Dealing with riots and rape in Birmingham


by Sunny
24th October, 2005 at 5:08 am    

I was hoping not to write more on the Birmingham issue, but tensions aren’t likely to ease anytime soon. More disturbances have been reported after the riots.

During the disturbances, shops were attacked, cars set on fire and hundreds of police in riot gear were confronted with bricks and bottles. Four people were stabbed, including a 23-year-old black man who later died in hospital. A police officer was shot in the leg with a ball-bearing gun, one of 12 gunshot incidents.

I’m not going to mince words here. Certain so-called “representatives” of the Afro-Caribbean community seem to be using this rumour to further their own race agenda and bigotry without working for community harmony. I used to have some respect for Ligali in the past – but that has all gone out of the window now. What a fucked up state of affairs.

It apparently comes down to this – hair and cosmetics. I had this email forwarded to me over the weekend.

It’s a known fact that black hair companies in the usa sold out the uk black people by making asians (indians) the main and sole distributors of hair products. it’s also a well known fact that this distributor, called dooa which are indian owned sell their fellow indians warehouse products at discounted prices so that the black business buckle under there unreasonable warehouse prices.

So now you know why black shops don’t last long. Anyway this is not the real reason behind this email, read what happened in Birmingham’s Afro Carribean district a few days ago and supprisingly it was’nt even worth a mention in the local news paper. Black people need to realise that they are been shitted on by Indians who now supply them with the very food they eat, their cosmetics and health care. the asian businesses will buy whatever they can from a black person but unfortunately struggle when they try to buy a black mans soul because still they do not have one.

Emails like this are never worth repeating, but I use that to illustrate the reasoning. Some forums also display the same logic.

Resentment is being felt by many over the success of Asian businesses, specially at those selling products aimed at the black community.

Added to that is tension. Are Asians racist? Hell yeah. We know racism exists in every community and that has led to simmering resentment being built up. But is this the right way to let it all out?

Now let’s look at Ligali’s assertions.

1) Did the crime take place? According to Ligali’s FAQ, the police have started investigating. Well, they would do that anyway, it does not actually prove anything.

2) So why the boycott? Well apparently, because all the allegations were that it was an Asian business (spread by Ligali of course), therefore they think it was right to have a nationwide boycott. Yeah, I can see the logic. They pompously claim:

…the majority of leaders from the Asian business community failed to express a single message of condolence or indeed even offer to help ascertain whether the allegations are in fact true or a hoax. The economic boycott reversed that position and successfully fostered a level of co-operation which was not previously present.

What a load of crap. The rumours started before any word came out of the attack in the media, and the so-called boycott did not foster any more cooperation. The police would have investigated anyway.

3) Then comes the racism

We like many in the African British community believe that if the alleged victim had been in an African owned business there is no possibility whatsoever that eighteen African men would have felt emboldened to sexually assault a child in what we can only describe as an act of horrendous child gang rape.

Ahhh right, so only white or brown men are capable of perpetrating such acts.

It is also interesting how they accuse the Asian community of a “wall of silence”, but on their news article reporting the death of the African man, there is no mention of the rioting, the looting or the violence.

Oh and because some Asian businesses have come forward with condolences, “Calls for the boycott have now been limited to Asian hair shops where the alleged incident took place.” No reason given, they just want a boycott.

I have a suggestion. We and Ligali want the facts. Why not track down the girl, and if she is in a state to talk – explain everything to the police. Why get obsessed by the boycotts and the continuous regurgitation of rumours?

Going forward with community relations
There is no point even negotiating or dealing with organisations such as Ligali if we are to have better trust between Asians and the African communities across England. Racism exists on either side – how is this crap supposed to help?

The idiot who runs the shop isn’t any better with his racism, even if the police accept they found no evidence to support the rumours. The Times is having a field day publishing comments in their article to add fuel to the fire.

But we must remain firm. The racists should not win, whether they are white, black, brown or whatever. Am I going to treat my black friends any different? No fucking way. Am I going to boycott black-owned shops? Bullshit. We need more confidence building measures, not finger-pointing.

If a rape has taken place then it is definitely a heinous, paedophiliac crime. The girl needs everyone’s full support and the guys who did this need to be hung by the balls.

Why do people seem to be looking for a repeat of this?


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  1. DesiPundit

    [...] Pickled Politics has the lowdown on the Black-Asian riots in UK. [...]




  1. Sunny — on 24th October, 2005 at 5:21 am  

    I would also like to point this out. Any comments seen as xenophobic towards any racial or religious group will be deleted. I will be watching this discussion carefully. People such as Iceman, hysterics, Stuart etc – please don’t bother coming back. You will be deleted anyway.

  2. faddy — on 24th October, 2005 at 5:35 am  

    It will be really sad if this situation has all been triggered off by two rival hair cosmetic shop owners as suggested here… Either way the truth needs to come out about what really happened to the girl, and only then will both communities be able to move on..

    It makes me sick to think how people can live like ANIMALS and walk around in family neighbourhoods with guns and baseball bats and terrorise innocent people.. Black or asian, there is no excuse.. Vigilantism will not solve a single thing, exactly the same way community meetings and demonstration wont either… if a rape has taken place, then the girl should come forward and the police should investigate… FFS a person was killed on saturday night, and it has now been reported on BBC that last night another person has been shot… This shit is driving both communities 20 years back, and will do nothing to improve our future… Violence is not the answer… these wannabe gangster should all be handed down maximum penelties for their actions… we shouldnt be divided by these muppets, but should stand side by side… the racists will be sitting back and sniggering at our own fuck ups!!

  3. leon — on 24th October, 2005 at 9:58 am  

    Good post Sunny, well said. Glad to hear also those shit stirrers will not be tolerated on here too.

  4. anonymous — on 24th October, 2005 at 10:05 am  

    So I take only liberal-elitest comments are allowed?

    Anyone saying anything other than its all the host countries fault due to poverty etc or simply it being simple “misguided fellows” is not allowed?

    I think the arrogance of Sunny is disgusting. I would agree outright racist comments would warrant deletion but it seems liberal facism is just fine.

    How pompous you are!

  5. leon — on 24th October, 2005 at 10:17 am  

    How cowardly are you!? If you want to come one here with your fake outrage at least have the guts to put a name to your inane posting…

  6. Jay Singh — on 24th October, 2005 at 10:41 am  

    The black gangs decided to hold every Asian accountable for this alleged rape. This is a case of black racism and hatred of Asians.

    What it boils down to is this – a new precedent has been set – holding an entire community to account for the crimes of individuals. So presumably the next time a black man commits a crime by the reasoning of black leaders the racial group to whom the victim belonged can undertake random lynch mob style violence against individuals and property of black people.

    All the newspapers have confirmed that the Farcroft Pub was attacked – at least a mile and a half away from Lozells – and a man stabbed there. An Indian man was shot at the Uplands pub nearby and anoher stabbed – simply because they had brown skin. This was done by marauding gangs of black racists with bloodlust to kill any Asian they came across.

    No Asian group has ever organised this kind of violence against black people as a result of the many crimes that black people have commited against Asians. This is as a result of a commited and directed campaign of hatred and rabble rousing by pirate radio stations and black websites to kill and destroy Asian property and business.

  7. Jay Singh — on 24th October, 2005 at 10:44 am  

    Black youths entered two Indian pubs and shot and stabbed Indian men having a pint. The Farcroft pub has released CCTV pictures of black youth pointing guns in the faces of Sikh and Hindu men drinking in the pub to the media. I have heard that the Hindu Mandir on Heathfield Road was attacked. I heard this on the Sonia Deol show just now from a listener – if anyone can confirm this please let us know.

    If Asians places of worship are being attacked this takes the whole situation to another level.

    This has brought Asians together in a way that hasnt happened in a long time in Birmingham – Sikhs, Muslims and Hindus know that they are all targets of this violence and ironically it has brought a form of Unity.

  8. Jay Singh — on 24th October, 2005 at 10:49 am  

    Councillor Atwal of Handsworth Wood is on the Sonia Deol show now and has stated that a Gurdwara was attacked by black youths. I want to get confirmation of this if anyone can let us know if this is so please post here. The Farcroft Pub in Rookery Road was targetted for attack and murder and there is a large Gurdwara on that road.

    As I said, if Sikh, Hindu or Muslim places of worship are being targetted this whole situation has been elevated to another level – it seriously risks spiralling out control.

    Racist violence directed at Asians and their business and property – attacking Gurdwara’s, Mandir’s and Mosque’s is something else completely.

    This has to stop now.

  9. j0nz — on 24th October, 2005 at 10:56 am  

    Jay Singh,

    I believe both communities need to show restraint, and cool down the rheotric. There are certainly pereceived injustices on both sides of the fence, but lets not forget we have a legal system in place to deal with injustices. People causing violence in our communities should feel the full force of the law.

    I would urge all involved 100% co-operation with the police.

  10. Jay Singh — on 24th October, 2005 at 11:00 am  

    jOnz

    This is a campaign of concerted racist violence targetting Asians – indiscriminate lynch mob violence targetting Muslim, Sikh and Hindus, their property and shops and lives.

    My rhetoric is cool. I am just stating facts.

