play a part in turning these things around.

    In principal what the last 50 years have shown, emphatically, that race is not a factor in a person and people’s ability to develop (or destroy) themselves. It has also shown that there is a class of people (I’d like to call them a part of the Jetstream) who have no regard for a person or people as long as they can continue to amass power and wealth for themselves. Bush is a member of the Jetstream and Blair has become one, and there will be others from India, China and so on. It is these who are the modern day shareholders of the East India Company.

  30. Rumbold — on 16th September, 2010 at 8:45 am  

    Thanks Ravi, Persephone and Refresh.

    Dalbir:

    This is what frustrates me about you. You have some good points to make, and rightly point that there is still some residual racist attitudes around, that don’t necessarily reveal themselves in the form of the BNP/EDL (for example, those people who still feel the need to talk to ‘community leaders’ as representative of the whole group).

    The one thing which this site stands for, above all else, is treating people as individuals. We all bring our background to the site, which informs and distorts our arguments, but we are still all individuals, not representatives of a group,.

  31. Jai — on 16th September, 2010 at 10:56 am  

    Dalbir,

    I am asking you to think how you will be perceived before you hit that ‘Submit Comment’ button.

    This bit of polite, friendly advice from Douglas is absolutely spot-on. Refresh’s eloquent posts above are also superb.

    As I’ve said before, remember that this website isn’t a private conversation, and on top of that it’s occurring over the internet, with all the scope for misunderstandings which that can involve. So, it’s always a good move to take both of those factors into consideration when deciding what to write here.

    There are going to be well-meaning, decent, and extremely intelligent people like Don, Ravi, and Persephone. Like all of us, however, they are not infallible, and they may therefore occasionally misread what you say. Simultaneously, the onus is of course also on you to be as precise as possible and (more to the point) be nice to them too. Human nature being what it is, people can sometimes suffer an element of cognitive dissonance about our actions and intentions if they think we are hostile towards them personally, especially if we have ever given them tangible reasons to think so, even if in reality this isn’t necessarily the case.

    Conversely, there are going to be others with their own vested interests and unspoken underlying motivations (and/or distorted perceptions, for various reasons) who will disingenuously refuse to grasp your real stance and will stubbornly continue to level accusations at you, irrespective of what you say and irrespective of how many times you say it. You cannot constructively reason with them because they are not necessarily being entirely honest themselves in the first place.

    The bottom line is the following: Try not to give ammunition to genuinely decent people who may accidentally misunderstand you, and simultaneously bear in mind that there are others who will use whatever you say as ammunition against you because they have their own agenda to push.

    The major factor in influencing whether another person accurately grasps what someone says (in any situation in life) is that they have to be ethically willing & psychologically able to grasp it. If they are, great, if not, well….You can’t please all of the people all of the time, so beyond a certain point don’t bother wasting your time.

  32. Ravi Naik — on 16th September, 2010 at 11:43 am  

    Jai, I think there is a difference between ‘not grasping’ and ‘disagreeing’. Dalbir admitted he sees whites in three shades: the oppressors, the too dumb to see it, and the cowards. That’s the no heart, no brain and no courage – when your world-view resembles a Hollywood classic, then something is seriously wrong with you.

    Dalbir’s language is unacceptable, not just his views on a race, but his utter disdain for other types of people – as Persephone mentioned above.

    I understand he had a rough upbringing and subject to serious racial abuse, which leads him to see racist people everywhere. But Dalbir’s views should be challenged, and one hopes he will learn to see people as individuals rather than making gross generalizations about people because the way they were born, or their choices of life later on.

  33. Kismet Hardy — on 16th September, 2010 at 12:11 pm  

    Ha ha. ‘I see racist people’

  34. Refresh — on 16th September, 2010 at 12:25 pm  

    ‘I understand he had a rough upbringing and subject to serious racial abuse, which leads him to see racist people everywhere.’

    I think we deserve a post on or from victims of racist attacks, its not something we’ve ever really looked at. And I can see there will be many regulars who have never suffered it and know of it only third hand. And there will be others who are too young to know of the scars these vile acts have left.