  11. Jay — on 24th October, 2005 at 11:05 am  

    Story from the sun

    The owner of the shop, who does not want to be identified, went voluntarily to the police.

    He said: “I have done nothing wrong yet my staff and I are the target of this unbelievable campaign. It started with accusations that we had been making lewd suggestions to women, then it was claimed I fondled a young black customer. Before I knew it the allegation was that I had assaulted two girls.

    “By last week I had become a monster who instigated the 19-man rape of a 14-year-old.

    “I truly do not know where this has all come from — I can only assume it was initiated by people who cannot stand that an Asian man is selling African products.”

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005490271,00.html

  12. Jai Singh — on 24th October, 2005 at 11:08 am  

    Just for the sake of clarification I thought I should mention that Jay Singh who has just commented on here is not actually me — however, he has made some excellent points so it looks like he and I are on the same wavelength [along with having similar names, of course ;) ].

    I also agree that attacking religious places is a very bad idea indeed and seriously risks provoking retaliation from the more belligerent hot-headed Asians in the area.

  13. Jay Singh — on 24th October, 2005 at 11:08 am  

    jOnz

    I agree with you 100% about the need for restraint and leaving it to the police to deal with these instances. I am just talking about how pirate radio DJ’s (who are being investigated by West Midlands Police on suspicion of inciting racial hatred) whipped up hysteria and hatred in a Rwanda style fashion speaking about how Asians needed to be ‘taught a lesson’ and how websites talked about the need to kill and burn Asians out of their shops.

    I am talking about elderly and middle aged Sikh men in pubs in Handsworth having guns held to their heads, shot and stabbed by racist gangs. The more I talk the more I hear about these situations – shops in Handsworth being looted and attacked, Asian men being punched in the face.

    On websites I have read about how Asian women should be raped and Asians attacked without discrimination.

    The idea that this level of targetted violence is commensurate or explicable by the allegations of rape is an obscenity. The idea that Asians are collectively to blame for the sexual assault is a racist and fascist action. The counterexample would be black people being targetted by lynch mobs the next time a black man commits a rape.

    I am cool but people need to state what is what.

  14. Rohin — on 24th October, 2005 at 11:09 am  

    Jay, I don’t think it’s all one-way traffic. Whilst gangs made up of black people may have made the first move, gangs made up of Pakistani men have been making trouble as well. So it’s become tit-for-tat.

    I haven’t heard about the particulars you mention, but yes most of the news services are reporting that a mosque has been attacked (which is all the more foolish when a large proportion of the black community is Muslim). I don’t agree about the fact that places of worship getting attacked means it’s far more serious – frankly I’d be more concerned if my shop was attacked than my mosque or temple. It’s all the same – any attack on any innocent’s house/shop/place of worship is unacceptable, whoever the owner/patron is.

    If black websites are being lop-sided, I would imagine Sonia Deol and her erudite callers are just as biased. I heard a BBC report on the radio this morning which explained that the whole situation is a result of community leaders on both sides having ulterior motives:

    “These ‘leaders’ live out in 5 or 6 bedroom houses in the suburbs, they have no idea what happens in the ghettos”

    The Asian men interviewed reported Asian and black guys making trouble.

  15. Rohin — on 24th October, 2005 at 11:12 am  

    About the places of worship being attacked – as Jai said, yes of course it does increase the likelihood of yet more retaliation. So on that point, we are in agreement Jai and Jay (I’ve been waiting for the time you both ‘met’ for a while now!)

  16. krazie — on 24th October, 2005 at 11:13 am  

    Unity yes, but at what cost?

    I can see the far-right rubbing thier hands in glee at the prospect of a full blown race riot.

  17. leon — on 24th October, 2005 at 11:20 am  

    Good point Krazie but we have to try because the alternative is not tolerable.

    Agreed about the BNP, they’re loving this, give it a few weeks and they’ll leaflet the “white” areas about how bad us brown folk are…

  18. leon — on 24th October, 2005 at 11:22 am  

    And in case anyone doubts the BNP etc are happy with this take a look at stormfront: http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=240537

  19. j0nz — on 24th October, 2005 at 11:22 am  

    Jay,

    There does appear to be a large amount of Jamaican style aggression on the streets of Birmingham, there has been for some time. This needs to be dealt with swiftly and harshly by the courts and by the police.

    However I don’t believe for one second that they’re aren’t Pakistani gangs going round Birmingham causing trouble. I wouldnt be surprised if 80-90% of the violent ‘asian’ gangs are from foreign hardline Muslim backgrounds, i.e. Pakistan & Afghanistan. Correct me if you think I’m wrong.

  20. Jay Singh — on 24th October, 2005 at 11:25 am  

    Rohin

    This situation was started by pirate radio DJ’s and websites organising ‘activists’ to hold all Asians to account for the alleged crime. Asians as far from Lozells as Handsworth have been attacked shot and assaulted – elderly and middle aged men and women. This has been a directed and co-ordinated lynch mob campaign to carry out collective guilt punishment of all Asians. The idea that Asians should be burnt and killed because of this alleged rape is at the core of the situation. We need to let the police deal with this rape and leave everything else – but the ‘activists’ decided to burn Asian businesses and hold guns to the heads of elderly Indian men drinking in pubs.

    And Rohin, as much as you may not like it, the fact is that if Mosques, Gurdwaras or Mandir’s are attacked and targetted the whole thing is suddenly taken to a higher level of offence – it’s as simple as that. I dont like it, but that is the truth.

    It boils down to that – Asian’s lives and properties being targetted indiscriminately because Asians are ‘guilty’ because of this rape. But the counterpoint is that black people are attacked as a whole the next time a black man commits a rape. This is obscene.

    I am in agreement with you about the need for restraint and how some Asians have retaliated. But lets not lose sight of the fact that Asians have never carried out a sustained campaign of lynch mobbery of black people because of the crimes of black criminals who are individuals.

  21. Jay Singh — on 24th October, 2005 at 11:30 am  

    jOnz

    I dont see what your point is. There are gangs of all racial groups who act lairy and youths who call trouble. This is something else all together. This is gangs running into pubs and putting guns to the heads of Sikh men, Pakistani women on Hamstead Road being assaulted, generalised mob violence against Asian individuals and property in one evening across Lozells and Handsworth. In one night black lynch mobs attacking Asians of all religions and shooting stabbing and burning.

    This arose as a result of ‘activists’ not letting the police do their job – these ‘activists’ wanted Asian blood.

    This is straight up racism and fascism.

  22. leon — on 24th October, 2005 at 11:31 am  

    Jay Singh, the fact is that Ligali is monitoring this site and quoting from it to further its agenda, that said I think we should all consider wisely what we post.

  23. Jay Singh — on 24th October, 2005 at 11:36 am  

    The main thing is that no repeat is allowed to take place. Every single community leader needs to be out there calming things. Police presence should be firm and constant. Community activists from all backgrounds should be on hand to talk to any crowds that build up to start trouble. The police enquiry should be allowed to run its course – in fact it should be expidited fast and the girl at the centre of the allegation should be treated with utmost care and attention. This needs to be done with utmost priority.

    No more violence should be allowed to recur.

    Once things have cooled down we can carry out a full audit of the pirate radio DJ’s and ‘activists’ who decided to incite people to batter, burn, stab and shoot indiscriminately every Asian that particular lynch mobs came across.

  24. j0nz — on 24th October, 2005 at 11:37 am  

    I do agree with you Jay. From what you and other’s are saying it does seem to be rather one sided; if you check my website I have basically blamed these racist black activists. I don’t think they’re none too bright to be honest.

  25. j0nz — on 24th October, 2005 at 11:41 am  

    Well if Ligali is monitoring this site, then can I say “Hello!”. And also “Grow Up!”. Stop the shootings in your own communities would gain you a hell of a lot more respect from everybody. And the stuff you guys are saying on your forums tagetting all Asians just just plain racist, and the height of hypocrisy.

  26. Jay Singh — on 24th October, 2005 at 11:44 am  

    Leon

    So what if Ligali is monitoring this site? They were partly responsible for fostering a lynch mob atmosphere. Here is a report from the Independent today:

    ========

    Police sources said they were investigating claims of incitement to racial hatred against Hot FM and another station, Sting FM.

    Ilyas Mohammed, 28, a Royal Mail worker who narrowly escaped injury when a brick was thrown through his car window, said: “I happen to listen to Hot FM and the stuff this station was putting out was poison. It was about how this girl had been attacked and the Asians were to blame. They said black people should not be spending their money in Asian shops and how we were too successful. The sub-text was obvious.

    “It was more like Rwanda than Birmingham. What happened last night was black kids feeling they could respond to that by beating up some Pakis.”

    http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article321776.ece

    =============

    I would say that Ligali are at the centre of this lynch mob style campaign of racist hatred that did not allow the police to investigate the heinous crime that is alleged to have taken place – they wanted Asians to be killed and their shops destroyed and burnt down. I hardly need to repeat the counterexample – that if a black man commits a rape a website or radio station blames every single black person and incites random violence against all black people. That would be obscene – and this is obscene.

    The girl needs to be helped, the criminals prosecuted, and a line needs to be drawn under it all. But lynch mob racism and collective punishment should not be ignored.

    Anyway, if my comments violate the laws of the website the administrator can delete them.

  27. Jay Singh — on 24th October, 2005 at 12:01 pm  

    This is from todays Times newspaper who have not missed the role played by certain websites and other media sources that instigated and fomented racist violence and aimed to create a lynch mob atmosphere and called for Asians to be murdered and their property burnt in collective punishment for the crimes of individuals. Ligali are of course a part of this racist and fascistic campaign, although they may have tempered the language they used to promote collective racist lynch mob violence against Asians and Asian owned property using rhetoric of ‘boycott’ but still asserting collective guilt. Ligali are absolutely of a piece with the following racist collective guilt lynch mob mentality:

    =============

    Despite the lack of evidence, anger over the alleged rape has been fuelled by black community websites, one of which is promoted by the British Council. Last Tuesday BlacknetUK printed an allegation that “Birmingham Asian shop owner and 18 other Asian men have raped a 14yr [sic] old black girl at the back of their Hair & Beauty shop because they thought she was trying to steal a wig,” and invited comments.

    One contributor to the site wrote: “I hope Asian women are getting their throats cut as we speak.” Another said: “Best to narrow it down to Pakistani women then I’ll agree with you.” By Friday, black community radio stations were also discussing the alleged rape, and that night they were broadcasting details of the alleged crime as fact, according to one listener who spoke to The Times.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1840543,00.html

    ===============

  28. Jay Singh — on 24th October, 2005 at 12:11 pm  

    I have been speaking to dozens of people and the sense is of a community under siege and in fear is tangible – the stories of random violence like the Sikh men having guns held to their heads in a display of lynch mob violence promoted by websites and organisations like Ligali have been noted and disseminated – new incidents are being reported all the time by phone and e-mail – someone whose granfather was punched in the face, a Pakistani woman driving her family on Hamstead Road whose windscreen was smashed by baseball bats and bricks.

    I am not exaggerating when I say that this has unified Asians in a way I have not seen in Birmingham probably for twenty years since the last riots in which Asians businesses were targetted, looted and burnt, and two Bengali men were burnt to death in their post office.

    It is sad and shaming for us that it takes an incident like this to bring Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus together to unite.

    Nevertheless, no collective action of the type advocated by racist lynch mob organisations like Ligali should be carried out – all Asian youth should stay indoors and not seek to retaliate in any way. Leaders should do everything in their control and power to preven this.

    On the off chance that any of the lynch mob organisers, rabble rousers and racists who wish to kill Asians and burn their property are reading this (Hi Ligali & Black Chat!) I make a request – do not escalate the situation. Calm it down. For now it is controllable. But if Sikh Temples, Mosques or Hindu Temples are attacked the situation will become dire. Calm your lynch mobs down – keep it under control.

  29. Jai (not Jay) Singh — on 24th October, 2005 at 12:13 pm  

    These comments on websites and radio stations by black people — and the actions over the weekend — are incredibly irresponsible, because they’re demonstrating every negative, racist stereotype many people have about people of black origin (regardless of whether they’re in the US, the Caribbean, Europe or indeed Africa); they’re actually playing right into the hands of those who have an axe to grind against black people everywhere.

    Also, as I’ve said before, the “collective guilt” rationale that’s being encouraged by some of these nutters is Osama Bin Laden logic.

  30. ContraryMary — on 24th October, 2005 at 12:20 pm  

    Much of this situation, and more specifically this weekend’s violence, could have been prevented if the Police had busted a gut to track down the alleged victim and established if the rape incident was rumour or fact.

    This furore, and ill feeling, has been simmering all week and exploded in ugly violence over the weekend. That’s five days for the police to find the alleged victim.

    It smacks of reactive policing rather than pro-active policing. The police’s attempts to deal with this weekend’s violence is too little too late.

    How about some common sense Policing and getting to the root of this stand off and establishing whether it’s fact or not?

    This is not an attempt to shift the blame or pass the buck, but trying to fathom a way of preventing the violence which has seen a person lose their life. What if it transpires this alleged rape is untrue?

    By the same token if it is true then the guilty should be dealt with swiftly and severely, as should anyone who has tried to protect those involved or colluded in this heinous crime.

  31. Sunny — on 24th October, 2005 at 12:23 pm  

    Can we stop pointing fingers, as I said, it is not very conducive. There is racism on every side and it would not be unheard for Asian gangs to start attacking black communities or even their own communities.

    These are criminal gangs and the police should deal with them.

    Secondly, I would not be happy if some idiots decided they want revenge for attacking places of worship. That again should be dealt by the police. Threatening revenge in a criminal way takes us down to the level of Ligali and Warren G (the local pirate DJ who started this) and that is NOT acceptable.

  32. Jay Singh — on 24th October, 2005 at 12:26 pm  

    Jai Singh

    The comparison with Osama Bin Laden is very appropriate. In the same way that Bin Laden wishes to strike terror and kill those he hates, so did the lynch mob activists decide to create terror against all Asians without discrimination. Hence gangs of youths walked into two pubs in Handsworth which are frequented by mostly Indians and held guns to the heads of middle aged and elderly Sikh and Hindu men. They also smashed up the pubs and stabbed and shot a couple of people. I have to also say that one of the pubs, the Farcroft in Rookery Road is a family pub that has a large function room upstairs which is used by the Indian community to hold birthday and anniversary parties and so on and so there are often children on the premises, although I do not know if there were any children in the function room that night.

    Yes, acts like these were designed to terrorise and kill, maim and frighten individuals for no other reason than their skin was brown, and these acts were fomented and morally supported by pirate radio DJ’s with their Rwandan style rhetoric and websites like Ligali and others that promoted an atmospherics of collective guilt and racist lynch mobbery.

    This is the instigation of the violence – the excuses like ‘Asian community leaders didnt condemn the rape and feel our pain quickly enough’ are excuses.

    The idea that Asians were not disgusted and horrified by this crime is obscene – but the people who make the allegations do not care about this – they wanted Asian blood.

    I of course condemn all retaliatory violence and tit for tat actions by Asians.

    Nevertheless, the facts are plain, and a nasty seam of vicious and murderous racism has been uncovered and is in the public domain. Ligali are of course part of this chain, and I have no doubt that they would (off the record, of course) admire the actions of those gangs that decided to target Asians in an orgy of racist lynch mob terrorising and violence by doing things like putting guns to the heads of Sikh men enjoying a pint in the Farcroft pub.

  33. Jay Singh — on 24th October, 2005 at 12:33 pm  

    Sunny

    Yes I agree, it is not acceptable. But I have just quoted the national newspapers who have not missed the source of the initial fomenting of collective guilt and the preaching of violence ‘to teach the Asians’ a lesson.

    I of course agree with you 100% that no Asian should take the law into their own hands and in my capacity as a private citizen will seek to do all I can calm tempers down and keep the situation under control. This includes any reaction that might take place if racists of the Ligali school attack a Sikh temple, Mosque or Hindu Temple.

    I am going to hit the streets now and talk to some people and look around. I will drop by later to let you know my impressions of the day if anyone is interested.

  34. Sunny — on 24th October, 2005 at 12:33 pm  

    I agree with ContraryMary too. Hearing some of the callers on the Asian Network programme this morning, a lot of people complained that the police neither responded fast enough to rumours of the rape, neither did enough to contain the violence. Women were being attacked apparently and the police came hours later. WTF!

  35. Jai (not Jay) Singh — on 24th October, 2005 at 12:40 pm  

    Sunny,

    You’re absolutely right, although I don’t think anyone on this particular thread is attempting to encourage tit-for-tat violence — the opposite, in fact.

    By the way you did a great job in removing the huge numbers of offensive posts from that other thread during the weekend — well done.

    Jay Singh,

    I’ve met lots of extremely nice black people — both African and Caribbean — over the years, many of whom were individuals I became friends with at university and during my professional life afterwards; there are a lot of extremely intelligent, good-natured, and highly-educated black people out there. The rhetoric – and indeed actual violence – I mentioned in my previous post just makes me feel very bad for those innocent people and indeed for decent black people everywhere, because the more racist and/or ignorant non-black members of the population have all kinds of negative views of black people (the violence/criminal stereotype is already well-known, plus more recent events like the lootings in New Orleans, along with Rwanda, Darfur etc).

    The tragedy of all this is that, upon hearing some of the psychotic views that have been voiced, and the lynch-mob violence that is being encouraged (retaliatory rapes, “women’s throats being cut” etc etc — I mean, for God’s sake….), many people will just say “See, I told you this is what they’re like, they do this everywhere”.

    Absolutely terrible.

  36. Sunny — on 24th October, 2005 at 12:43 pm  

    Jay – thanks, yeah it would be good to know what is happening on the streets. Blacknet has been incredibly irresponsible but all they’ve done is not deleted racist comments that may have also been posted on Asian websites on other occasions. My point being, there isn’t more or less racism anywhere. So such finger-pointing gets us nowhere.

    BTW, I”ve just been called by the Pakistani channel PTV Prime and they want me to debate Toyin from Ligali this wednesday about this. So will let you know about that too.

  37. leon — on 24th October, 2005 at 1:11 pm  

    “So what if Ligali is monitoring this site? They were partly responsible for fostering a lynch mob atmosphere. ”

    And where do you think they’re getting some of their twisted idiocy from?