    For example, I know of an 8 year old nephew of a close friend who was physically attacked by 3 racist thugs so badly he could not pass water unaided for weeks.

    I had forgotten, or took Dalbir’s telling of his experience as just a passing comment when perhaps we should have engaged with it.

    Ravi, I would say your rush to judgement is unfair.

  35. dmra — on 16th September, 2010 at 12:38 pm  

    Kismet Hardy

    “Ha ha. ‘I see racist people’”

    Well since you already posted on this site your opinion that “The French are racist” I think it’s pretty clear that you do.

  36. Refresh — on 16th September, 2010 at 12:50 pm  

    ‘For example, I know of an 8 year old nephew of a close friend who was physically attacked by 3 racist thugs so badly he could not pass water unaided for weeks.’

    He would now be aged about 42.

  37. earwicga — on 16th September, 2010 at 1:00 pm  

    Kismet – 7th Sense?

  38. Kismet Hardy — on 16th September, 2010 at 3:27 pm  

    Oh dmra, are you really going to pick apart my stab at comedy?

    Tedious as it is that I must explain, the context was: stories in the news. If I may bore myself reminding you, the newsflashes were footballer sleeps with prostitute, politician is smarmy, french are racist.

    When there’s a news story about the french, it’s usually to say they’ve done something racist, no?

    Dude, this is a politics site, and by that definition, generalising is totally allowed. When someone says conservatives believe in this that and that, how irritating would it be if someone said: well, not ALL conservatives.

    Let me give you an example:

    Statement: Islamic Terrorists hate westerners and want them dead.

    Are you telling me there isn’t one guy among all the terrorists who doesn’t really hate westerners at all but only part of the gang because his older brother is into it and he wants to look cool among his own peers?

    So how ludicrous would it be of me to counteract that statement by saying ‘not ALL terrorists’

    I urge you to get off that high horse of yours from where you think you have the slightest grasp of my perceived prejudices, and with all due respect sir: va te faire foutre

  39. dmra — on 16th September, 2010 at 3:51 pm  

    Kismet Hardy

    “When there’s a news story about the french, it’s usually to say they’ve done something racist, no?”

    Well no actually? The vast majority of stories I see about the French in the media are nothing to do with racism. Which is why I queried your statement that “the French are racist” in the first place.

    I agree with you that the statement “Islamic terrorists hate westerners and want them dead” is hardly controversial and does not need qualifying. However if I were to say that because some Muslims are terrorists who hate westerners therefore all Muslims are I think that you, and most of the other posters here, would, quite rightly, be at my throat in seconds.

    How about some more examples. Would it be more acceptable if I said that ” the Nigerians are all e-mail scamming crooks” or “Somalis are all pirates”. How about “the Iranians are religious fanatics”?

    Somehow I doubt it so clearly not all generalising is acceptable even on the web.

    Perhaps you could take the time to expand on why you think it is acceptable to make damning generalisations about some groups but not others?

  40. Kismet Hardy — on 17th September, 2010 at 1:37 pm  

    You’re using the word ALL. I didn’t use the word ALL because it’s superfluous on a politics blog, but seeing as it’s buzzing in your bonnet, I will endeavour to use it ALL the time.

    In return, can I ask you to see the context? Because not ALL footballers sleep with prostitutes and not ALL people who go by the initials dmra pick a flippant joke apart until it lies bleeding and crying in shreds

  41. dmra — on 17th September, 2010 at 3:06 pm  

    “and not ALL people who go by the initials dmra pick a flippant joke apart until it lies bleeding and crying in shreds”

    Well possibly that’s because this person going by the initials dmra thinks that “it’s not racism because I was just joking” wasn’t an adequate defence when it was used by the likes of Bernard Manning or Jim Davidson and still isn’t one when its used by those going by the name of Kismet Hardy

  42. earwicga — on 17th September, 2010 at 3:10 pm  

    drma – you are going too far. Kismet isn’t racist. End of.

  43. Dalbir — on 17th September, 2010 at 3:49 pm  

    Indeed, you know. So tell me, which white group does Rumbold, Don and Douglas belong to? The one that oppresses, the one that is too dumb to see it happening, or the one that ignores racism for fear of being targeted?