  38. krazie — on 24th October, 2005 at 1:13 pm  

    Ligali on PTV. Should be interesting.

  39. leon — on 24th October, 2005 at 1:15 pm  

    Or frustating…tbh they and Sunny should be debating this on a more neutral channel…

  40. krazie — on 24th October, 2005 at 1:20 pm  

    Sunny, if Ligali reject the use of “Black” do a poll and find out how many West Indian people find the term Black offensive.

  41. Geezer — on 24th October, 2005 at 1:50 pm  

    Jay Singh I can’t thank you enough for your informative posts detailing the events on that infamous Saturday night. I am shocked at the how wide the mob violence orchestrated by young black youths was on the Asian community. I did hear of some pub being attacked but earlier reports said it was a West Indian pub and Asian youths had attacked it because some of the known rioters were hiding out there. But revelations of elderly people having guns put to their head, woman being attacked and places of worship certainly paints a different picture then the small scale running battles scene we all first initially saw.

    At this point in time it is important that our community leaders reign in the youth and urge them not to go for pay back. If people have been reading the papers which I’m sure they have we can see the facts slowly emerging of this incident at the shop. The owner has voluntarily gone to the police and offered every sort of assistance to them to help this case. It should also be mentioned he has stayed at the shop the whole time with his family which throws water on the rumours that he had “disappeared” so in the minds of those who took part in the lynch mobs he must be “guilty”. If we sit tight the facts will come out and it will be a huge moral victory for us as.

  42. Amar — on 24th October, 2005 at 1:55 pm  

    The Asian shop owner at the centre of rape allegations by blacks denied any knowledge of such an attack and said he was convinced there was a vendetta against him.

    The 33-year-old father-of-three, from Handsworth, said: “I have done absolutely nothing wrong, yet me and my staff are the target of this unbelievable public campaign.

    “It was originally claimed six months ago that I fondled a young black female customer, which was totally untrue… Before I knew it, the allegation was that I had assaulted two girls. By last week, I had become a monster who had instigated a 19-man rape of a 14-year-old girl. I truly don’t know where this has all come from. I can only suspect this campaign of hate has been initiated by rivals who can’t stand the fact that an Asian man is selling African products.

    “All this is an excuse to drive me out of business. It’s a trade war and I’m not giving up.

    “I stayed in the shop all last week despite having a mob camped outside demanding my blood. I wanted to show them that I have done nothing wrong, but it is frightening all the same. I am more fearful for my family, but I have to make a living and I fully intend to be open as normal tomorrow.”

    He added: “I do not have any problems with the black community. They are my valued customers and friends. I blame the sinister groups who have duped ordinary people into behaving like a lynch mob.”

    His solicitor Mohsin Afsar said his client had voluntarily gone to police and given a statement. “My client spent 12 hours at the police station last Friday, some of them in a cell, being interviewed about this. He felt he should co-operate with the inquiry and hopefully put the vicious rumours to rest.

    “The police have spent two days doing forensic tests at the shop and they found nothing to suggest any sexual attack of any kind had taken place there.

  43. krazie — on 24th October, 2005 at 1:59 pm  

    Amar, can you source where you getting your info. from otherwise its just hearsay.

  44. David T — on 24th October, 2005 at 2:00 pm  

    I don’t know if you have read Ligali’s dismal attempt at justifying its racist slurs and alarmist campaigning.

    http://www.ligali.org/article.php?id=343

    I note, incidentally, that they use the phrase “Chinese whispers” in their FAQ on their boycott.

    How ironic: given that Ligali spends most of its time shrieking hysterically at newspapers, and other campaigning groups, for using terminology which it deems racist, and encouraging the use of terms such as “whiteout” rather than “blackout”, and so on…

  45. j0nz — on 24th October, 2005 at 2:14 pm  

    Link doesn’t work

  46. Siddharth — on 24th October, 2005 at 2:18 pm  

    I can see the far-right rubbing thier hands in glee at the prospect of a full blown race riot.

    The Far-Right are not the only ones who are trying to further their cause with the use of the sorry events in Birmingham over the weekend.

    The Right-Wing blogosphere who like to call themselves "Left-Wing" (or the "Progressive" Left – ha ha), are also using the riots for point-scoring on their bugbears of Asylum, Immigration and Black criminality. For them, the central issue here is not the rape of a young girl or the incited and aggravated damage done to property and businesses, but that the rape-victim has commited the heinous crime of being an illegal immigrant!

  47. Geezer — on 24th October, 2005 at 2:19 pm  

    The shopkeeper at the centre of the allegations has reportedly denied that any rape took place and has offered himself to the police to be interviewed.The 33-year-old man, who owns Beauty Queen Cosmetics and asked to remain anonymous, told a newspaper that he had been branded a rapist by rival cosmetic companies.

    “It was originally claimed as far back as six months ago that I had fondled a young black female customer, which was totally untrue. By last week I had become a monster who had instigated a 19-man gang rape of a 14-year-old girl,” he said.
    “I truly don’t know where all this has come from. I can only suspect that this campaign of hate has been initiated by rivals who can’t stand the fact that an Asian man is selling African products.”

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1840543,00.html

    Despite forensic searches of the beauty product shop, no evidence had been found to support such a claim, he said.

    “As it stands, that victim has not come forward,” he said. “We are desperate to talk to that person.

    “We have treated this very seriously from the outset.

    “I do not know whether this event has taken place, there is a lot of rumour, myth and speculation.

    “There is nothing to support that particular allegation at the moment.”

    http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article321851.ece

  48. Rohin — on 24th October, 2005 at 2:25 pm  

    Yes I agree krazie, Amar that is uncalled for. When I were a lad, I worked in a takeaway and we had louts making trouble as well – they came in all hues. You can’t generalise about who makes life difficult for shopkeepers, unless you just say ‘young males’ as that’s almost always true. There’s no colour to thuggery.

    David T, that disclaimer, for wont of a better word, was hilarious! How many times did the word ‘alleged’ appear? Haha, just shows that now it’s becoming more apparent that rumour is all it ever was, they’re hiding behind semantics. They also accuse The Voice Newspaper of maliciously propagating anti-black articles!

    “All we do is report what we’re told”

    Wow. Quick, tell them we’ve found Elvis on Mars – they’ll report it!

  49. David T — on 24th October, 2005 at 2:25 pm  

    Oh come on: you know what s/he’s saying.

    Using “ape” to describe black people, is like talking about jews being stingy, or banglas smelling of fish, and so on.

  50. Geezer — on 24th October, 2005 at 2:27 pm  

    Well this just keeps on getting better….

    “Missiles were hurled at a Sikh temple and an Indian motorist was dragged out of his car and nearly beaten up”

  51. Amar — on 24th October, 2005 at 2:30 pm  

    I suggest you people take a look at the black forums out there

    especially this one

    http://www.blackchat.co.uk/theblackforum/forum9/18335-1.html

    On there was abuse and extreme hatered for Asians by Blacks and I was shocked and appalled what I read but to be honest not superised.

    And it’s funny how they were calling for riots to gain more media attention to the problems on their and now after a few people are dead and injured and thousands of pounds worth of damage. The racist and threatening calls for attacks on asians are suddenly deleted or edited.

    Funny that.

  52. j0nz — on 24th October, 2005 at 2:37 pm  

    What Rohin said.

  53. krazie — on 24th October, 2005 at 2:43 pm  

    There not the common enemy you idiot. They are a small minority, and don’t represent the Black community.

    Just like yourself. You’re the minority and don’t in any way represent the peace-loving, compassionate Asian community.

  54. j0nz — on 24th October, 2005 at 2:43 pm  

    The man who rises above it is a better man.

  55. leon — on 24th October, 2005 at 2:46 pm  

    “The man who rises above it is a better man.”

    Yeah, you’re right I just hate divisive idiots like Ligali and Amar….it saddens me that this situation is being fueled by racist hatred on both sides.

  56. Rohin — on 24th October, 2005 at 2:47 pm  

    jonz, krazie, leon – don’t waste your breath.

    Amar, I know you’re angry. But you must see you’re doing EXACTLY what the people you’re criticising did. Anyway, if you step over the line – your comments will be deleted (just as the comments you refer to from black racists were deleted too).

  57. krazie — on 24th October, 2005 at 2:50 pm  

    Sorry Rohin, but calling Black people apes is not on. Regardless of how vexed a person is.

  58. Amar — on 24th October, 2005 at 2:52 pm  

    The people who target innocent asians quickly are seen as the enemy…. and since the black youths in those gang targetted ALL asians and their business’s they will only themselves to blame for the hate and negativity they have created for their community.

    People should be aware of the black gangs who took part in the violence “johnson crew” and “burger bar boys” this issue is more to do with drugs and the sucess of asians business’s compare to black than so called gang rapes by asians, which is proven to be lies now since police found not even one shred of evidence of this alleged crime.

    The black dj’s “warren G” and others on those priate radio stations need to be held to account for inciting this kind of tension and violence. I want to see them punished to very very harish for even daring to make up false allegations which has cost lives.

  59. leon — on 24th October, 2005 at 2:54 pm  

    Krazies got it right. Rohin, you know how this will look, alleged black person comes on here being racist and gets deleted. Alleged Asian person does the same and their told they should stop but no delete.

  60. leon — on 24th October, 2005 at 2:56 pm  

    If you want to talk drugs and gangs Amar you should check the facts. Both Asian and “black” gangs have taken avantage of this situation to settle old scores or take shots at each other…

  61. leon — on 24th October, 2005 at 3:16 pm  

    “Why are innocent asians paying the price for black and asian gang turf drug war?”

    Why are innocent people paying the price for the actions of scum like those gangs?

  62. Geezer — on 24th October, 2005 at 3:17 pm  

    Guys firstly the owner of the board is the only one with the privileges to erase comments and he is currently out and about and will be back soon to delete the comments. Once we have more administrators on board the comments above will be less of an occurrence.

    Also Aamr for love of god you surely cannot justify your comment?

    Quit with the racial undertones, what happens at Backchat etc DOES NOT set the precedent for what we say on here. If people wish to talk about violence and indulge in racist abuse let them do so, but if we do the same not only are we no better than they are but we also risk alienating the greater majority of the African community who want to work with us in a harmonious way.

  63. Old Pickler — on 24th October, 2005 at 3:22 pm  

    It’s men (of all races) who are causing all the problems. What they need is a good whipping by a dominatrix.

  64. Amar — on 24th October, 2005 at 3:35 pm  

    “Pickled Politics is a current affairs magazine (group blog) that focuses on the big events that shape our society, and allows young British Asians to voice their opinions on those events. ”

    It seems we have more non-british asians on this board than the people this website is dedicated too. Contrast that to blackchat.co.uk and stormfront who openly spew racial abuse and hatered for asians yet on most asian forums our views and opinions are suppressed by our so called own people.

  65. Geezer — on 24th October, 2005 at 3:40 pm  

    Contrast that to blackchat.co.uk and stormfront who openly spew racial abuse and hatered for asians yet on most asian forums our views and opinions are suppressed by our so called own people.[Amar]

    Amar have you seen the fall out of the comments being posted on Blackchat? They are splashed all over the national press and have caused immeasurable damage to the image of the community. There are literal quotes like “kill all the rats” etc. Do you want these same quotes used by some Asians to be paraded by the national press as an accurate representation of the wider community? The answer I hope would be no…

  66. Amar — on 24th October, 2005 at 3:44 pm  

    Off course not but it goes to show the black community have deep racial haterd not only for whites but asians aswell… so no longer can they claim they are the sufferers or victims when they themsleves are guilty for stiring up racial hatered against minorities.

    They need to look at their own community and how their youths are racist and disrespectful to asians especially shop keepers before we can have a peaceful and harmonous co-existence.

  67. Don — on 24th October, 2005 at 3:46 pm  

    OP

    after the madness of the weekend you are (almost) the voice of sweet reason.

    ‘It’s men (of all races) who are causing all the problems’

    I doubt if rape victims see their ordeal as part of inter-cultural tensions and lack of economic opportunity or anything other than what it is; some men rape.

    The sooner the majority of ‘community leaders’ are black and asian women, the better.

  68. Old Pickler — on 24th October, 2005 at 3:50 pm  

    The sooner the majority of ‘community leaders’ are black and asian women, the better.

    I couldn’t agree more. All ‘community leaders’ seem to be reactionary old men with beards.

  69. Amar — on 24th October, 2005 at 3:54 pm  

    I rather listen to a man than any woman community leader.

    No offence but women make judgements on emotions far too often for my likening. Most males would perfer to listen to a man than any woman. And since this problem involves mainly male youth on both sides its best to be addressed by men not women who would be sidelined and their words not having any impact.

  70. Chris — on 24th October, 2005 at 3:55 pm  

    Amar how right you are – nothing emotional about your comments…

  71. SKye-Vee — on 24th October, 2005 at 3:57 pm  

    A lot of comments have been made. Statements that have been made that should have really been thought through properly. Stop arguing amongst yourselves.

    Stop take a breath. Do something constructive.

    How do we solve this problem?… stop it from escalating?… stop it from spreading?…Once it’s over, how do we stop it happening again?

    This issue has broght a lot of hidden prejudices to the surface. Prejudices that are present on all sides. Blacks, Asians, Police and Media.

    Control has been lost and handed to a bunch of irresponsible loons, with their own agendas. In all honesty it didn’t take much for them to cease control. There are forces bigger than this rumour, and who firebombed who at work here now.
    Don’t you think instead of following the lead of loonies we should help the communities involved to get back control.

    Forget about Asians uniting together against blacks or vice versa, we should ALL be uniting together against all this anger and prejudice to bring forth some peace.

  72. krazie — on 24th October, 2005 at 4:03 pm  

    “I rather listen to a man than any woman community leader”-
    Your just digging yourself a hole, ain’t you son.

  73. SKye-Vee — on 24th October, 2005 at 4:04 pm  

    The sooner the majority of ‘community leaders’ are black and asian women, the better.

    Excuse me but when have men ever listened to a women. It’s all blah, blah blah. They speak in a different language, and always during the footaball, or that difficult level in Grand Theft Auto.

    ‘It’s men (of all races) who are causing all the problems’

    I think there are plenty of women out there who have caused problems. My wounded heart has been a victim of a few.

    Someone had to turn this into a male/female debate.

  74. Old Pickler — on 24th October, 2005 at 4:15 pm  

    No offence but women make judgements on emotions far too often for my likening

    Get back to your cave, Amar Flintstone.

    And no emotion was shown by all these feral males? Emotions like hate, anger, lust (if the rape is true)?

    Women may get a bit uppity about soft furnishings, but that’s pretty mild.

  75. coruja — on 24th October, 2005 at 4:17 pm  

    First of all ‘hatred’ is spelt thus, there is so much talk of it yet hardly anyone seems to be bothered to spell it!

    For all the suspicions and antipathy each community holds against each other, lets see the wall of indifference by the police and the face of true racism in this country when these events are reported and discussed by the popular media.

    For some people this may be groups of ‘black’ youths attacking ‘asian’ people & their businesses but for most we’re just a bunch of wogs shooting, looting and killing each other.

    There are some who complain that brown people & their places of worship are indiscriminately attacked – whether Hindu, Muslim or whatever!?
    When do you ever see/hear racists make distinctions between West Indians, Nigerians, Somalis or whatever?? Aren’t they all ‘blacks’ for most of the time? Weren’t we just ‘pakis’ at school?

    Mostly this is about people being resentful and jealous of another group’s relative success. It happens to be that the groups are organised along a colour line – and acting on that is the easiest thing to do; their behaviour is that of people who don’t see any other option, of people who just don’t have any hope.

  76. Sunny — on 24th October, 2005 at 4:21 pm  

    Amar you dumb twat – you’re accusing other people of stirring up hatred, or saying you don’t want women to be leaders because they are too emotional – yet you are the only one chatting emotional shit about “you mess with us, big mistake”.

    Listen, stop waving your dick around. It ain’t that big and no one cares about you. Fuck off somewhere else. This is for people to constructively discuss this and talk about building bridges. This ain’t the Asian version of the BNP site and if you are looking for one, find it somewhere else.

  77. Don — on 24th October, 2005 at 4:23 pm  

    SKye-Vee

    A video-games fan? Clearly an expert on women, then.

    Amar,

    ‘I rather listen to a man than any woman community leader.’

    Of course you would. That is the problem.

  78. Kulvinder — on 24th October, 2005 at 4:33 pm  

    The sooner everyone makes me ‘community leader’ the better. You’d all live under a brutal tyrancy, but there would be comradeship in a shared hatred.

  79. Jai Singh — on 24th October, 2005 at 4:36 pm  

    Amar, in order to prevent any further swearing in your direction, it would probably be best if you told us approximately how old you are. This is a genuine and friendly question.

    With regards to your other points:

    =>”I rather listen to a man than any woman community leader.”

    As Don said, that is part of the fundamental problem. A woman’s view is actually equally worthy of respect as a man’s. It is the words which are being spoken (and the intention/motivation behind why they are said) which is of paramount importance, not the gender of the individual speaking them.

    =>”No offence but women make judgements on emotions far too often for my likening.”

    No, they don’t — you’d be shocked by how ruthlessly practical many women can be. And men are equally, if not more, susceptible to emotionally-driven decisions — especially once that testosterone-driven ego starts working its effect.

    =>”Most males would perfer to listen to a man than any woman. And since this problem involves mainly male youth on both sides its best to be addressed by men not women who would be sidelined and their words not having any impact.”

    I think you’re generalising to a great extent, but it is true that many men — especially from certain ethnic groups — can unfortunately be quite misogynistic and patriarchal in their mindset, and in that sense a man’s voice would indeed have a greater impact.

  80. Siddharth — on 24th October, 2005 at 4:38 pm  

    oooh I feel an oscar moment coming on:

    All women become like their mothers. That is their tragedy. No man does. That’s his.

  81. David T — on 24th October, 2005 at 4:58 pm  

    The Good News: A woman “community leader” who has come forward to call for calm [HURRAY!!!!!!!!!!!!]

    The Bad News: The woman in question is the RESPECT/Muslim Brotherhood apparatchik and professional bandwaggon jumper, Salma Yaqoob [BOO!!!!!!!!!]

    http://news.google.com/news?q=salma%20yaqoob

  82. Amar — on 24th October, 2005 at 5:03 pm  

    jai singh… kindly stop the sickening poltical correctness it is getting beyond a joke now…people are adult enough to hear ones views arent they? stop being such a namby pamby lilly liberal.