    Allow me to change one word in the statement you quoted to clarify, just so you might understand:

    “This is why I think people get away with racially motivated (or at least influenced) misdeeds, because the other white people are USUALLY to dumb to see it happening, ignore it purposefully for fear of being targeted themselves and just go along with the norm.”

    In any case, I still stand by my last post, with the correction above. There are white people that are outside of what I mentioned above. There also nonwhites who go along with this type of stuff too. The softer form of racism I’m talking about. I’m guessing you’re one of them whether this is wittingly or unwittingly. Consciously or subconsciously.

    Jai,

    The major factor in influencing whether another person accurately grasps what someone says (in any situation in life) is that they have to be ethically willing & psychologically able to grasp it. If they are, great, if not, well….You can’t please all of the people all of the time, so beyond a certain point don’t bother wasting your time.

    I hear you. But that being said I will never fail to call people who are sellout, co-opted tools, exactly what they are. They can get used to it. And for a so-called site that claims to be a platform for ‘South Asian’ views, this place needs to learn to accept this a bit more, without getting their proverbial ‘Alan Wickers’ in a twist. Even if the message isn’t wrapped up in flowery ‘spin’ which they may have become accustomed to?

    I think where I differ from the white liberals here is that they seem to view racism as being practically on its deathbed (if I’ve understood their position correctly). I, however, don’t quite think we are anywhere near that by a long way, and in any case I don’t think this type of thing is something that just disappears forever. I’m sure there were Jews thinking Germany was a great place for a few generations before world war 2. Imaging that all is well and good (or getting close) and that once we have gotten over some sort of racial ‘hump’, we land in new pastures permanently is naive. And I’m just making the point, I’m not suggesting something similar to what happened in Europe not too long ago, would definitely happen here before anyone suggests it.

    In the battle against racism in the UK I’ve seen a lot of progress at ground level. Frankly speaking, in many places, I think a large measure of that is down to a fear and experience of violent retribution. This has been supplemented by legislation. However, I think progress in this particular domain is offset by an entrenching of closet racists within organisations. This softer form is infinitely more difficult to nail and very easy to hide.

    I would say to so called white liberals who claim to be ‘with’ us against such stuff – open your eyes a bit more. We aren’t doing to bad a job on the street front with BNP/EDL type pricks for the moment. You need to lessen your focus on them. Combating this other more insidious type of racism is where you could really be of help. You need to engage in this a LOT more.

    Plus this fight will be infinitely more difficult than the other as it involves challenging long standing power structures and people you are around every day. People who are subtle, not lumbering EDL/BNP type fools. I’m not surprised that people balk at the challenge given that and would rather ignore it. But if you aren’t going to face up to this stuff amongst yourselves, I find it hard for you to justify the ‘concern’ at the apparent injustices of our own society through misogyny and patriarchy etc. etc.

    Outside people here insist on introspection and the facing of certain unpleasant ‘truths’ about our variations of brown society. If this is the case, I demand the very same from them too.

    Maybe the truth is that we could all do with some deeper social change?

  44. Dalbir — on 17th September, 2010 at 3:54 pm  

    PS – Most of the stories from France seem to be about Sarkozy’s wife. You’re busted Kismet….

    lol

  45. Ravi Naik — on 17th September, 2010 at 4:47 pm  

    The softer form of racism I’m talking about. I’m guessing you’re one of them whether this is wittingly or unwittingly. Consciously or subconsciously.

    What sort of ‘soft racism’ are you getting from me, Dalbir?

    …is offset by an entrenching of closet racists within organisations. This softer form is infinitely more difficult to nail and very easy to hide.

    Combating this other more insidious type of racism is where you could really be of help. You need to engage in this a LOT more.

    It helps to be more specific about how to fight something that, according to you, doesn’t manifest itself. That is, if you are really serious about this.

  46. dmra — on 17th September, 2010 at 5:05 pm  

    Earwigca,
    “drma – you are going too far. Kismet isn’t racist. End of.”