    Muppet.

    As for women being leaders… I can name you many women leaders who throughout history have conducted genocide, forced sterolisations of the poor, war/conflicts,etc, etc

    Do you want me to embrass you by showing you case upon case of women leaders who commited crimes that have affected large sections of humanity.

  83. David T — on 24th October, 2005 at 5:05 pm  

    Oh come now.

    Supporting George Galloway is pretty scummy, but it is hardly a “crime that has affected large sections of humanity”.

  84. David T — on 24th October, 2005 at 5:06 pm  

    And another thing about women leaders. They can’t “cook to save their lives”

  85. Don — on 24th October, 2005 at 5:09 pm  

    Coruja,

    I don’t dispute that racism – concious or unconcious – is a problem in both the police and sections of the media, but I don’t see how either have acted wrongly over the current situation.

    My wish for a greater representation by women in expressing ‘the will of the community’ may have been optimistic – Jai is right that there are far too many misogynists who just dismiss 50% of the population as having no worthwhile voice – but not unrealistic. Girls are consistently out-performing boys in all sections of society, black, white or asian. It’s only a matter of time.

  86. douglas — on 24th October, 2005 at 5:10 pm  

    Amar,

    This site was supposed to be a shining light of modern Asian thought. And I think Sunny’s op-ed up at the top of this thread, (do you remember it?), was a clear and rational response to what is a very worrying event.

    If an allegation of rape is sufficient to get ‘communities’ this stirred up so that people are going around killing, then the future is very dark indeed. We are handing the initiative to twisted demagogues. I take it that you do not want to see that either.

    You’ve just been hijacked by a White Scottish Atheist, sorry about that, but there ain’t a thing I can do about it.

    douglas

  87. Jai Singh — on 24th October, 2005 at 5:11 pm  

    Amar I was actually attempting to do you a favour and stop everyone else from continuing to attack you — if you tell us how old you are, at least that will help everyone understand where you’re coming from.

    Being a liberal or a conservative has absolutely nothing to do with it — it’s common sense and basic human decency. Although as I happen to be a Sikh, it’s also what my own religion teaches me.

    You need to take a step back and think about what you’re saying and how it’s being perceived by everyone here — you’re not only undermining your own arguments (and some — not all — of your views are valid, as I stated in my previous post) but you’re also alienating people who would otherwise treat your opinions with greater respect.

  88. Don — on 24th October, 2005 at 5:12 pm  

    ‘ I can name you many women leaders who throughout history have conducted genocide..’

    I’ll settle for three.

  89. Siddharth — on 24th October, 2005 at 5:20 pm  

    And another thing about women leaders. They can’t “cook to save their lives”

    Yeah but how good is Gordon Ramsay at “forced sterolisations of the poor, war/conflicts,etc, etc”? Lousy, I’ll bet.

  90. SKye-Vee — on 24th October, 2005 at 5:45 pm  

    Don

    I was just writing a stupid sexist reply to what I thought was a stupid sexist comment(very infantile of me, my apologies Sunny). Turning this into a sexist debate is really not helping things. Blaming this whole problem on men is not solving anything and is not at all true. Your ludicrus statements only serve to cloud and already heated discussion.

    In truth I shouldn’t have really replied to your post but I needed a bit of light relief from all the neagtivity expressed here. Judging from a few other replies I can see a few others felt in a similar mood. Plus I thought the blatent idiocy of my reply served to demonstrate what I thought of your post. The irony was quite conveyed.

    I agree with Sunny, we should constructively discuss this and talk about building bridges.

  91. Al-Hack — on 24th October, 2005 at 5:48 pm  

    As for women being leaders… I can name you many women leaders who throughout history have conducted genocide, forced sterolisations of the poor, war/conflicts,etc, etc – Amar.

    Yes, because there never has been any men committing genocide have there? Dumb-arse.

  92. SKye-Vee — on 24th October, 2005 at 5:49 pm  

    The irony wasn’t quite conveyed. *

  93. Don — on 24th October, 2005 at 5:58 pm  

    SKye-Vee

    Didn’t catch your irony. Or maybe you didn’t catch mine. Maybe you could – unironically – explain why it is stupid to suggest that an increased participation by women in community affairs would be a positive development..

  94. Old Pickler — on 24th October, 2005 at 6:02 pm  

    If men really are better cooks, they should spend more time in the kitchen and less time rioting. And less time making sweeping generalisations. Men are always doing that.

  95. Mirax — on 24th October, 2005 at 6:04 pm  

    3?
    I rather suspect that Amar will come out with the likes of golda,indira and srimavo/chandrika bandaranike…

  96. Don — on 24th October, 2005 at 6:37 pm  

    Mirax

    Let the lad do his own homework.

  97. Mokum — on 24th October, 2005 at 6:48 pm  

    OP, don’t you know we’ve copied that feminine multi-tasking trick by now? You should see what I can do to a souffle with a baseball bat. Why, I even have a pram with a really cool Molotov cocktail launcher on the front. Heavens, women. One can’t even riot anymore without them complaining.

  98. Old Pickler — on 24th October, 2005 at 7:09 pm  

    You should see what I can do to a souffle with a baseball bat.

    Hmm! And lashings of slagroom, please.

  99. SKye-Vee — on 24th October, 2005 at 7:21 pm  

    “explain why it is stupid to suggest that an increased participation by women in community affairs would be a positive development..”

    Nothing stupid in that at all. Women should be encouraged to take an active part in community, world and politcal affairs. Still a majority of community leaders being women, will not neccessarily be for the better.

    To be honest I wouldn’t mind if the right women wouldn’t mind taking an active part in my life. You can tell by my attitude I could do with some help in that department. To be a better person.

    I found the…

    ‘It’s men (of all races) who are causing all the problems’

    …statement stupid.

    Irony, so difficult to convey in words, better expressed in person.

  100. Old Pickler — on 24th October, 2005 at 7:27 pm  

    Skye-Vee – so how many women have been rioting and raping, then?

    I didn’t mean all the problems everywhere, silly.

  101. SKye-Vee — on 24th October, 2005 at 7:43 pm  

    Ohh ok. Sorry taking things literally .

    so how many women have been rioting and raping, then?

    In truth dunno, I assume not many. However the rioting was a result of hidden resentment, anger and prejudice.

    Women just as men are capable of harbouring racist views, unsubstatiated prejudice and expressing anger. I know a lot of women who do.

    So they may not be throwing the petrol bombs, but expressing these attitudes behind close doors, in front of there families is also dangerous, as it fosters resentment and anger festers within youngsters.

  102. SKye-Vee — on 24th October, 2005 at 7:47 pm  

    As for raping.

    Male sexual harrassment and molestation, by women isn’t exactly unknown.

  103. SKye-Vee — on 24th October, 2005 at 7:48 pm  

    although not in this case.

  104. Don — on 24th October, 2005 at 8:14 pm  

    I’m glad we agree that neither of us is stupid, and I take your point that, ‘Women just as men are capable of harbouring racist views, unsubstatiated prejudice and expressing anger. ‘

    Ok, I have no evidence that ‘a majority of community leaders being women, ‘ will necessarily make things better. I just think it is likely, and well worth trying.

  105. Barbara Meinhoff — on 25th October, 2005 at 12:00 am  

    I just tried Googling ‘Ligali’ for the UK and got references to them as a political party. There don’t seem to be any references to them in news articles though – only Sunny seems to have picked up on them.

    I’m wondering how -if- they fit in with any religious affiliations – most of the Afro-Carib activism seems to be centred round the local church.

    Are they anticipating turning this into a more religious thing rather than a racial thing?

    Ironic really, I saw the Dispatches programme this evening called YOUNG ANGRY AND MUSLIM which featured an African rep of Hizb-ut-Tahrir explaining to the (Pakistani) presenter that of course young Muslims would join the call for jihad as they are one big family.

    Incidentally, might be worth checking if they have branches in Guyana or Jamaica – I assume they do. I remember reading some stuff about rising Anti-Indian feeling in the Carribean (Indians being thought of as too successful again).

  106. Barbara Meinhoff — on 25th October, 2005 at 12:05 am  

    From Ligali:

    Earlier this year, media sources such as the BBC, Choice FM, the Guardian, the Sun, the Daily Mail, and even the Voice maliciously propagated stories about the association of African churches with the ritualistic murder of hundreds of missing boys. These groundless allegations from ‘official’ sources were published on the basis of absolutely no evidence. They were later refuted by police sources who confirmed that the media hype had grossly and unhelpfully exaggerated the situation.

    In this instance relating to the attack of the young girl in Birmingham, we have received several accounts from trusted sources which are too similar to be a co-incidence. That is actually more information than any of the ‘official’ sources had with the aforementioned ‘story’.

  107. Eric — on 25th October, 2005 at 12:11 am  

    Siddartha,

    You have an absolute inability to read, or more accurately, an ability to read what is not there.

    At what point did I suggest the central point of this issue was that the girl was an illegal immigrant?

    When you say:

    “For them, the central issue here is not the rape of a young girl or the incited and aggravated damage done to property and businesses, but that the rape-victim has commited the heinous crime of being an illegal immigrant!”

    You forget to mention at no point do I note the immigration status of the girl. In fact, it has absolutely no bearing on the case, apart from the fact it may be preventing her from going to the Police – I hear she did attend hospital after the alleged incident though.

    As for racism, you are the one peddling anti-semitic conspiracies about the BBC.

  108. Siddharth — on 25th October, 2005 at 8:34 am  

    OK thanks for pointing out that I am peddling anti-semitic conspiracies if I link to an article by Mark Elf who is himself Jewish and often critical of Zionism.

    So lets be clear of your rules. It would be anti-Islamic if I link to Ziauddin Sardar who is a Muslim and often critical of Islamic Fundamentalism. Likewise, Pickled Politics is a racist blog because Sunny, who is Asian, is often critical of Asian politicians. Right?

    I see you have taken your advice and decided that it is not racist to post stuff that could be material straight off a watered down version of the StormFront site.

  109. tara — on 25th October, 2005 at 12:04 pm  

    Hiya,

    Just a quick point of information:
    The correct term when referring to people of African origin in the UK is African-Caribbean or African British – as one would refer to people of Asian origin in the UK as Asians or British Asian.
    The term “Blacks” is offensive when not used with terms such as “Browns” or “Whites”.

    Thank you.

  110. j0nz — on 25th October, 2005 at 6:52 pm  

    How do you refer to whites then, Tara?

    Thanks.

  111. j0nz — on 25th October, 2005 at 6:56 pm  

    I mean these are all term of references, no? Wouldn’t be a right pain in the arse if I said, I find the terms ‘white’ or ‘caucasian’ offensive, please refer to me as being of ‘anglo-saxon’ descent.

    Before we know it will be Referring To Those Who Cannot Be Named like in Harry Potter.

    Just a thought.

  112. tara — on 25th October, 2005 at 8:16 pm  

    @jOnz
    Not sure, probably wouldn’t really matter that much as terms for this group aren’t often derogatory.

  113. douglas — on 25th October, 2005 at 9:44 pm  

    So, no Amar resopnse, Sunny? Yo, got you attention. Is that because he’s been banned or as he just decided to go silent? If the former, I’d be worried. If the latter, I’m worried too. It is a far, far better thing to let your anger out at a computer monitor than it ever is to inflict it on real people.

    I’d like to know. Call it my PhD research subject:

    “Freedom of expression , even when you are barking mad.”

    douglas

    douglas

  114. fresh — on 26th October, 2005 at 12:08 am  

    It is great to see women are pulling together from all communities to knock some sense into the buffoons.

    Salma Yacoob is probably best placed given her placing in the elections and no doubt the network of contacts she would have built up in the run up to the last general election and prior to that her anti-war campaigning.

    More often than not its incidents and protests which throw up leaders. This is also true for so many of those in government today (not sure about Tony Blair though). It was always thus – the world over. (And seeing that Sonny is now invited to a debate on PTV I guess he is on a similar path – and good luck to him).

    I think we should be glad someone has the connections to pull things together and should be fully supported in her/their aims.

    She, if I recall correctly, identified the key underlying issues – poverty. Probably grinding poverty at that, which affects black, asian and white people.

    There has never been any doubt in my mind how economics plays into hands of the racists.

    We should also call on the government and the local authority to address these issues for all people across the board.

    As for racism within communities – this has to be tackled. And it is not going to happen through dictat. It will happen through challenging racist behaviour. Which I am glad is being done here.

    We also need to have places where there is a reason for the communities to come into contact with each other – not in the current manner I might add.

    The other factor in racism is relying on unsubstantiated allegations and rumours. The truth is in the eye of the beholder.

    Reports of incidents on here are likely to be 3rd hand (apologies to those who may have been direct witnesses). What’s more they will generally be from their own community’s perspective.

    Of course people reading these reports will be riled.

    To avoid the pitfall which Ligali seem to have dug and fallen into – its important that we do not end up putting up a blow-by-blow account.

    The media is clearly very lazy and will rely on anything to meet their deadlines, copy and agenda.

  115. Sunny — on 26th October, 2005 at 1:04 am  

    True Fresh, Economics does play a big part, a fact Ligali acknowledge by asking for an economic boycott. Not sure about Birmingham Mosque though, they are only in it for themselves, and not really about stopping inter-communial violence.

  116. Fresh — on 26th October, 2005 at 2:49 am  

    Sunny, not sure I understand your comment about Birmingham Mosque.

    Nevertheless, the economic issues I was referring to are the conditions in which many people have to live day in day out.

    There is a danger that asians become seen as affluent, when the majority of them are definitely not. Not every asian has a successful business.

    I’ve been in a few homes which outwardly look well-kept only to find their living conditions are abysmal – no carpets for example, with the adults suffering from one ailment or another. Or they are on minimum wage (or less) working in one shop or another.

    This I am sure applies to all the groupings.

    Rather than a boycott, which will no doubt remove another form of interaction between the communities, I would actively promote black businesses supplying their catchment of whatever race.

    From a business point of view, by becoming a ‘black only’ or ‘asian only’ store you would immediately halve your potential. There is no sense in that.

    Longer term unless you build a strong base of very supportive customers then the prognosis is poor. This would, in my opinion reduce the chances of getting financial backing.

    As for the area in question, lets have black-owned businesses alongside all the others.

  117. JASON — on 31st October, 2005 at 10:06 am  

    Please do not take the views of a minority of fools on Blackchat as the view of Black people on a whole… I personally feel ashamed at majority of the views on that website and I am glad its been shut hopefully never to be reopened until it learns how to channel the power it has in a responsible way…

  118. Sunny — on 31st October, 2005 at 1:11 pm  

    Fresh – in fact I’m not sure why I mentioned B’ham mosque anyway.

    I agree that the Black communities need to focus on economic development, but going on about it in a way that implies Asian businesses should be boycotted in response is deeply divisive IMO.

    You are also right about Asian families being very poor. In fact the Pakistani community up north is still quite impoverished .

    I would actively promote black businesses supplying their catchment of whatever race.

    How?

  119. funkg — on 31st October, 2005 at 2:30 pm  

    Why keep going on about the ‘Asian community’ and the ‘black’ community, what do we all hang out together?
    Asia is a vast continent with many differing ethnic groups, for instance all over India and across Asia, you will find that many of the peoples look almost African, which begs the question, is there such a people as ‘black people’ since I have met ‘black’ people in Thailand who are Thai!
    in friday 21st October’s edition of Eastern Eye newspaper, a letter writer wrote in to complain that there is no such thing as an ‘Asian community’ in the UK or elsewhere. This so called ‘Asian community’ can include Muslims, Sikhs, Christians all of whom have there own traditions customs and cultures. Alongside this of course there are the myriad nations, tribes, caste and clans all of whom will generally look after there own.
    I work in a predominantly Muslim Asian area of East London and I find that often many retail owners do not take kindly to poor manners, conduct such as public eating or drinking, revealing clothing and loudness especially amongst their ‘own’.
    Many poorly informed, least travelled and ill judged black people look at the successes of the ‘Asian Communities’ without any real understanding of these communities, or issues that are currently happening in the UK, are the ‘black communities’ so ignorant of global politics that we do not realise the issues of Asian/Muslim stop and search due to terrorism? Why do we as black people always have to think we are the only victims? Within the so called ‘Asian Community’ there are presently major issues around illicit drugs, low GCSE passes, and the increasing numbers of Pakistani and Bengali British boys entering the Criminal Justice system, as I personally work with these groups. On a street level due to the issues high unemployment, deprivation and lack of opportunities, many young people turn to crime especially within the ‘drugs industry’. As a consequence of this lucrative trade, violence frequently occurs within and out side of groups of people including those from differing ethnic groups fighting to take control of this trade on the street.

  120. funkg — on 31st October, 2005 at 2:41 pm  

    hey i just thought of somthing!
    no one has spoken about this yet, but is’nt Islam one of the worlds fastest growing faiths? certainly plenty of african/carribean people are deciding to re-convert from christianity in the UK. whose interest does it serve to foster antaganism amongst communities?

  121. Bahdresh — on 31st October, 2005 at 2:43 pm  

    But pakistani and Bengali boys are not doing that bad you know!! They are actually doing better now

  122. Black boy — on 31st October, 2005 at 3:02 pm  

    whose interest does it serve to foster antaganism amongst communities?

    It’s either George Bush, Nick Griffin or Voldemort lol
    Nah..I think we should take responsibility for it.

  123. funkg — on 31st October, 2005 at 3:13 pm  

    Greetings Bahdresh,
    Believe me brother it is that bad in the east end, but there are always exceptions especially with the success of girls.
    i grew up in the east end of london when it was predominately still white with a small but growing Asian community and of course smaller black communities. the east end schools (stepney green, george greene, langdon park) always had poor exam results, they still do. it sickens me when i see so many young british bengali lads leave school with no gcse’s. many go on to work in family restaurants. and you know what? when they finally decide to move into different types of employment do ‘white’ employers recognise their restaurant experience? Hell no! I know this from experience as I work in recruitment. in some of our schools they can be up to 90% Bengali and whilst this is no bad thing at all, mix this in with social deprivation, lack of opportunities, and the drugs and gang problems we have, this can prove to be a toxic mix.