    Maybe he isn’t racist but he made a racist statement. When I challenged him he argued it was OK to say what he did because he seen stories proving what he said was true in the papers or was ok because it was only a joke.
    If an EDL member had made a similar statement about immigrants or muslims and then tried to defend it using those arguments what would you be calling them?
    All I’m arguing for is consistency.

  47. Kismet Hardy — on 17th September, 2010 at 7:20 pm  

    Your constant limpet to my every post is getting tiresome.

    So here’s what I think dmra.

    I think you’re a cock.

    To honour our new understanding let me verify:

    I don’t think ALL people who go by the initials dmra are ALL cocks

    Just you

  48. dmra — on 17th September, 2010 at 8:29 pm  

    Kismet Hardy,
    I’m sorry that you seem to have taken exception to me pointing out that a statement in which a negative stereotype is applied to an entire nation or ethnic group could be construed as racist.
    I really don’t care what you think about me or what names you call me. The thing is I don’t make a habit of taking the views of people who make racist comments seriously.

  49. Arif — on 17th September, 2010 at 10:03 pm  

    Interesting discussions.

    I think its great if we can draw each other’s attention to what we find problematic in people’s arguments (and jokes), at least if it becomes an opportunity to correct ourselves and/or be corrected on our interpretations.

    I think many of us know each other well enough to do this, drawing each other to (problematic) discourses which we perceive to promote, derive from or be linked to racism or racist representations, and distinguish these problematic ways of speaking from the intentions of people who use them.

    We all say things which can be taken the wrong way or have implications/histories which we are unaware of. Basically we all can benefit from consciousness raising.

    That is, we could if we don’t get defensive.

    But we will get defensive if we feel we are being judged and labelled for our unselfconscious, well-meaning behaviour.

    Those doing such judging and labelling risk being judged and labelled in return.

    And we put back progressive community building.

    I agree with Jai – the effort of being careful about what we say should be something empowering, like learning a new language to communicate with new friends. Thinking more clearly about what we mean to say and saying what we mean in a way which is understood.

    But I know that isn’t everyone’s bag!

  50. Arif — on 17th September, 2010 at 10:04 pm  

    * “drawing each other’s attention” in third parag.

  51. persephone — on 18th September, 2010 at 12:10 am  

    Refresh
    That would be an interesting idea for a post.

    Jai
    I don’t believe a lot of Dalbirs comments are open to misunderstanding from the reader.

  52. Don — on 18th September, 2010 at 1:54 am  

    …because the other white people are USUALLY to dumb to see it happening, ignore it purposefully for fear of being targeted themselves and just go along with the norm.”

    Yeah, that’s fine now.

  53. Kismet Hardy — on 18th September, 2010 at 8:58 am  

    Anyhoo, even if I were to stand by my flippant remark ‘The French are racist’, which I most certainly don’t, it wouldn’t be a racist comment. It’d be an ignorant one.

    And, for arguments sake, considering I’m a brown bloke that never plays the race card but has experienced racism in France (but not as much as in Italy but, interestingly, none whatsoever in Germany), it qualifies me to say: In my experience, the French tend to be a bit racist now and again. Which makes it an opinion, albeit based on limited experience, on a par with women who say black men have big dicks because the black men they’ve had just happened to have big dicks, or someone who only meets Liverpudlians at festivals and is thus suspicious of Liverpudlians around their tent, or anyone saying Asian mums make the best curries when they haven’t had the chance to be poisoned by mine.

    Ignorance can be cured through experience. Prejudices are a different kind of ailment that are slightly harder to remedy.

    But I like this site because it tries.

    x

  54. dmra — on 18th September, 2010 at 9:08 am  

    Kismet Hardy,
    I’m not so that the comment “the French are racist” isn’t, or can’t be, racist but I’ll settle for an acknowledgment that it was an ignorant one.
    In light of your paragraph about ignorance and prejudice I’m even inclined to believe that it was an unfortunate choice of words rather than a proof of genuine ignorance.

  55. Kismet Hardy — on 18th September, 2010 at 9:14 am  

    Heavens be praised. Now can you go do your thing to Frankie Boyle? :-)

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