  124. Bahdresh — on 1st November, 2005 at 11:11 am  

    I dont believe you. You’re deliberatley trying to paint us black.

  125. funkg — on 1st November, 2005 at 12:30 pm  

    i hope you that was tongue in cheek if then how about ‘the new black’ besides your name sounds indian/hindu to me corect me if i am wrong.
    anyway what’s the point of me lying about this bahdresh? Do I have to somehow prove to you some of the work I do with british Bangladeshi youths in TH? The prison visits, probation etc? you only have to read our local papers, or read last weeks guardian for some of my points to be verified. for instance ‘statistics’ recently showed that the gcse exams results in tower hamlets had risen, great! but look closer and you will find that those ‘increases’ were due to students taking gnvq exams, far easier to do with less cachet to the average employer or educational establishment.

  126. NorahJones — on 1st November, 2005 at 6:32 pm  

    Has anybody actually seen the Ligali forums and seen the way they discuss Asians, Whites, in fact any other group of people bar Africans? Its vile.

    Tara:

    “Hiya,

    Just a quick point of information:
    The correct term when referring to people of African origin in the UK is African-Caribbean or African British – as one would refer to people of Asian origin in the UK as Asians or British Asian.
    The term “Blacks” is offensive when not used with terms such as “Browns” or “Whites”.

    Thank you.”

    Well can anyone tell me why on Ligali they refer to White people as “blue”, asians as brown and can someone please explain what “grey” is?

  127. reshma — on 2nd November, 2005 at 10:40 am  

    hey guys i was just reading your comments and i just wanted to say why dont the asian community sort the differences between themselves first.i remember being put down by asians because i was dark.as for the riots pllez dont tell me asians are innocent.thts bollox.they are as racist as the africans.how lame is it to say women judge based on emotions.not every woman is like that.there again dont asian men think they are better than women.

  128. Ash — on 14th November, 2005 at 8:58 pm  

    Firstly, no disrespect to nobody posting here, but the way the asian gang (not gangs) involved in the riots are being portrayed by you guys is misleading to readers, it leads people to believe that the criminals from both pakistani and afro carribean (not african british) communities planned the riot. Take this from someone who was there when it was happening, this was not the case. The pakistani’s only grouped up after shops were attacked, the afro carribean lads were’nt only doing damage in lozells, they were standing on corners throwing bricks at passing traffic, they dragged an old man from his car and attacked
    him whilst igniting the car, old men and they’re families were attacked at the doorstep of their homes with bricks and machetes. You guys don’t understand what was happening because you were’nt in the worst of it, your making judgments by what you’ve seen and heard on the news. I agree there were criminals amongst the asian gang but they were’nt there to protect drug territory, it was about protecting your community. It wasn’t about local gangs Vs each other, it was afro-carribeans (local and foriegn) grouping together to attack asians. It’s been said that the asian’s should have stayed inside and let it blow over, now picture this, riots in lozells, all local police are focused there, not one police officer in sight on any street 100 metres from main riot area, but there are afro-carribean youth on corners causing damage to property and people and no police around, also you see armed gangs of 20 or more walking around to find victims, it wont be long until they do, and cars speeding around with gunmen inside, are you supposed to allow that to happen, what would that mean to those guy’s, that they can do what they like and asian’s would sit back and take it, you have to understand that during such times everything
    is political, those asians who believe that the pakistani’s did wrong by reacting need to think how they would manage walking around with their eyes to the floor everytime they see an afro-carribean youth (because of the confidence they have gained), would you feel safe? What if you walked pass an older afro-carribean, what would he think of your community (Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi = asian), well what would you think of a community which stays in doors while they’re fathers/brothers/sisters are being attacked whilst at work or on their way home. What our boys did was give the “ASIAN” community some respect (whether the afro community admit it or not) and also provided a deterrent to those who may wish to kick off again. Remember there were foreign afro’s involved and if no one did anything it would have encouraged many more to come, when would the violence against asians have ended, think about your kids and compare what their futurewould have been like, with the way things were 10/15 years ago when the violence was one way, from afro’s towards asians, remember the mugging/beatings, bricks through you windows. Things are totally different now and if we all ‘stay inside’ were gonna start going backwards. Murdering innocents is evil and if those that died were then those responsible are wrong but understand that during that weekend asians were defending themselves and they’re communities against agressors armed with guns and knives, think about it, how can one over react when dealing with gun wielding individuals who are cowardly enough to use them over the slightest thing. They choose to ‘live by the gun’, so have to be dealt with ‘by the gun’.
    It can be understood that lawful people loath drug dealers/criminals, which exist in all communities, but we all live in an less than perfect world and believe me when criminally minded individuals from other communities choose to attack you because the colour of you skin, you’ll be relieved to know that they’re are also criminally minded people within your community which will counter attack, and its the same qualities which make them criminals that allow them to deal with our attackers.
    So love em or hate em, don’t shift the blame, because whether you choose to admit we need people like that as not every racist piece of scum out there believes in peaceful protest.

    And why is everybody making out like the pakistani’s caused much trouble, hundreds of them were held back by police. They didn’t damage black businesses or beat up old men, they wanted to get at those causing the trouble, if there weren’t no police not many of them afro’s would have gone home that night, because our lads ain’t stopping until everyone of them involved is finished or gone.

    RESHMA : By no means are asians innocent when it comes to racism, but the riots were the product of a group of afro’s who don’t represent the black community, hijacking a cause to attack asian people, the response was between pakistani lads and those afro’s involved and not the black community.

    We need to rebuld the sections of the bridges that have been damaged and make them stronger so this never happens again.

    PEACE……

  129. Sunny — on 14th November, 2005 at 9:49 pm  

    Hmm.. interesting comments Ash. Will keep them in mind for referencing this in the future.

  130. susano — on 14th November, 2005 at 10:02 pm  

    “and can someone please explain what “grey” is? ”

    *raises hand*

    Nora, I can! I think this might not be the place for it, though. Meet me on the UFO boards, LOL!

  131. susano — on 14th November, 2005 at 10:15 pm  

    In Los Angeles, during the “Rodney King” riots, blacks burned hundreds of Asian establishments (mainly Korean). There is huge resentment over Asian immigrants making money off of poor black people.

  132. Sunita — on 30th November, 2005 at 6:17 pm  

    i saw first hand wat happened during the riots, black lads were attacking anything that was owned by asians or whites. believe it or not we only want peace, like the way way it was before all this.

  133. Ash — on 2nd December, 2005 at 5:54 pm  

    ain’t gonna happen until black people sort the mess they’re communities are in, and work on bettering themselves instead of sitting back and watching other communities do exactly that and then becoming jeleous of they’re success, were both from the same area, and we both know that black people around us have got money, drug gangs especially, but they don’t do anything constructive with it, it’s blown on cars, motor bikes, clubs etc, and then complain about poverty, having money doesn’t make you rich, knowing what to do with it does, also a lot of black people don’t trust one another, they’re stuck in a cycle and have given up, so how do they go forward?

  134. vicky — on 5th December, 2005 at 5:01 pm  

    Hi everyone,

    I’ve just been reading all of your comments and would like to ask rather a favour than a question. So here it goes…

    I am from Birmingham but I am studying at the University of Sheffield for a degree in Town Planning. Obviously I am concerned with problems that happen in my city and I am doing a module called “Community Planning”. For part of this module I have to produce an essay relating issues of community to policies in government.

    The favour I want to ask is would any of you mind if I ‘quoted’ some of your comments made on this board as it is a situation which people need to be made aware of. Although I see no-where that your comments are copyright, I thought it only polite to ask if anyone had any objections to me doing this. I hope however, that there wont be because some good, valid and interesting points have been raised which I think would back up the majority of my argument in this essay.

    Thanks, Vicky

  135. Ash — on 6th December, 2005 at 8:40 pm  

    vicky, like u said, there’s no copyright, so quote away, but don’t be twisting anything by adding your own theories on what the quotes are actually saying, because there’s too much bullsh~t being spread about what actually happened by people who know nothing as they weren’t there when it happened, so take this into account when selecting your quotes, good luck with your essay.

    If u don’t mind me asking, what argument are u trying to back up?

  136. Ash — on 6th December, 2005 at 8:43 pm  

    also, if u quoting from my comment’s make sure u correct any spelling mistakes before hand…

  137. Sunny — on 6th December, 2005 at 10:23 pm  

    Sure Vicky, go for it.

  138. vicky — on 7th December, 2005 at 4:05 pm  

    Thanks guys!

    Ash I wont twist anything that has been said on here I am not that kind of person….I just think it would give a different angle to my essay which I’m hoping to do quite well in. Planning is an extremely diverse subject which can cover many areas but for this essay I’m going to look at social exclusion in the community and how from a planning perspective it could be improved and using issues from my home town makes it more relevant to me! If you I could mail you a copy of it if you like once I have completed it! Just for a bit of light reading :)

    Cheers Sunny! All I need now….is a lot of luck and hope I can get it completed on time :)

    Vicky

  139. Ash — on 9th December, 2005 at 12:29 am  

    thank’s for offering me a copy, send it to:

    ashh187@hotmail.com

    thank’s Vicky.

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